My impression of Staff Fighting (numerical and otherwise)


Abyssus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
And the bottom line is, the game is all about having fun.
It seems to boil down to those that are actually playing the game having fun doing so and those arguing about....whatever the heck they are arguing about.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

I'm not going to crunch numbers, and get confused when others do. The character I have using staff is doing quite well, thank you very much. At level 3 he was able to take on level 5 minions with out any problems.

Yes, it takes a little longer to put opponents down, but the defensive bonuses that the staff offers seems to off set this quite nicely.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
That's exactly what you are doing. Sets are played differently, so ther is NO SUCH THING as "equivalent rotations" to compare.
Alright, shut down the scrapper/brute forums. They seem to take quite a bit of stock in the idea of equivalent rotations, to the point literally thousands of posts around the topic. You might not care about it, but many people do believe that the time it takes to defeat something is important.

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I think you will find that is exactly what everyone believes you are doing...
In most of my comparisons, I have deliberately tried NOT to do that. Trust me, I'd look like a much bigger @$$ if I tried to compare Staff using a lower damage chain for defensive purposes to DM, TW, etc. using their highest damage chain.

At this point, you are basically saying that I am wrong for massaging the numbers, and then pressuring me to massage much more blatantly.

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I'm not talking about helping or hindering staff. I am talking about valid and invalid assumptions. People do not use the best DPA attack, there are a great many other factors to take into account, from building fury to looking cool.
You don't care about balance considerations, but that doesn't mean they aren't important. You can't use the nebulous reasoning of "people don't use the best DPA attack..." simply because some people do things for concept or to exploit different sides of the game, because it ignores damage disparities for completely non-scientific criteria. The way a person plays a set shouldn't impact the set's actual abilities. I could play a fire blaster without ever using blaze, but that doesn't mean the developers should ignore blaze or that players should ignore it when it comes to DPS.

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Again you forget that the ATs are DIFFERENT. You claim to be familiar with Brutes, yet seem to have no idea that since fury is responsible for a significant amount of their damage output, and thus FoB worth comparatively less, and hence the equivalent benefit of FoM and FoS is larger.
And brutes also have a higher resistance cap, allowing to take advantage of the +resistance of FoB. And while they don't do more damage in single target using FoB, arguably the AoE advantage remains the same because of the -resistance from Eye.

Obviously what you say is true about the relative benefit of FoB's +damage, but that doesn't mean FoB isn't more useful for its other benefits, and it doesn't mean that it isn't more useful for other ATs. You can't change the argument from "FoM is more useful than FoB," to "FoB isn't very good for brutes" because one is a specific argument and one is a general argument. In general, FoB >FoM. Specifically for brutes in single target situations FoM ~> FoB.

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Exactly. In normal play PEOPLE DO NOT FOCUS ON TRYING TO DO AS MUCH DAMAGE AS POSSIBLE. Ergo, your analysis is flawed.
And what do people focus on, Sherlock? Surviving? Looking cool?

Face it, the goal of the game is to defeat mobs. It is very simple, and people want to do so as fast as possible. We want to solo fast, go through missions fast, speed-run TFs and Trials, be on fast teams, etc.

Even if people want to look cool, they don't deliberately want to do less damage. Instead, they simply look to do as much damage with their restrictions. Same for survivability/end concerns, because people still want to do as much damage as possible.

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Which is why you fail. You believe you know far more about the game than you really do, wheras I am aware that there is lots I don't know, even though I have been playing since EU beta.
You completely failed the reading comprehension check on that quote. I was making the point that you fail because you assume you know more than me and that your opinion = fact. Regardless of what I feel about my game knowledge, I recognize that my opinion is only opinion, and so I try to find out the facts. You continue to assume that your opinion is worth more because of a belief that I have less knowledge, creating a circular logic chain of opinion verification that proves no points.

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If you have played staff, then try saying "I have played staff, and I have felt that it was under-performing..." and people might listen to you, rather than coming up with a pile of spurious mathematics.
I first related my personal experience in post #2 of this thread. I was first attacked for my suggestions in post #7. By the point, I had done none of this math, and mostly was just giving my impressions. Didn't seem to help convince the people that already believed their opinion was right.


