Give Scrappers a real inherent power

That's not really my point. Blasters need a buff more than Stalkers ever did. That's the central point. I can only assume that the Stalker AT received this enormous buff because they were less popular. If I'm wrong, so be it. I am not wrong that Blasters needed a buff before Stalker did.

No matter what, if they are more attractive to play, then people playing them more are not playing something else. I'm confident there is some aspect of "new shiny", but if the changes to Stalkers were successful, they cannot help but reduce the time people play other ATs by some degree. If it's true that some people have a preference for playing melee ATs, then it may be that a more attractive Stalker AT may "steal" players disproportionately from the other melee ATs, including Scrappers.

I know that the I22 changes are likely to defer my playing both a Scrapper and a Brute I have in the wings, as I have a non-50 /Regen Stalker I was probably not going to level because I did not like how Dull Pain worked on Stalkers after the base HP buff, and which I now want to level again due to the MaxHP change and an interest in experiencing new AS at lower levels. (My other Stalker was 50 before even the base HP change.)

In terms of how badly the AT needed a buff, I suspect you're correct. I suspect that the reason Stalkers got a buff first was some combination of (a) lower total overall creation, (b) higher rate of abandonment at early levels due to hide/AS playstyle [pure speculation on my part], (c) low-hanging fruit. Part (c) refers to how the devs found a way to radically alter the performance of the AT by changing one power that all Stalker primaries share. I would be shocked if what Blasters need could be achieved so narrowly and directly.

I admit, I'm speculating as well. I agree with your points, (a) and (b). I don't necessarily think (c) is true given the number of times they've buffed Stalkers and the mechanical nature of the recent buff.

I do recognize that folks aren't exactly in agreement about what's wrong with Blasters, although it seems to be a combination of damage and survivability.

That is one of the things that has been bothering me for a bit, and why I just took a MA/SR to 50 as an experiment. You no longer need to play a stalker with the hide and strike approach. It is an option, and a tool, but not required like it once was. Shoot I didn't ven take placate till lvl 49 on it.

I noted on the stalker boards that I think there will be a clash between the old way of playing stalkers, and the new way. Time will tell I guess.

For me which of the three I pick will end up boiling down to concept from this point forward. My Staff/EA toon is a priest, a Shepherd to Humanity. So stalker and AS, don't fit, and Furry doesn't quite fit (but I have an idea of how it may), so scrapper is the most likely.

I'm sorry. All I'm reading from this is... honestly rather childish.

"Stalkers are now, by various levels of margin but not by any significantly game-breaking amount, superior single target damage than Scrappers! As well, Brutes can tank marginally better and only have superior AoE when they are Super Strength or Titan Weapons/Fiery Aura!

I must boycott Scrappers and demand unreasonable buffs, even though I am swearing up and down I do not want Scrappers to get buffs, but something 'vaguely unique' that isn't a buff! But now I'm looking like a giant hypocrite because I won't play Scrappers until they are BUFFED. It's almost like I've wasted EVERYONE'S time in one elaborate April Fool's prank, a couple of weeks too early!

Wait. I'm not that clever."

Did that come off as rude? Sorry. I did stress 'I'll try', but your recent and new stance just honestly pisses me off.

You're acting like a certain Tanker activist now, for all the wrong reasons. Please, stop.

The prior buffs to Stalkers did help, but I would not describe them as "transformative" to the performance of the AT the way this latest one was. They can't be ignored, but they just weren't as big a deal as this one. I think that by any objective measure the latest change was transformative - it made good single-target Stalker sets exceptional and poor single-target sets pretty good. I don't see how the mechanical nature of the change makes my (c) untrue - it was a change to only one power.

Agreed, with a dose of that being in relation to what other ATs can do across multiple powersets.

Right an option different from the other apples. My point is they all have a different point of emphasis within the melee class and all play differently.

Yeah, they are pretty much all apples. I just had a guy on a trial tell me scrappers were just not good for min/max players. That was a first, and not true imo.

