Honest Blaster Questions/Research


Another_Fan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Gerald View Post
"...all Elec is pretty dire these days. End drain is reasonably meaningless, both in PVP and PVE and the damage that electric puts out is feeble."

Hahahahaha, NO. You're definitely doing something, by which I mean several things, wrong. My first 50 was all elec and when he entered PI, he was AoEing groups of red mobs.

Congratulations. I'm sincerely happy for you.

I tend to agree with Fulmens response but my response is to stop playing blasters and play controllers. My trollers don't kill stuff that quick but they stay alive and do manage to see the fight through to the end and their survivability makes them a lot more fun.

I don't get too involved in in-depth analysis of the numbers, I leave that to those like Arcanaville who are far better qualified to do that on our behalf. However, my response is an emotional response and a simple one: If I don't enjoy playing something for any reason then it's time to stop playing it - and playing blasters is simply painful for me these days. I'm all for challenges, including doing silly stuff like soloing the ITF and small team TFs at +4x8 on a variety of ATs.

However blasters don't offer anything like the flexibility to do this and simply aren't fun to play. I play this game to have fun. Blasters aren't giving me that fun no more.

That's a personal feeling and I don't impute that to anyone else but it seems germaine to the general content of this thread.

I like what the OP is trying to achieve here but sadly I don't think I've got the stomach to try it.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent View Post
Other issues, like whether Voltaic Sentinel is a fair substitute for a "tier 3" style blast, are up for debate.
It isn't; it isn't.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laevateinn View Post
It isn't; it isn't.
That depends on which one. I would trade Power Burst for Voltaic Sentinel.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
That depends on which one. I would trade Power Burst for Voltaic Sentinel.
Agreed.

That makes me sad.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I would trade Power Burst for Voltaic Sentinel.
Why? I haven't analyzed the numbers on it, but on my main, I use it whenever it's up and there's something in range of it, which is fairly often with all the extra range that character has.

Having tried VS, it's a neat idea and all, but in practice I tend to find it not that useful to me. If I'm already in the fight, I'm busy draining mobs. If not, I can summon it, but it will take a while to catch up to me, and half the duration on it goes to waste. At least, that's how I remember it; I don't play the elec/elec very often.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgar View Post
Why? I haven't analyzed the numbers on it, but on my main, I use it whenever it's up and there's something in range of it, which is fairly often with all the extra range that character has.

Having tried VS, it's a neat idea and all, but in practice I tend to find it not that useful to me. If I'm already in the fight, I'm busy draining mobs. If not, I can summon it, but it will take a while to catch up to me, and half the duration on it goes to waste. At least, that's how I remember it; I don't play the elec/elec very often.
Some tier 3 powers trade high DPA for low range. Blaze, for example, has huge DPA even if you ignore the DoT: 2.12 scale damage with a cast time of 1.0. With Arcanatime factored in, that's a DPA of 1.78 DS/sec. Most Blaster tier 1 and tier 2 attacks have something closer to 0.9 DS/sec: a 1.0 scale damage attack with 1.0 cast time has an arcanatime-adjusted DPA of 0.84 DS/sec and a 1.64 damage 1.67s cast time attack has a similarly adjusted 0.89 DS/sec. Blaze has twice the DPA of the average blaster attack.

But Power Burst's cast time is 2.0 seconds. Its adjusted DPA is only 0.94 DS/sec, only marginally higher than normal tier 1/2 attacks. That very small increase in DPA is not a good trade for halving the range of the attack.

Energy Torrent's DPA is 0.73, and its a cone with the same range as Power Burst. It also has the same chance for knockback as burst does, per target. For Energy Torrent to do better than Power Burst requires ET hitting on average 1.3 targets or more, which is hard to avoid doing even on purpose for a solo player on x1 difficulty.

To beat Blaze even without Blaze's DoT, torrent would have to average hitting more than 2.4 targets per cast, which is at least something that can legitimately fail to happen in soloing circumstances.

I would take it if I had the free power choices and the slots to devote to it, but it was an easy power to ditch when making build choices. An energy-equivalent pet like the Voltaic Sentinel would be something I might think about more. Especially because in a high recharge build with a full attack chain anything the sentinel does is effectively free damage. Incorporating burst into an already full energy chain might add a few percent damage: I think the sentinel can beat a couple of percent.

If nothing else, it would add options for set mules.


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Posted

My usual statement is "Voltaic Sentinel does about as much damage as an Empathy Defender." It was handy for AV fights and situations where chain-aggro wasn't likely. (Also on a FF/Elec when the tanks were hanging back waiting for people to tell them how brave they were. VS + PFF = "Follow me.") Like most of the things in Elec Blast, it's not LIKE the other kids, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.


