My impression of Staff Fighting (numerical and otherwise)
By
Abyssus,
Posted on: 2012-04-17 19:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
The devs don't balance the game that way. They design around performance SOs and try to give thought about what IOs will allow a set to do. They do not assume IOs, but they do not ignore them either.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Are we choosing to ignore IOs? I disagree. As they are now part of the monetary business model, while they may be ignored (questionable) in game balance, they are easy to get during this point, eight years later, since launch. Granted they weren't out at launch.
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| So, yes. It's a serious question. What defines a Defense Set? Titan Weapons has a lot of soft mitigation in Stuns, Knockdowns, and raw damage. Is it not a Defensive Set unless it has also +DEF, +RES, and/or a Heal? TW has +DEF. Is it not a Defensive Set now? |
Lots of sets have stuns and knockdowns, but I do not generally consider them "defensive sets". I consider them sets that have mitigation in them. It's only when the degree of mitigation is so strong that it becomes a dominant factor in how the set plays across large categories of situations do I consider a set to be a "defensive" set. I believe Dark Melee has that in Siphon Life. I believe Katana and Broadsword have historically held that label due to Parry/GD, though I believe the benefit of those has slowly degraded over time as the devs have given more and more ranged attacks to critters that have no Lethal component. So I think that, in the modern game, TW deserves an honorable mention for offering Smashing/Melee defense, but it's definitely not what dominates its performance. It's an incredibly offense-oriented set, with some mitigation benefits.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Actually, for a significant contingent of the playerbase, usually referred to as "the vast majority of all players", who actually level their characters and don't twink them out with massive invention builds before reaching the level cap, Staff Fighting probably is, in many respects, a top tier set. It can make a nearly full AoE chain before many sets can make a full single chain. It can power continuous AoE offense on top of toggles before heavy invention slotting. It can offer powerset combinations without unlimited endurance extra endurance management and powerset combinations with unlimited endurance extra recharge. It packages this up with stackable self +Def and a combo system that doesn't care what order to use your attacks.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
The thing is people are in the game right now on Staff toons killing X8 spawns so the call that the set is under performing is hogwash and the devs and most players know this.
Nobody here is saying it is top tier, but to say that it is under performing is ridiculous and false. |
As long as you are fighting two or more things most of the time and running an SO or common IO build, Staff is going to do extremely well against other melee offensive options *including* Titan Weapons in real gameplay.
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But Staff Fighting is a "Defensive" Set (Which is still the stupidest title ever, can we change this? They're not this term), because it offers Lethal instead of Smashing, and Resistance from the 'worst' of the Forms? 7.5% (10%) Resistance is good, but Sky Splitter is anything but, combined with Form of the Body being the ho-hum of the forms. Especially on Brutes and Tankers, who get diminished use from the drop-in-the-bucket Form Bonus.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
The devs don't balance the game that way. They design around performance SOs and try to give thought about what IOs will allow a set to do. They do not assume IOs, but they do not ignore them either.
The only reason I would consider it a defensive set is because of its +DEF. +Smashing defense is considerably weaker in general than +Lethal defense because of the way so many ranged -DEF debuffs are delivered on Lethal-typed attacks. +Melee defense is, of course, useful against melee-typed attacks. Lots of sets have stuns and knockdowns, but I do not generally consider them "defensive sets". I consider them sets that have mitigation in them. It's only when the degree of mitigation is so strong that it becomes a dominant factor in how the set plays across large categories of situations do I consider a set to be a "defensive" set. I believe Dark Melee has that in Siphon Life. I believe Katana and Broadsword have historically held that label due to Parry/GD, though I believe the benefit of those has slowly degraded over time as the devs have given more and more ranged attacks to critters that have no Lethal component. So I think that, in the modern game, TW deserves an honorable mention for offering Smashing/Melee defense, but it's definitely not what dominates its performance. It's an incredibly offense-oriented set, with some mitigation benefits. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, for a significant contingent of the playerbase, usually referred to as "the vast majority of all players", who actually level their characters and don't twink them out with massive invention builds before reaching the level cap, Staff Fighting probably is, in many respects, a top tier set. It can make a nearly full AoE chain before many sets can make a full single chain. It can power continuous AoE offense on top of toggles before heavy invention slotting. It can offer powerset combinations without unlimited endurance extra endurance management and powerset combinations with unlimited endurance extra recharge. It packages this up with stackable self +Def and a combo system that doesn't care what order to use your attacks.