I have tried to be pretty clear that I think they are all even at this point, and that I just want something unique for scrappers.

No, I don't have end issues with any of my scrappers, but the end buff seemed like the lease breaking thing I could think of at the time. Really, I am not sure what could be given to scrappers that would not just be a buff. :/

I am not going to quit playing scrappers by any means, and I still wish they had their own unique mechanic.

First that trial guy sounds like an idiot and I am sure he will find that view more prevalent than people agreeing with that stupid ish.

Next, I am going to say this because I actually like you, get over it mate. I mean really the entire unique for scrappers campaign is beneath the kinds of posts you made prior to embarkation on this crusade.

More endurance is not needed and the entire just throw them "something" has no base/foundation/roots in the things usually needed to make those types of changes.

I don't want to rehash that unique deal I just had to address it since you just keep pounding away at nothing IMHO.

Not in my book. You see since an occasional death is essential for some to learn. As long as one man stands and clears the room, that is a win. It will teach the rest about the potential of builds in the game. If you only coddle the weak with perfect tanking, they will never learn to stand on thier own.

Ofcourse I could of stopped them falling, but that doesnt actually help them. Its the old give them a fish or teach them how scenerio. Everyone has to experiance that moment when they are 7 mortals among a gawd and have to learn to aspire to that potential. Failure is rarely even possible in this game. A rare team wipe is very educational, but the chance of getting 8 people on a team these day with less then 3 stand alone power houses is rare imo.

Funny, I was almost there last night. The post where I was accused of whining pulled me back in. For various reasons I am more emotional than usual and that post pushed all the wrong buttons.

I agree with you that any change to scrappers, other than power proliferation, is so low of a dev priority that it is not even on the totem pole. Shoot I would say it is low enough to feel the heat from the core of the earth.

Scrappers hit this near perfect spot of balance. They were that AT that was right out of the box, and still the first AT I suggest to new players. I do love them, they are no frills, and they do just what is advertised.

None of that changes that I would love for them to have something of their own, but it has become more and more clear that people just love the vanilla nature of the scrapper. Which is cool.

I do however think the next round of power proliferation is going to be very telling, and that may be the point where I begin to raise a stink again. Ice (melee and armor) are what I think we will see (and I will be happy with that), but they are swiftly running out of power sets to give Scrapers that don't cross into the realm of what they have claimed would be broken.

Meh, it is all just a big blur of frustration at this point any way. For most of this thread some very reasonable posters have been baiting each other into arguments we never would have had on any other given topic. Take a look a the lack of the usual suspects in this thread, and it is a bit shocking.

As I said before, time will tell. If the devs do see a mass abandonment of the scrapper AT, then they may (or may not) step in and do something.

Yes the not caring who takes Confront and not providing selflessness towards selfish builds is fine to me. There is an unwritten context, I care whether or not I take confront for one and can change my mind on anything the next day for another. Or should I? Actually "Let Idiots Die" is a good philosophy. I'll concentrate on those bringing survivability to the team rather than those who only have themselves in mind. That's fair.

I don't either. We are not using Confront as part of an attack chain. Ranged attacks can miss, and by missing not attract anything to turn around and hit you instead. In that moment someone else could be defeated. If their important to other peoples survival, then others can follow to give the domino effect. There is a time and a place for every power. It's knowing the time and place. Sure if we stayed on fighting +0s that do not tohit buff, that do not have higher defenses then we can almost guarantee a hit, but there is always a 5% chance to miss. You can't say there isn't. Edit: Just to add the first Scrapper I had confront on has Focus and Shockwave, being a SR has good run speed yet I still found value in Confront for the range on it beats those attacks as well as beating travel, as well as more chance to turn an enemy onto me. People insist they can just stab things and thats it but that just doesn't not happen. I have seen alot of this insistence wind up to be hot air. Scrappers with Auras may do better to keep mobs in the debuff auras and pull long ranged strays back to them too.