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Posted

I think they really need to give all the T3 single target damage powers blaze-like activation times. Or at least all the ones that don't also have a huge stun or something attached.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrycloth View Post
I think they really need to give all the T3 single target damage powers blaze-like activation times. Or at least all the ones that don't also have a huge stun or something attached.
All of the tier 3 blasts except Blaze and arguably Shout have something significant attached.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
And thank you for such a perfect example of "Everything is fine with Blasters if you have years of experience, build perfectly, play perfectly, and nothing goes wrong."

(see also, eight years of "Why do we even have Defenders/Tanks in this game?")

I would say that, yes, there are probably tips we can give Scarlet Shocker to make her elec/elec experience a better one. The point is not to yell UR DOIN IT WRONG. The point is that you have to be a damn good Blaster to do things that a mediocre Scrapper doesn't think twice about.
Okay, I don't know how you're interpreting "My first 50" with "years of experience," let alone, "years of experience, build perfectly, play perfectly, and nothing goes wrong," because that is decidedly NOT the experience I had leveling him, and I only learned how to use Mids shortly after making that post. I'm hardly a "numbers" guy myself, but the poster is making it sound like playing an elec/elec is a lot harder than it is. If one's idea of a good time is "don't ever faceplant while soloing, not even once," then that's just unreasonable. "Death" in this game is a trivial inconvenience anyway, so I have no problem running into melee range and immediately draining all the end out of everything in PBAoE range. Anything that survives a nuke is just food to nullify the crash (provided you have one small blue insp).

You have to have the mental flexibility to accept ATs and powersets as they are, with all their attendant limitations and weaknesses, and be able to switch between melee and ranged mindsets. If you can't do that, no amount of advice is going to be of use. Blasters will just suck for you.

Having said that, there's a guide to elec/elec blasters in the appropriate section of this very forum. Scarlet Shocker, have you taken a look at it?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Gerald View Post
You have to have the mental flexibility to accept ATs and powersets as they are, with all their attendant limitations and weaknesses, and be able to switch between melee and ranged mindsets. If you can't do that, no amount of advice is going to be of use. Blasters will just suck for you.
One might say that in order to participate in balance discussions, you have to have the mental flexibility to understand that your own personal experiences and abilities do not necessarily reflect how most other players function on an AT. You need the ability to step back and analyze its abilities and honestly compare them to other ATs at various levels of investment (DOs, SOs, IOs, Incarnate, but also the difference between those players who push through various limitations and weaknesses vs. those who just decide to play something that has different limitations and weaknesses).

So often the need for mental flexibility comes up with blasters; the need to work within the limits and weaknesses of the AT. That advice rarely is given for other ATs (but I have seen it for all ATs at one point or another, just most often for blasters).


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Posted

I see. You don't need to play perfectly, you need the ability to "shrug off defeat."

I don't hang out in the other AT forums much, but I don't ever remember seeing that specified for anyone else. Maybe Kin Defenders. I don't know.

I have the ability to "Shrug off defeat." I remember when the debt cap was twice what it is now, you got full debt indoors, and it took 10 hours to get a level, playing hard, in the 40's. If I remember correctly, after trying the Sewer Trial in 2005 or 6, it took five hours to burn off the debt.

What I don't have is the opinion that the "limitations and weaknesses" of a Blaster are just something to accept, given that they are so much greater than the limitations and weaknesses of EVERY OTHER ARCHETYPE IN THE GAME and there's very little benefit to counterbalance them.

30% more damage than a scrapper on a good day. 500% more vulnerability on a typical day.

I play Blasters- I've lost count, somewhere around eight at or near 50, a couple up-and-comers. I think I'm pretty good at Blasters. I don't believe Blasters are balanced. I have levelled up tanks, scrappers, defenders, corruptors, brutes. I may sometimes come to the wrong conclusion, but it's not from lack of research.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
I see. You don't need to play perfectly, you need the ability to "shrug off defeat."

I don't hang out in the other AT forums much, but I don't ever remember seeing that specified for anyone else. Maybe Kin Defenders. I don't know.

I have the ability to "Shrug off defeat." I remember when the debt cap was twice what it is now, you got full debt indoors, and it took 10 hours to get a level, playing hard, in the 40's. If I remember correctly, after trying the Sewer Trial in 2005 or 6, it took five hours to burn off the debt.

What I don't have is the opinion that the "limitations and weaknesses" of a Blaster are just something to accept, given that they are so much greater than the limitations and weaknesses of EVERY OTHER ARCHETYPE IN THE GAME and there's very little benefit to counterbalance them.