As long as you are fighting two or more things most of the time and running an SO or common IO build, Staff is going to do extremely well against other melee offensive options *including* Titan Weapons in real gameplay. |
In the end? Strong SO Set, weak IO set for Non-Stalkers due to the lack of true growth from +RECH.
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Completely ignoring everything except its offensive output, I would say Staff Fighting's offensive output is within the desired range of melee offensive sets.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Probably. But does this suggest Staff Fighting's Single Target is 'balanced'? Is the reduced quality warranted from it's secondary Gimmick powers, and three AoE's that aren't overly impressive?
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In fact, since Staff does far better than most sets in the early levels (i.e. every level before 47) due to its enhanced endurance and/or recharge, and since as you point out you can build anything to take x8 in the end game with a strong enough invention build, I would say that Staff's advantages more than counterbalance its disadvantages, since when its strong there are few alternatives for other sets to catch up, and where its (debatably) weaker everyone is ultra strong anyway and the difference is unnoticeable.
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Does that mean anything in a vacuum? Sets should be judged relatively as well as absolutely, and set is comparitively worse than most melee sets at damage. It doesn't have the potential to knock off the top performers, and can be demonstrably proved to be one of the worst single target DPS sets. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
The thing is people are in the game right now on Staff toons killing X8 spawns so the call that the set is under performing is hogwash and the devs and most players know this.
Nobody here is saying it is top tier, but to say that it is under performing is ridiculous and false. |
Given enough resources, virtually any powerset/AT combination can defeat x8 spawns. That doesn't necessarily mean balance disparities don't exist, and being able to achieve that level of performance shouldn't automatically disqualify a set from potential positive changes.
TW/Elec Optimization
So I recently got my Staff/Energy Aura Brute to 50+1.
Staff is fun to play. The animations are flashy. The utility of the forms is nice.
That said, I do miss having a "Build Up" type power on my Brute. I find myself instinctively pressing my hot key for it as I'm playing.
I'm not a numbers person when it comes to DPA/DPS but it "feels" low to me. It may be that numerically this set in on par with other damage sets, but the speed of the attacks and low upfront damage feels weak to me. I guess I'm just a fan of the big wind up powersets like Titan Weapons, Super Strength and Broadsword.
I think I may make a Staff/Fire Armor Brute and see how that goes. Staff needs to get a weapon similar to Titan Weapon in the Fire&Ice packs.
Anyways, that's my 2inf.
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I agree on most of these points, although there is one thing to note; Staff's lack of a Power Hitter is probably it's big issue, since Sky Splitter is a terribly inefficient attack and Serpent's Reach is a gimmick power.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Completely ignoring everything except its offensive output, I would say Staff Fighting's offensive output is within the desired range of melee offensive sets.
In fact, since Staff does far better than most sets in the early levels (i.e. every level before 47) due to its enhanced endurance and/or recharge, and since as you point out you can build anything to take x8 in the end game with a strong enough invention build, I would say that Staff's advantages more than counterbalance its disadvantages, since when its strong there are few alternatives for other sets to catch up, and where its (debatably) weaker everyone is ultra strong anyway and the difference is unnoticeable. |
If this issue had been addressed before, it'd be far better off. It's unfortunate that dev-side decided Sky Splitter needed the Total Focus route of "Slow but Powerful", and Serpent's Reach was just a gimmick power.
In the end, I agree; it's a strong low level and SO set. It just has no growth to speak of.
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Right now my Staff/SR Brute is getting a lot of use from the drop in the bucket mind bonus, because I don't know any other Brute combination that I get to level while running all my SR toggles while running three AoEs as fast as they recharge. The fact that I'm always soft capped to melee is just an extra bonus.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
But Staff Fighting is a "Defensive" Set (Which is still the stupidest title ever, can we change this? They're not this term), because it offers Lethal instead of Smashing, and Resistance from the 'worst' of the Forms? 7.5% (10%) Resistance is good, but Sky Splitter is anything but, combined with Form of the Body being the ho-hum of the forms. Especially on Brutes and Tankers, who get diminished use from the drop-in-the-bucket Form Bonus.
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I entirely agree that Staff Fighting is an amazing SO set, with very little, if no, room to grow. I won't argue something I agree with. BUT, I can see where people are saying that it's Single Target is just not even worth mentioning, because it's not. It's lack of IO worthy growth is also shun-worthy at the high-end tweak game, sans for Stalkers since they have Assassin's Strike. In the end? Strong SO Set, weak IO set for Non-Stalkers due to the lack of true growth from +RECH. |
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If there is one attack I would change in Staff, its probably Sky Splitter. But I don't think the set underperforms with Sky Splitter in its current configuration. I just think its cast time is too high given the normal design rules for attack sets. It should probably be no higher than 2.17s, or it should have been a cone. I have a nagging suspicion the power got trapped between those two decisions, and ended up with single target damage in a cone cast time.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
I agree on most of these points, although there is one thing to note; Staff's lack of a Power Hitter is probably it's big issue, since Sky Splitter is a terribly inefficient attack and Serpent's Reach is a gimmick power.