Again this is has a time and a place, usually its survivability you are offering at the start of a fight. It's very good but not good for a win versus other scenarios. There are different ATs and different Powersets within them that tackle different scenarios differently and better than eachother. There is no difference so there is no problem.


Whilst Tankers and Brutes do "hopefully" make better meatshields. They're not always available. I am not one hanging on in a TF till we get a "insert here". I am one for the first come, first served, you'll do, change to your badge toon even if people think its useless type person. We are not meant to have to rely on other ATs or any Powerset we are merely meant to be better off in terms of something or other so this. A competent team could be made up of all the fotm sets, a competent team could be made up with all the fotl sets. What's competent is subjective. There is generally no such thing as a glass half full with me. An incompetent bunch of players can be made competent and nothing has to be failed at all. Some people quit when there are still options available. They have all the so called great powersets but they just can't do whatever it is together. I don't do that. There are many alternatives and failure should never be one. Getting Incarnated and IO setted isn't a must neither for pre incarnate content.

Some people are going on about removing the power for something else. Which is yellow, it's like "I don't want to guarantee myself the AVs aggro". Or it's not tactically good like "I don't want to do anything which can raise the survivability or the DPS off of the team". I actually think that the game is not complicated and people continue to demand more and more in their favour just to get through it. It's a bit like Daddy's little Angel wanting a Rolls Royce just to go to the shops or a laptop just to open up a Facebook.

I do not see it necessary to turn a Stallion into a Unicorn. Lot's of people think Scrappers are fine as they are and find it laughable to need a buff.

Often these really tight builds are like Cars that needed to have Dice hanging from the mirrors. You can't fit it in but someone else will by removing the Dice. We all generally play different builds. I wouldn't want your builds and you wouldn't want mine. We have different intentions. Powersets, Power pools and so on allow us to define our characters by our own intentions. What we shouldn't be trying to do is define other peoples characters for them.

My Scrappers will quite happily do whatever a Tanker does basically. I play Tankers mainly, I have that mindset. Other people don't, by the sounds of things they may on a Scrapper have a Stalker mindset and wish to placate all aggro onto the rest of the team who are already in the red or something. Be that last Leg End standing that their n00b mates cheer on.

No a win is where everyone stays alive, you can guarantee much more efficiency that way. No one likes to level slowly. Debt used to do that. People would moan about it, then do something stupid and put it down to something that "happens" and not learn from it at all. A Firetank maybe oblivious to the constant deaths the Blaster in the team keeps having but the Blaster is still up his butt because that Firetank makes him great XP. I am sure there would of been a greater feeling of adrenalin if the Blaster just experienced some being in the red and kept on playing. One thing that stands out is people like to earn good XP they don't do that laying on the floor. Another thing that stands out is that people like to be in that Near Death Experience zone, wondering "How the hell did we survive that?" I have to let aggro astray as a Tanker just so their little healthbars move, they have to have their little on the side battles otherwise it isn't fun. Shooting fish in the barrel isn't fun. Laying on the floor isn't fun. It might be nice if I was lazy but no.

Don't put words into my mouth. I made a suggestion under the premise that I, and many other scrappers, have zero issues with taking aggro by just hitting things.

It has nothing to do with being "yellow", I'm not the one wanting an easy button to tank something. I ran on a GM hunt group a week ago where I was the tank, or at least I was once the other scrapper would pull aggro and die in two hits. I kept the aggro from everyone else besides that scrapper just by hitting stuff. That's what we do. I have run a good deal of TFs where I was tanking on my scrapper. I have tanked AVs with my scrapper when there was no tank. I have no problems with being attacked, so don't insult me.

I am fine with staying out of this discussion from here on out, but don't make things up about what I said and call me names. I don't like that.

Respectfully (not really), I'll post whatever I like.

