Why fixing Hami-Os was a horrible idea and what can be done to correct it
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-03-29 08:43 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
I don't think I have ever seen anyone attempt to form a team to kill the flying Hamidon in the First Ward. Ever. So I doubt lvl 30 Hami-O's is enough to motivate anyone to do it.
I do beleive at some point in the future, Hamidon (whether it's Primal and/or Praetorian) will be back in the spotlight... Soon. Perhaps the devs will consider an upgrade of Hami-O's then. |
Really? Done many Seed hunts on Freedom and Exalted. I like First ward, one of my favorite spots in the whole game.
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less an increase then a restoration to full strength
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Originally Posted by SmegHead
Its risk vs reward, and the risk involved for a hamiO just isn't worth it. Not to mention the time and effort it takes to run a hami raid. Sure they are useful, just not enough to be worth it for most people. Now more than ever.
The increase in value to 50% sounds like the best idea so far. That would make them much more desireable to me. |
While I do like the idea of having a new set that would drop from Hamidon, it's somewhat difficult to make a set that's "good for everyone". Very few types of powers are used by every AT and the set bonuses would never satisfy everyone equally. The closest you could get would probably be a damage set with a recharge bonus. But then there wouldn't be anything to make the Hami set special beyond the fact that it's the Hami set.
So far the simplest, and probably most elegant solution, has been the suggestion to raise HOs back up to 50% value. I agree that it's a change which probably should have been made a long time ago.
As far as the argument that HOs are fine in their current state, the argument isn't that they are not functional and have no use. The argument is that only in special cases, or cases where a character already has them, is the utility of HOs worth anything close to the effort required to get them. Synthetic HOs certainly don't help the matter by being just as effective and incredibly easy to acquire. If HOs do receive an increase in enhancement value, it would be necessary for Synthetics to remain at the current value for the change to be effective.
Having other "special origin" enhancements be attuned is a good idea, but it is a seperate issue from increasing the importance of HOs and thereby restoring the significance of the Hami raid.
The Praetorian Hamidon will almost certainly play a role in a future incarnate trial, since such a big deal has been made about it being at war with Cole again. That will do nothing to help raids against the Primal Hamidon.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
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Sure it was the recent bug fix that has us talking about Hami-Os again in this thread. And sure the remaining Hami-Os aren't strictly "broken" or worthless at their current values.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
What I find funny about these posts is that it talks about fixing Hami-O's PLURAL as if there is something wrong with ALL Hami-O's when the REAL issue is the one with the bug exploit that was fixed.
Been using Hami's since day one.. have em on lots of characters.. Often use them to save slots on powers or to finish off something ( like adding a Nucleo to a blast set that uses 5 Decimation but falls a little short on damage and gets an accuracy boost ) Im on the totally opposite side.. I think Hami-O's work just fine the way they are and dont need to be enhanced or boosted.. And I would also say that one other reason that Hami raids are probably being run less is the new incarnate zone and everyone leveling Dark and Beast mastery toons. |
But it wasn't just recent changes/additions to the game that started to undercut the general participation in the Hami raids. One of the first true nails in the coffin that really turned most servers' Hami raids into ghost towns was the original nerfing of the Hami-Os from their starting 50% values down to their current values. In fact Hami raids became so non-existent after that nerfing that it pretty much led the Devs towards having to reorganize the way the raid worked back during Issue 9 just to entice people back into doing them at all.
So again my long-time suggestion to restore Hami-Os back to their 50% values is not in direct response to the bug fix, the new DA or Beast Mastery, although it's true those things could only be making things even worse now for Hami raid participation. Now more than ever we need some change that'll stem the tide and make Hami raids desirable again and I think restoring Hami-Os back to their original values would help with that. Hami-Os restored to 50% values would make them truly unique and special in a game where we now have many different kinds of IOs, purple IOs, PVP IOs, ATOs, enhancement converters and so on to choose from.
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This K.I.S.S. approach here makes the most sense and is practical. I doubt the devs will make a move until their data shows a HUGE decrease in Hami raids and that could take another year or two for them to pay attention to it considering past history.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I agree that this long overdue bug fix might have had the unintended side-effect of making Hami raids less desirable to do. Of course it could be said if the Devs had fixed these several years ago then we would have already been long past the negative impact this change was bound to cause.