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I don't need to. I don't claim to know if Staff is underperforming, overperforming, or whatever. My point is: NETHER DO YOU. If your so called "proofs" can't convince us, they sure aint going to convince the devs.
When you claim that the numbers I've posted are numerically wrong, you cannot validate that claim with anecdotal evidence. Just saying "Staff is fine IMHO" requires no proof, but you've gone beyond that to the point of trying refute numbers with feelings.



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Oh, well done, you have just disproved the entire democratic system, old chap! When are you going to tell the president he needs to step down?

here is a valuable life hint: not everything you read on the internets is true, posting a link to something doesn't convince anyone of anything. Just to show that anyone can paste a link instead of making a valid argument, here is one for you:linky
Appeal to Ridicule .

BTW, the US has a Republican system of government, not a democracy, specifically because the will of the masses is not necessarily the best for the country. And regardless, the logical fallacy of the appeal to popularity specifically doesn't apply to certain matters of politics, because democratic politics is specifically about electing the most popular politicians, rather than trying to elect the best. Regardless of whether that is the correct way to govern or not, it doesn't violate the appeal to popularity because it IS only a popularity contest.

If this form of argumentation annoys you, I'm just going to say that it annoys me as well. But I personally hate watching politics because 99% of the time they use a few illogical arguments to win elections. The Appeal to Ridicule is by far the worst, and it works like this:
  1. Politician A: How could anyone even think of supporting Politician B? His positions are ridiculous!
  2. Repeat 9000+ times, sprinkle in Ad-Hominem attacks (whether true or not), a few complete lies, etc....
  3. People who have little knowledge of political matters become afraid to support politician B because of the pressure of being ridiculed in connection, so they support politician A.
  4. Politician A begins to use Appeal to Popularity "Everyone thinks this is the right choice, so it has to be right!" and the bandwagon fallacy in order to sway voters.
  5. Politician A wins the election.

In the US, this has been the primary form of political attack for years, and has been used successfully by both parties (especially against Bush and Obama).

That sort of argument is completely unethical, and I hate seeing it used against me or in everyday affairs. Simply put, arguments that consist of "your position is ridiculous!" and "we all think X, therefore Y is false" are simply illogical and false.


TW/Elec Optimization

 

Posted

WOW....

OK, Combat quick question with a yes or no answer. Have you pm'ed the devs with your statistical analysis yet? If not when are you going to do so?


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

I focus on looking cool.

and I'm afraid to say, not liking a style of debate does not make it false, whatever link you may be able to find on the internet...

I tell you what does make something false: Invalid assumptions.


I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
WOW....

OK, Combat quick question with a yes or no answer. Have you pm'ed the devs with your statistical analysis yet? If not when are you going to do so?
I have not, for the very same reason this thread continues to bog down the general discussions board. Premium members can't send PMs.

Quote:
I focus on looking cool.

and I'm afraid to say, not liking a style of debate does not make it false, whatever link you may be able to find on the internet...

I tell you what does make something false: Invalid assumptions.
Even in this quote, you continue to mainly argue by using the absurdity argument. In this case, "how absurd is it that he has to link things to prove his point? After all, the internet lies all the time."

An argument that consists primarily of calling the opposing argument ridiculous and anecdotal evidence is not a good argument.

And while you may disagree with my "invalid assumptions," let me try and show some of those assumptions:

1. Melee powersets are sets that primarily exist to do damage in melee
2. A set that does more damage is superior to one with inferior damage without the consideration of other factors
3. Survivability and endurance are secondary to damage in a damage powerset
4. Balance metrics should take into account the damage a powerset CAN do, ie the maximum damage a powerset can dish out when focused on damage

Those aren't ridiculous assumptions. They are the basic assumptions of quite a few players that care about this type of thing. Just because you don't care doesn't mean that those people are wrong, it means you have a difference of opinion.