If this issue had been addressed before, it'd be far better off. It's unfortunate that dev-side decided Sky Splitter needed the Total Focus route of "Slow but Powerful", and Serpent's Reach was just a gimmick power. In the end, I agree; it's a strong low level and SO set. It just has no growth to speak of. |
To repeat: I don't think the set underperforms with Sky Splitter. I just think sky splitter doesn't have the numbers it should. Eagle's Claw should be at the outer limits of lower DPA for an attack like that, because the only reason EC even has the DPA it does is to preserve the backflip animation, or it would currently have better DPA. No comparable attack, in my opinion, should go lower than EC's DPA.
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I'm surprised you'd willingly use Eye of the Storm on a single target AV with a 7.5% -Resistance value, considering EotS is EASILY the worst of attack of the set, especially on a Single Target.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Right now my Staff/SR Brute is getting a lot of use from the drop in the bucket mind bonus, because I don't know any other Brute combination that I get to level while running all my SR toggles while running three AoEs as fast as they recharge. The fact that I'm always soft capped to melee is just an extra bonus.
Not sure I buy that. At the extreme high end there is only room for one top build in AoE damage, so by definition everything else is subpar. But I think I'm going to be perfectly happy when I invention-out my Staff/SR and switch from Mind to Body, getting +7.5% resistance and a -7.5% resistance debuff out of it. I'll probably be around 30% resistance to smash/lethal before scaling passives in a maxed out invention build with tough. Or maybe because I don't really need recovery or recharge at the high end I could just go musculature for more damage. I believe there's still room at the top for increasing the strength of the build. |
Either way, I don't see it performing well at the high end for Scrappers/Brutes. Tankers? Sure why not. Guarded Spin and the Forms are nice. Maybe. It's lack of Single Target is a threat issue, though.
Stalkers? Assassin's Staff is silly.
Agree to Disgaree, I guess. But I do agree on your other points.
(Not to interrupt the thread or anything, but I've decided to cool my Stalker for now. This isn't due to a lack of power or anything, but mainly is because I am concerned about the PPM change, which should make the Stalker ATO far less valuable by lowering its odds of firing and making it random. I don't want to put a lot of effort/investment into the character with such a large playstyle change on the way)
TW/Elec Optimization
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I'm not sure I would, but then again even at level 50, I'm rarely fighting a single solitary AV solo. Solo, it probably is not a good option. In teams, the -7.5% resistance debuff affects the entire team, and I'm not religious about my floating numbers: whatever kills the target faster is what I'm going to do, and I'll let philosophy majors decide if its "my damage" or not. In those circumstances, EotS might be the best attack, simply because in a large enough team the net effect of resistance debuffs are amplified strongly.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
I'm surprised you'd willingly use Eye of the Storm on a single target AV with a 7.5% -Resistance value, considering EotS is EASILY the worst of attack of the set, especially on a Single Target.
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I'm seeing a Superior version of the proc right at the 90% cap, even at ED-"max" recharge. I can't see a change from 100% to 90% chance as a large playstyle change". I'm going to play exactly the same way, and I'll get slightly less numerical benefit for doing so. It's still going to be the optimal way to play.
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Originally Posted by Combat
(Not to interrupt the thread or anything, but I've decided to cool my Stalker for now. This isn't due to a lack of power or anything, but mainly is because I am concerned about the PPM change, which should make the Stalker ATO far less valuable by lowering its odds of firing and making it random. I don't want to put a lot of effort/investment into the character with such a large playstyle change on the way)
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Remind me, is that 7.5% Unresistable? if not, it'll get resisted to silly, pointless values.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm not sure I would, but then again even at level 50, I'm rarely fighting a single solitary AV solo. Solo, it probably is not a good option. In teams, the -7.5% resistance debuff affects the entire team, and I'm not religious about my floating numbers: whatever kills the target faster is what I'm going to do, and I'll let philosophy majors decide if its "my damage" or not. In those circumstances, EotS might be the best attack, simply because in a large enough team the net effect of resistance debuffs are amplified strongly.