 Regardless of the bug and its fix I have long suggested the idea that Hami-Os should be raised back up to their original 50% values. I understand why they were nerfed down all those years ago, but the reasons why that nerf was necessary no longer apply. For one thing we now live under the rule of Enhancement Diversity so 50% Hami-Os can no longer be considered "overpowered" in any power. And since the introduction of the Enhancement Boosters we can now get enhancements boosted over 50% anyway. How can 50% Hami-Os be considered unrealistic in this current environment? The ultimate benefit of restoring the original values to the Hami-Os would be to make Hami raids worth doing again. |
Another missed opportunity not to go overboard missed. I told you guys there is still some of that ultra conservative Jake taint left around here.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Fixing the Hami-Os was a solid idea and I don't mind it.
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The problem is that here a HUGE decrease means going from 2 or 3 a month to 1. That being with a much smaller group of players than previously participated. That's just not the kind of numbers that will be noticed when they have to watch an entire game full of people.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
This K.I.S.S. approach here makes the most sense and is practical. I doubt the devs will make a move until their data shows a HUGE decrease in Hami raids and that could take another year or two for them to pay attention to it considering past history.
Another missed opportunity not to go overboard missed. I told you guys there is still some of that ultra conservative Jake taint left around here. |
I'd actually welcome folding Hami and Mothership raids into the new(ish) trial system. They could be accessible via the TUT if it ever works properly, and it would give an oppurtunity to revamp them and make them more dynamic like the itrials. Of course, that's a longer term fix than simply changing HOs and I think HOs should give 50% regardless of whether or not the raids get revamped.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
I agree with the idea of giving back their original enhancement values!
that alone would allow me to decide, "slot up this power for set bonuses or slot it up with the idea of saving slots?"
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Never. I've joined several or my server channels and I have never seen anyone ever attempt it or even just to try and find players in order form one in a channel, on the broadcast, or in the help channel. Never. Admittingly, I spend almost no time in the First Ward, though. If they only form in that zone broadcast, that's on me. But in my experience the First Ward is largely vacant.
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Originally Posted by GPBunny
Really? Done many Seed hunts on Freedom and Exalted. I like First ward, one of my favorite spots in the whole game.
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I've seen several announcements on Justice in broadcast and global channels for people forming up for taking down the Seed of Hamidon.
Justice also runs at least two Hami Raids a week that I know of and I've seen several weeks since I22 launched with at least 3 Hami Raids scheduled. A few times there have been enough people locked out of The Hive that we've run back to back Hami Raids on either the Monday or Wednesday runs.
I've seen raids scheduled for 9 PM Eastern that have had a full Hive 15 minutes before the scheduled start times.
Maybe you just play on a server that isn't as active in Hami Raids or Seed Raids.
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Hami-O's with 50% enhancement values (preferably along with new "triple Hamis" with 33% boosts) would complicate, in fun and interesting ways, builds.
Frankenslotting with Hami-Os versus IO sets would shift toward "viable" for high-end play, making high-end builds choices between IO'd and Optimized. And choices between options of roughly-equal power are interesting.
(In my opinion. On my builds, at least.)
So, signed.
Another thing that should be done is that the Hero and Villain zones for the Hamidon should be merged.
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Really, so if they increased the percentage from what it was now to 50% it wouldn't be increased it would just be restored? Got it...|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
less an increase then a restoration to full strength
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Anyway, I actually think the attuned idea might be better. That way I can slot a hami on a new toon and keep it there until it reaches 50. With that being said if anything were to be done I would bet the increase to 50% would be the fastest easiest way to go and I'd be more than pleased with it.
The only wrong way to go would be putting a better version on the market. I would not pay real money for hamis.
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That could actually be an awesome idea. Not a surefire fix because some servers are hero heavy but that would certainly help.
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Originally Posted by Atilla_The_Pun
Another thing that should be done is that the Hero and Villain zones for the Hamidon should be merged.
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@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
so the jist of this thread is:
a) this was a bug
b) you knew it was a bug
c) you admit it was a bug
d) but it was a bug that helped you
e) helped you in a significant statistical fashion...ie, an exploit
f) and you expected it to be fixed
g) but you'd prefer it wasn't....
okay....done with this thread.