TW/Elec Optimization

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat View Post

Even in this quote, you continue to mainly argue by using the absurdity argument. In this case, "how absurd is it that he has to link things to prove his point? After all, the internet lies all the time."
Yes. Your arguments are absurd. Your attempt to argue that the absurdity argument is absurd is absurd. Your attmpt to use the internet to prove ANYTHING is absurd.

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1. Melee powersets are sets that primarily exist to do damage in melee
Invalid

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2. A set that does more damage is superior to one with inferior damage without the consideration of other factors
Invalid

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3. Survivability and endurance are secondary to damage in a damage powerset
invalid

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4. Balance metrics should take into account the damage a powerset CAN do, ie the maximum damage a powerset can dish out when focused on damage
invalid

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They are the basic assumptions of quite a few players that care about this type of thing. Just because you don't care doesn't mean that those people are wrong, it means you have a difference of opinion.
Sure, some players care about that kind of thing (but in that case, why are they playing this MMO, rather than one where developers are obsessive about balance and actually make content based on challenge rather than fun?). But for those who care about that kind of thing, the solution already exists: don't play staff (on a scrapper).

For the rest of use: leave us alone, we are having fun.


I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat View Post
I have not, for the very same reason this thread continues to bog down the general discussions board. Premium members can't send PMs.
Okies, but at this point I don't see what good arguing with fellow players about this is doing. I would be happy to forward a well put together letter on your behalf if you choose to do so.

Otherwise carry on.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Invalid
Invalid
invalid
invalid
I wouldn't go quite that far:

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1. Melee powersets are sets that primarily exist to do damage in melee
That one is actually true. That doesn't mean secondary effects are not also significant, any more than a Tanker's secondary is insignificant.

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2. A set that does more damage is superior to one with inferior damage without the consideration of other factors
Well that's obviously true, and a truism. When the only thing you consider is damage, the set with the higher damage is better. Of course, whether you should only consider damage is a separate question.

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3. Survivability and endurance are secondary to damage in a damage powerset
Also true, as above. Just as dealing damage is secondary to taking aggro for a tanker.

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4. Balance metrics should take into account the damage a powerset CAN do, ie the maximum damage a powerset can dish out when focused on damage
Also true, but critically this is *not* a primary consideration. Its a secondary marginal consideration. How much it actually deals in actual play counts for far more than the theoretical maximum possible under controlled conditions. Core balance metrics take reasonable nominal damage output into account. Maximum possible damage is looked at as an edge case.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat View Post
1. Melee powersets are sets that primarily exist to do damage in melee
2. A set that does more damage is superior to one with inferior damage without the consideration of other factors
3. Survivability and endurance are secondary to damage in a damage powerset
4. Balance metrics should take into account the damage a powerset CAN do, ie the maximum damage a powerset can dish out when focused on damage

What you just wrote in 4 points you could have summed up in one: "Maximum possible damage obtained from a perfect chain is all that matters when determining the power of a melee set." And I firmly disagree with you.

But that's irrelevant, because you still haven't demonstrated that Staff Fighting fails to generate actual damage. You've demonstrated that it fails to generate CombatDamage, an idiosyncratic measurement that no doubt produces some number, as any "analysis" would, but a number whose value is of questionable predictive ability except to itself and its creator.


 

Posted

This thread got funny since I last skimmed it.

It did prove one of my theories correct though:

An imperfect understanding of how something works, compounded with the delusional belief that the understanding is in fact perfect tends to lead to some interesting conversations.

Combat is just flailing wildly at this point. In fact, the attempts at logic are starting to remind me of the Barb Swipe animation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

I think Staff looks amazing.
Fun to play too...


Virtue and Freedom
Hi, my name is Northman, and I am an Altoholic. No wait, I'm Lost Nova, no wait, Arc Havoc, no, Dragon Moon, no, Lord Fury......

 

Posted

Just fwooshed my way through Heather Townshend's arc on x6, tier 1 musculature my only incarnate goodie so far. Staff worked exactly as I predicted it would: exceptionally well. One death against the talons of vengeance of all things when all three bosses in the spawn hit build up at the same time and I neglected to get out of the way, no deaths against the tsoo or pantheon. My plan was to use purple inspirations judiciously but in reality they were fairly unnecessary; for the last two missions I didn't use any inspirations at all save obviously for the final fight. This was possible for a variety of reasons, from guarded spin's amazing usefulness in high end chains to having sufficient aoe damage to chew dangerous lieutenants up rapidly and en masse to having appropriate control powers immediately available any time a problem enemy was present.