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Originally Posted by Combat
(Not to interrupt the thread or anything, but I've decided to cool my Stalker for now. This isn't due to a lack of power or anything, but mainly is because I am concerned about the PPM change, which should make the Stalker ATO far less valuable by lowering its odds of firing and making it random. I don't want to put a lot of effort/investment into the character with such a large playstyle change on the way)
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Hrm. Your choice is logical.
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I've remarked on this before, but I dislike randomness in my characters if it is not absolutely necessary. I disliked the HO change solely because it randomized a character than I enjoyed because of his consistency. Even with a 90% chance to succeed, the proc change would make the character far less fun to play just because of the 14.5% chance to fail for no good reason (assuming that that target needs to be hit for the proc to work, which would make the chance for the proc to actually off to be 95%*90%=85.5%). |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm seeing a Superior version of the proc right at the 90% cap, even at ED-"max" recharge. I can't see a change from 100% to 90% chance as a large playstyle change". I'm going to play exactly the same way, and I'll get slightly less numerical benefit for doing so. It's still going to be the optimal way to play.
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Maybe for some people, it wouldn't be annoying, but to me it would seriously impact the feel of the game. Random annoyance =/ fun in any way for me. Indeed, the main reason I became a mids junkie was because I wanted to design a character that didn't have random weaknesses to large portions of the game, in many case sacrificing actual performance for consistency. Oddly, I don't really mind the inconsistency of procs if they a low chance to fire, but having a 90% chance makes it so that I am annoyed when it doesn't proc.
In fact, I wouldn't mind removing the 95% cap for accuracy. It doesn't make gameplay any more interesting, just annoying.
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A change that isn't finalized, that is probably 6+ Months down the line? Hrm. Your choice is logical. |
TW/Elec Optimization
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That is never true for resistance debuffs, even resisted ones. 7.5% resistible resistance debuff always translates into 7.5% increase in applied DPS.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Remind me, is that 7.5% Unresistable? if not, it'll get resisted to silly, pointless values.
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I can go through the math if you would like. (That's not snark, it's a genuine offer, but I don't want to assume you need a proof.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
... So even if the 7.5% is reduced by 95%, it's still a 7.5% Damage Increase? Okay, I didn't know that. By all means, educate.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
That is never true for resistance debuffs, even resisted ones. 7.5% resistible resistance debuff always translates into 7.5% increase in applied DPS.
I can go through the math if you would like. (That's not snark, it's a genuine offer, but I don't want to assume you need a proof.) |
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If it is reduced by 95%, the target will have 95% resistances. No other effect in the game reduces resistance.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
... So even if the 7.5% is reduced by 95%, it's still a 7.5% Damage Increase? Okay, I didn't know that. By all means, educate.
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Therefore, the debuff would reduce damage by 0.375%
Say you used a 100 damage attack. The resistances would reduce it to 5 damage. The resistances after the resistance debuff, however, are reduced to 94.625%. Therefore, the attack would deal 5.375 damage after resistance debuffs.
5.375/5=1.075, or a damage improvement of 7.5%
TW/Elec Optimization
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AVs don't have that "special resistance" to resistance debuffs. They can't, because by definition** resistance to resistance debuffs is resistance: its damage resistance. The only way the devs can add 95% resistance to resistance debuffs is to actually make the AV 95% resistant to all damage.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
... So even if the 7.5% is reduced by 95%, it's still a 7.5% Damage Increase? Okay, I didn't know that. By all means, educate.
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And even in that case, a -7.5% resistance debuff would increase your, and all of your team mates' damage, by 7.5% as Uberguy states.
Edit: Also as Combat states.
** The game engine doesn't support "resistance to debuffs." Resistance to debuffs is resistance period. Defense debuff resistance, for example, resists all defense changes. It would resist your own ability to buff your own defense with defense toggles if those were not unresistable by design. To go even farther, defense debuff resistance would resist defense debuff resistance buffs if *those* weren't also flagged as unresistable. Defense "debuff" resistance is actually defense resistance: it resists all attempts to do anything to defense, including changing defense resistance itself, except for unresistable effects.
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DamageReceived = DamageApplied * (1 - DamageResistance)
I'm going to shorten that as...
Dr = Da * (1 - R)
So if you have 60% DR and 100 points of damage are applied to you, you suffer 40 points of damage.
ResistanceFinal = ResistanceInitial - (debuff * (1 - ResistanceInitial ))
which I'll shorten to...
R' = R - debuff * (1 - R)
So if you have 60% DR and a 10% DR debuff is applied to you, you resist 60% of the debuff and lose 4%, leaving you with 54% resistance.