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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What if the jist is, "Since the fix, nobody does Hamidon trials anymore, here's a potentially-very-easy way to make the Hamidon trial tempting again..."?|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
so the jist of this thread is:
okay....done with this thread. |
Because that's the jist I got.
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So the jist of this post was:|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
so the jist of this thread is:
a) this was a bug b) you knew it was a bug c) you admit it was a bug d) but it was a bug that helped you e) helped you in a significant statistical fashion...ie, an exploit f) and you expected it to be fixed g) but you'd prefer it wasn't.... okay....done with this thread. |
a) you glanced over this thread for about 10 seconds
b) you jumped to a conclusion about what the thread was actually about without thinking
c) you looked like a fool because your response had nothing to do with what's being talked about here
okay....done with this post.
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Your jist of the entire thread is wrong and a valuable on your contribution on your part here is nonexistent. The op suggested a number of ways to reapproach HOs and in this post HO nerf, post ED, post different HO nerf coh world I'd say the OP is on to something. |
Originally Posted by Lycanus
so the jist of this thread is:
a) this was a bug b) you knew it was a bug c) you admit it was a bug d) but it was a bug that helped you e) helped you in a significant statistical fashion...ie, an exploit f) and you expected it to be fixed g) but you'd prefer it wasn't.... okay....done with this thread. |
I'm in favor of returning HOs to their original I1/I2 values where Schedule As got 50% boost and schedule Bs got 33% iirc. If last HO nerf gave rise to a return to original HO strength I would be strongly in favor of that trade.
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A-G) You didn't read and comprehend the thread and instead jumped to the wrong conclusion and then went off about the wrong conclusion.|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
so the jist of this thread is:
a) this was a bug b) you knew it was a bug c) you admit it was a bug d) but it was a bug that helped you e) helped you in a significant statistical fashion...ie, an exploit f) and you expected it to be fixed g) but you'd prefer it wasn't.... okay....done with this thread. |
Okies SOP around here these days.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Then strictly redside players would complain about the event being made co-op |
Originally Posted by Atilla_The_Pun
Another thing that should be done is that the Hero and Villain zones for the Hamidon should be merged.
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While I'm not sure a high end build would be made purely of HOs (Im 99% sure they wouldn't), I could see people going after IOs and using them, and more of them, with the return of their original enhancement values.
Often times I have powers that I use regularly that have 1-2 slots that no set bonus is worth putting into the build.
Sure, I may look for such a set bonus, but in the grand scheme of things, not detrimental to the build. But added enhancement values! YES!
I already use some multi-aspect IOs to fill in some enhancement short comings, rolling back the original change to HOs would make them worth going after and putting into quite a few of those 5th and/or 6th slots!
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Really? Nobody does Hamidon trials anymore? Perhaps you missed a previous post I made.|
Originally Posted by ThatGuyThere
What if the jist is, "Since the fix, nobody does Hamidon trials anymore, here's a potentially-very-easy way to make the Hamidon trial tempting again..."?
Because that's the jist I got. |
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
I've seen several announcements on Justice in broadcast and global channels for people forming up for taking down the Seed of Hamidon.
Justice also runs at least two Hami Raids a week that I know of and I've seen several weeks since I22 launched with at least 3 Hami Raids scheduled. A few times there have been enough people locked out of The Hive that we've run back to back Hami Raids on either the Monday or Wednesday runs. I've seen raids scheduled for 9 PM Eastern that have had a full Hive 15 minutes before the scheduled start times. Maybe you just play on a server that isn't as active in Hami Raids or Seed Raids. |
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There was a time when several servers were running -daily- Hami raids.|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
If nobody does Hami raids since the fix, why is Justice still running multiple Hami raids each week?
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That was mostly back during the early days before Hami-Os were nerfed down from their original 50% values.
The "math" of this seems pretty clear to me. *shrugs*
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Because Justice is a single server that in no way represents everybody. That said, perhaps a better phrasing would be "the majority of servers no longer run regular Hami raids".
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
If nobody does Hami raids since the fix, why is Justice still running multiple Hami raids each week?
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@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
They should definaly revamp the Hamidon Enchancements to give them Hamidon Enchancement set system like the Io sets but like very rare IO set
It's the classic K.I.S.S. principle - the easier the suggestion the more likely it is to happen.
;p