As it happens I can think of an easier way to sum all of that up: Staff is a stellar set.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Just fwooshed my way through Heather Townshend's arc on x6, tier 1 musculature my only incarnate goodie so far. Staff worked exactly as I predicted it would: exceptionally well. One death against the talons of vengeance of all things when all three bosses in the spawn hit build up at the same time and I neglected to get out of the way, no deaths against the tsoo or pantheon. My plan was to use purple inspirations judiciously but in reality they were fairly unnecessary; for the last two missions I didn't use any inspirations at all save obviously for the final fight. This was possible for a variety of reasons, from guarded spin's amazing usefulness in high end chains to having sufficient aoe damage to chew dangerous lieutenants up rapidly and en masse to having appropriate control powers immediately available any time a problem enemy was present.

As it happens I can think of an easier way to sum all of that up: Staff is a stellar set.
What form are you using? Sounds great. What is your secondary?


Virtue and Freedom
Hi, my name is Northman, and I am an Altoholic. No wait, I'm Lost Nova, no wait, Arc Havoc, no, Dragon Moon, no, Lord Fury......

 

Posted

Whoops, I meant knives of vengeance there, as the talons clearly are not featured in that arc (and getting killed by the talons would be less embarrassing).

Staff/elec scrapper. I wanted to mix things up from my normal strategy so I shot for ~34% s/l/e/n defense rather than focusing on smashing and lethal, and so far it has been seriously paying off. In addition to that I was able to get 87.5% global recharge for nearly-perma hasten which is only a little more than you need to run staff's single target and aoe chains. In spite of the fact that power sink is up like constantly and I never use it, I forgot to switch out of form of the soul for form of the body just because soul was so handy while leveling that I was essentially married to it. I even made a bind to switch between them and everything! Old habits, I guess.

But yeah, I can't say enough good things about this combo. It seems like staff would also be very good with the other damage aura sets, but elec caught my fancy and I'm glad I went with it.


 

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Originally Posted by Northman View Post
I think Staff looks amazing.
Fun to play too...
And a large component of that fun is that it makes lots of things a lot deader really quickly. In fact, ridiculously by level 13 staff's performance in this specific area had me constantly thinking "this would be a good time for an ambush." Because Staff is a wood chipper that just loves to be fed critters stupid enough to run up to it, rather than wait for the chipper to come to them.


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Posted

Going to roll a Staff/Elec Scrapper. Tonight. Never played Electric Armor either.


Virtue and Freedom
Hi, my name is Northman, and I am an Altoholic. No wait, I'm Lost Nova, no wait, Arc Havoc, no, Dragon Moon, no, Lord Fury......

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Whoops, I meant knives of vengeance there, as the talons clearly are not featured in that arc (and getting killed by the talons would be less embarrassing).

Staff/elec scrapper. I wanted to mix things up from my normal strategy so I shot for ~34% s/l/e/n defense rather than focusing on smashing and lethal, and so far it has been seriously paying off. In addition to that I was able to get 87.5% global recharge for nearly-perma hasten which is only a little more than you need to run staff's single target and aoe chains. In spite of the fact that power sink is up like constantly and I never use it, I forgot to switch out of form of the soul for form of the body just because soul was so handy while leveling that I was essentially married to it. I even made a bind to switch between them and everything! Old habits, I guess.

But yeah, I can't say enough good things about this combo. It seems like staff would also be very good with the other damage aura sets, but elec caught my fancy and I'm glad I went with it.
Does Electric give you any defence debuff protection?


Virtue and Freedom
Hi, my name is Northman, and I am an Altoholic. No wait, I'm Lost Nova, no wait, Arc Havoc, no, Dragon Moon, no, Lord Fury......