Combining...
Dr = Da * (1 - R')
Dr = Da * (1 - (R - (debuff * (1 - R))))
Let's call this Dr(debuff).
Dr(debuff) = Da * (1 - (R - (debuff * (1 - R))))
When "debuff" is zero, this simplifies back down to...
Dr(0) = Da * (1 - R)
So...
Dr(debuff)/Dr(0) = (Da * (1 - (R - (debuff * (1 - R))))) / (Da * (1 - R))
Expanding and simplifying that...
Dr(debuff)/Dr(0) = (Da - Da * (R - debuff * (1 - R))) / (Da * (1 - R))
Dr(debuff)/Dr(0) = (Da - (Da * R - debuff * Da * (1 - R))) / (Da * (1 - R))
Dr(debuff)/Dr(0) = (Da - Da * R + debuff * Da * (1 - R)) / (Da * (1 - R))
Dr(debuff)/Dr(0) = (Da * (1 - R) + debuff * Da * (1 - R)) / (Da * (1 - R))
Dr(debuff)/Dr(0) = 1 + debuff
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Or, if you sometimes get lazy like me:|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Expanding and simplifying that...
Dr(debuff)/Dr(0) = (Da - Da * (R - debuff * (1 - R)))) / (Da * (1 - R)) Dr(debuff)/Dr(0) = (Da - (Da * R - debuff * Da * (1 - R)) / (Da * (1 - R)) Dr(debuff)/Dr(0) = (Da - Da * R + debuff * Da * (1 - R)) / (Da * (1 - R)) Dr(debuff)/Dr(0) = (Da * (1 - R) + debuff * Da * (1 - R)) / (Da * (1 - R)) Dr(debuff)/Dr(0) = 1 + debuff |
Note: Wolfram says you put one too many parentheses, but he'll let you off with a warning this time.
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I see! Although arguably, even though it's 7.5% Damage to the team, might not edge out over the fact Eye of the Storm itself is garbage, costs you 15-20% Damage Bonus as well, the endurance cost of EotS, and so on and so on.
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I actually have the "fat client" version of Mathematica 5 installed on my PC. But that doesn't show the derivation. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Or, if you sometimes get lazy like me: ...
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Also: Parenthesis fixed... maybe. >.>
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Depends on the size of the team. Lets say that you are on a full team of eight, and you're doing about average damage compared to your team members. And lets say that using Eye of the Storm costs you three seconds of basically half your normal damage. It will then boost the damage of all the team members by 7.5% for six seconds.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
I see! Although arguably, even though it's 7.5% Damage to the team, might not edge out over the fact Eye of the Storm itself is garbage, costs you 15-20% Damage Bonus as well, the endurance cost of EotS, and so on and so on.
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For three seconds the team's damage will drop from 100% to about 93.75% Then for six seconds the team's damage will increase to 107.5%. That's a net increase. In fact, the break even seems to be around four to five players.
To a first order approximation, you have to remember that the +7.5% is multiplied by the number of players being boosted, while any relative deficit EotS causes in a reduction in damage is only suffered by one player, and the "penalty" for using EotS in DPA is suffered for only its cast time while the resistance debuff is over twice as long. So in a team of four, that +7.5% resistance debuff has effectively eight times leverage (4 players, double the duration) relative to the damage penalty of using EotS, at least in rough terms.
For sufficiently large teams and a sufficiently hard target, resistance debuffs accelerate damage faster than anything can actually deal damage on its own due to the leverage of multiplying the damage increase by a lot of separate attackers.
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Nobody here is saying it is top tier, but to say that it is under performing is ridiculous and false.
Does that make Electric Blast not underpowered? Or Blasters?
I can kill x8 Spawns with Dual Pistols Blasters, too.
Your metric is flawed and so is your argument.
It takes a lot of recharge to kill infinitely faster with Titan Weapons. But if that's what you want to do, the game offers you Titan Weapons as an option.
And while your opinion is that the best defense is overwhelming offense, there's an entire archetype that would like to suggest that the best defense is defense. Unless you can kill everything literally instantly, high offense doesn't translate to high survivability. What happens is you just end up killing faster, and thus moving quicker and facing more things, and taking a comparable level of incoming damage. That's why blasters can kill fast and still die. The faster kill speed just puts them right back into harms way quicker.
High offense is high offense. High offense is not equal to high defense. Its always been assumed that there was some equivalence between the two, but to a first order approximation there's no connection between the two at all.