This is the exact reasoning used by Stalkers to justify their buff. Exact. And my post was in direct response to someone stating that I should stop playing Scrappers. I was responding to another poster and you are taking my post out of context and paraphrasing it with BS I didn't say.

If you don't like what I'm writing you are perfectly welcome to...not like what I'm writing. However, you are not a mod, and you don't tell me what I can and cannot post. I thank you for the bump to my post.

Why?

See I can live and respect Siolfir's answer because it was honest. Why don't you think it should be proliferated? Honestly, SR with Rebirth is better at granting positional, Nin is cool because of its bag of tricks and the awesome poses that go with the animations.

Concept, and theme are what I like best about it.

I would love to hear and actual good reason why it should not be proliferated.

A good reason for, is that they are proliferating everything else, why not that? If brutes can get regen and WP, which turns them into the energizer bunny of melee, why not give scrappers nin? I mean really, a brute with regen only has to worry about running our of enemies, nothing much else.

I disagree with the low-hanging fruit theory, because the changes to Stalkers were transformative. Truly, this was not a 'small tweak' to paraphrase Statesman. This was an overhaul. The hit and run playstyle is now all but a memory. Stalkers are now single target specialists.

Which is great. I actually think the changes to Stalkers are excellent. I do worry that they have pushed Blasters even farther behind. I also worry that Scrappers are superfluous.

I get what everyone says about them still being good. I don't quarrel with that. But when I look at the AT as a whole, I can't find any advantage they offer outside of taking Shield. That powerset leverages their higher self-damage buffing in a way that properly pulls them ahead of Brutes and Stalkers. But Shield isn't an AT.

It's like another thread going on in this forum about */Mental and the things it's capable of with Drain Psyche. The outlier does not define the AT. In far too many combinations now, Scrapper don't offer any advantage over Stalkers or Brutes. Brutes leverage AoE better, and Stalkers leverage Single target better. No one here has quarreled with that idea. Most of the objections are platitudes about Scrappers being "awesome". Yes, they are awesome. But that's almost beside the point. What I am asking is what do Scrappers offer that Stalkers and Brutes don't?

Both Stalkers and Brutes can be played just as fire and forget as Scrappers. The changes to Fury makes it a lot less variable. It's just there now. Easy to build, and easy to maintain. Yes, you don't start as strong as Scrappers, but it takes mere seconds to get back. As for Stalkers, they're just Scrappers now, but they have all their other advantages besides. And with newer sets retaining the AoEs, the single target specialists doesn't necessarily lose much in AoE.

Did you and Leo_G start a club on "I do what I want while not quite breaking the rules but I am clearly skirting so close that a soft summer's breeze is a legitimate risk!"?

And no, I didn't take it out of context. Perhaps if you worded your post better and didn't sound like a child who is flailing their arms at not getting the best toys and all the other children being left out in the snow, maybe I wouldn't point you out for acting like a selfish brat. But since you do what you want, I suppose that was your intention.

And even if it wasn't, you still came off that way. My apologies for you.

Ultimately, you still lack one (more than) key point(s), which I shall give to you because you're already acting like a spoiled brat.

1) Blasters do need the buff more, but they had a niche no other AT can claim still; Superior AoE Burst, outside of Judgment Powers but everyone gets those and they're 2 minute cooldowns.

2) Stalkers had no unique niche. Single target melee burst was on a superior AT(s) for it; Banes and Widows. They had no niche besides lower than average single target damage, generally little to no AoE, and were very good at being terrible alternatives to Scrappers, Brutes, Banes, and Widows.

Or Meleenata, which are superior.

As long as Blasters had that niche, Stalkers were a bigger priority. With that priority out of the way, Blasters can now be examined with the knowledge of the recent Melee Power Creep, IE; Titan Weapons having radical AoE Burst, and other sets having Good Enough AoE Burst. Combined with Blaster ST damage also falling off due to the recent Melee Power Creep.

You have been provided the knowledge you need to know why your argument was flawed. You are welcome, and I can go back to being nice and rolling my eyes.