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northman View Post
Does Electric give you any defence debuff protection?
Nope; it doesn't offer defense either (only sets that offer significant defense offer defense debuff resistance). In terms of secondary effect resistance, Electric Armor has resistance to drain and recovery debuffs (in static shield), and some resistance to movement slows and recharge debuffs (in lightning reflexes).


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Posted

Defense debuffs are hard on it but its excellent resistance numbers plus the near-perma regen buff and frequent heal from energize tend to mean that even in ginormo-debuff situations you have a bit of time to thin out the crowd or perform a tactical rearward relocation.

Here's where I definitely don't fit in with the common wisdom: I think this combination is particularly powerful on scrappers because of the fact that enemies get scared of you so easily. If everything I pulled in Dark Astoria stuck to me like glue the no inspirations thing would not be happening. Since things run away for a few seconds before returning it's more like being the nucleus of a villain atom. I may not be able to measure where that Conqueror is going to be at any given nanosecond but sooner or later its general proximity to my whirling doom vortex will cause it to die. Any time they spend scooting around aimlessly is time not spent attacking me.

Isn't it quicker to kill stuff if it's all sitting next to you? That depends. One question is whether you'll survive its undivided attention. Without even going into that, though, my attitude is that nobody ever said I had to fight just one group at a time. As long as you maintain aggro on some members of a spawn and prevent anyone from running two hundred yards or so away from you they'll all come back eventually, so why not meet some new friends in the mean time? Older members of the probability ellipsoid are cycled out as new ones are cycled in, as nature intended. Obstacles can be used to cluster up the enemies that remain before you enter a transition they can't follow you through, such as an elevator.

That was a wild aside that didn't really have a lot to do with the topic at hand but I figured I'd bring up my playstyle since you may or may not favor the sit 'n stomp technique that's all the rage with the brutes these days. I think that this is more fun and that the results speak for themselves.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Defense debuffs are hard on it but its excellent resistance numbers plus the near-perma regen buff and frequent heal from energize tend to mean that even in ginormo-debuff situations you have a bit of time to thin out the crowd or perform a tactical rearward relocation.

Here's where I definitely don't fit in with the common wisdom: I think this combination is particularly powerful on scrappers because of the fact that enemies get scared of you so easily. If everything I pulled in Dark Astoria stuck to me like glue the no inspirations thing would not be happening. Since things run away for a few seconds before returning it's more like being the nucleus of a villain atom. I may not be able to measure where that Conqueror is going to be at any given nanosecond but sooner or later its general proximity to my whirling doom vortex will cause it to die. Any time they spend scooting around aimlessly is time not spent attacking me.

Isn't it quicker to kill stuff if it's all sitting next to you? That depends. One question is whether you'll survive its undivided attention. Without even going into that, though, my attitude is that nobody ever said I had to fight just one group at a time. As long as you maintain aggro on some members of a spawn and prevent anyone from running two hundred yards or so away from you they'll all come back eventually, so why not meet some new friends in the mean time? Older members of the probability ellipsoid are cycled out as new ones are cycled in, as nature intended. Obstacles can be used to cluster up the enemies that remain before you enter a transition they can't follow you through, such as an elevator.

That was a wild aside that didn't really have a lot to do with the topic at hand but I figured I'd bring up my playstyle since you may or may not favor the sit 'n stomp technique that's all the rage with the brutes these days. I think that this is more fun and that the results speak for themselves.
Thanks for the feedback! What ancillary are you running?


Virtue and Freedom
Hi, my name is Northman, and I am an Altoholic. No wait, I'm Lost Nova, no wait, Arc Havoc, no, Dragon Moon, no, Lord Fury......

 

Posted

None of the above. Pretty tight build up to 49 and then I had one throwaway power so I picked up focused accuracy, slotted with one common endurance IO for major -tohit situations. Haven't actually used it yet but it may be handy some day. I didn't have enough spare slots to give more than the default one to confront so I definitely wasn't going to have enough to use for a non-essential level 49 power. I guess body mastery is the obvious choice for burning power picks, but staff/elec is uniquely indifferent to conserve power so focused acc is the only one I found to be worth considering.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
This thread got funny since I last skimmed it.

It did prove one of my theories correct though:

An imperfect understanding of how something works, compounded with the delusional belief that the understanding is in fact perfect tends to lead to some interesting conversations.

Combat is just flailing wildly at this point. In fact, the attempts at logic are starting to remind me of the Barb Swipe animation.
I'm glad you gained some humor from this thread, but I don't think you need to insult me to get a point across.

But let me get this clear:

I NEVER believed I had a perfect understanding of this sort of stuff. It's why I didn't start of this thread with a ton of bad calculations, because I wanted it to mostly be the general feeling I got from the set, which would be fine if I were in favor of it but apparently is horrible when I disapprove of it.

In fact, most of my flailing at the AoE stuff earlier was to try and gain an understanding of how to make an effective process to compare that part of the game. I didn't do it because I thought I knew everything about everything in this game, but because I wanted to know more.

I'm guessing you are attacking my use of the linked logical fallacies when you say that I am reminiscent of probably the worse melee attack in the game.

However, in a way that is disconnected from the reality of this specific argument, most of what I'm saying is true, regardless of whether or not Staff is underpowered.

An argument that basically exists as "What he is saying is ridiculous" without other evidence isn't a valid argument. This is also true of arguments whose form is basically just derisive attacks at the opposition.

Technically even the argument "Combat doesn't know what he is talking about, therefore he is wrong" isn't logically true. That argument is actually the classic form of the Ad Hominem attack.

All of what I said about anecdotal evidence is also pretty much true, regardless of the validity of my data or methods. Anecdotal evidence by itself isn't convincing, because there is no way to guarantee that a person will experience the same thing. Personally, I found my TW character to be very easy to level and the momentum mechanic to be not at all frustrating, but I don't use that as evidence for TW because I can't guarantee my experience to everyone that played it. However, I can guarantee that Barb Swipe will do less damage than Headsplitter, because it will remain constant regardless of the situation or the person that use's those respective sets.


TW/Elec Optimization

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat View Post
I NEVER believed I had a perfect understanding of this sort of stuff. It's why I didn't start of this thread with a ton of bad calculations, because I wanted it to mostly be the general feeling I got from the set, which would be fine if I were in favor of it but apparently is horrible when I disapprove of it.
Actually, from almost the very beginning you were using numbers and calculations, and not observational judgment, to justify your impressions of the set.You stated you were leveling a staff character at the time, which implied that your impressions of the set did not come from experience, but rather from your impression of the raw numbers of the set, which is de facto calculation-based judgment. And even throwing all numbers out, there's still a divergence between your analysis and my actual in-game experience with the set, vis-a-vis your contention that combat always winnows down to one or a few high health targets. My specific experience at all levels suggests that with Staff that's not generally true when using the AoEs often.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Actually, from almost the very beginning you were using numbers and calculations, and not observational judgment, to justify your impressions of the set.You stated you were leveling a staff character at the time, which implied that your impressions of the set did not come from experience, but rather from your impression of the raw numbers of the set, which is de facto calculation-based judgment. And even throwing all numbers out, there's still a divergence between your analysis and my actual in-game experience with the set, vis-a-vis your contention that combat always winnows down to one or a few high health targets. My specific experience at all levels suggests that with Staff that's not generally true when using the AoEs often.
However, you ignore the fact that I am playing essentially a completely different version of Staff. In my experience, as a stalker, it does narrow down to a few high health targets. That has been my experience with most of my previous characters as well, especially when teaming. It is possibly that Stalkers get by far the worst deal out of all the staff characters, considering how much stock everyone else is putting in the other forms and having all the AoEs (and early).

And impressions can be of numbers as well as of game-play. In this sense, I used impression as "well, I having tried to make a formula yet to be numerically sure, but it seems a little weak at first glance." And it still does... in single target, which I admit I spend too much time focusing on. In my first post, most of my calculations actually were quite positive, but were based on a single specific build and playstyle. My other 'calculations' were just comparisons of DPAs and pretty basic single target comparisons.


TW/Elec Optimization