30% more damage than a scrapper on a good day. 500% more vulnerability on a typical day.

I play Blasters- I've lost count, somewhere around eight at or near 50, a couple up-and-comers. I think I'm pretty good at Blasters. I don't believe Blasters are balanced. I have levelled up tanks, scrappers, defenders, corruptors, brutes. I may sometimes come to the wrong conclusion, but it's not from lack of research.
Agreed & agreed. I also remember the days of enormous debt from the days of 2005+. It was a long hard road. Back then I initially played only tankers. Later I decided to try the complete opposite end of the spectrum to which i viewed to be the "Blaster." I immediately loved the concept. Riding on the edge of death as my damage output became greater & greater. A tip to the hat to Arcanaville, in that he/she helped me flesh out my first Energy/Energy character concept way back then, i.e Dr. Fear. COH in a nut shell has taken many changes since then, but i feel the Blaster out of all the other archetypes somehow fell behind. A facelift is definitely called for. Increased survivability I feel needs to be increased, at least to the point of Ice's secondary in my opinion. Why cant any of the other secondaries offer some means of soft control? Not so much to step on the toes of controllers, yet something similar Ice? I love my Blasters, but every time i'm playing mine, I feel like Kurt Russell in the Movie Soldier. An old model in a new environment.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
All of the tier 3 blasts except Blaze and arguably Shout have something significant attached.
For varying levels of significant... again, Power Burst need not apply. By that I mean it has a 60% chance of mag 3.3 KB, which is a bit better than Power Blast's 30% chance of mag 1.6 KB, but isn't exactly a significant increase. Blazing Arrow is in the same category as Blaze as just having extra damage.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diellan_ View Post
For varying levels of significant... again, Power Burst need not apply. By that I mean it has a 60% chance of mag 3.3 KB, which is a bit better than Power Blast's 30% chance of mag 1.6 KB, but isn't exactly a significant increase.
I disagree. While I could argue that it deserves more KB, I find its KB to be very significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diellan_ View Post
Blazing Arrow is in the same category as Blaze as just having extra damage.
BA has 80 foot range, which I also find significant. Our opinions differ here and I am pretty sure neither of us will convince the other.


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What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
I disagree. While I could argue that it deserves more KB, I find its KB to be very significant.


BA has 80 foot range, which I also find significant. Our opinions differ here and I am pretty sure neither of us will convince the other.
But neither of those are nearly as significant as the guaranteed stun that Rad provides, which was all that I meant. As ArcanaVille pointed out, Power Burst is a very minor power increase over Power Bolt and Power Blast, and those powers can be used while mezzed.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diellan_ View Post
But neither of those are nearly as significant as the guaranteed stun that Rad provides, which was all that I meant. As ArcanaVille pointed out, Power Burst is a very minor power increase over Power Bolt and Power Blast, and those powers can be used while mezzed.
Hmmm. I am not sure I agree. I love Cosmic Burst, but Blazing Arrow's 80 foot range actually comes in handy in many situations and I would say I find it to be at least equal in benefit to the stun. I'll give you Power Burst. The chance for KB is not as useful as the stun. However, it is still very useful.

Blaze... hmmm. I have always said Blaze is like a mez in that, used right, it kills fast enough to eliminate a target just like a mez would. There are times however that the mez would be nicer than just the damage, but the long cast time of PB combined with the fact that it is not guaranteed KB, does make it less awesome (though it does have that great woo woo woosh-bam).


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So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Hmmm. I am not sure I agree. I love Cosmic Burst, but Blazing Arrow's 80 foot range actually comes in handy in many situations and I would say I find it to be at least equal in benefit to the stun. I'll give you Power Burst. The chance for KB is not as useful as the stun. However, it is still very useful.
The other problem that Power Burst has is that kb isn't something that can be done indefinitely without good timing due to the ragdoll suppression on KB, and it being a chance for KB means you can't really do that. Power Burst is basically a poster child for bad tier 3 blasts, and I doubt ArcanaVille and I are the only Energy Blasters to skip it in favor of the just taking the tier 1 and tier 2.

*looks at the list*

Oh, right, Telekinetic Blast. *sighs* Telekinetic Blast is Power Burst that operates at 80' and animates in half the time... and has a stronger KB mag (same chance).

The woes of being an Energy Blaster.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diellan_ View Post
The woes of being an Energy Blaster.
Well, I am a Power Push fan, so when I need guaranteed KB, I'll lower my damage output and use that, which is obviously something Rad/ doesn't have to do since it can get the stun out of CB. However, usually KB works on bosses better than that stun. OTOH, I have chosen to use PB when I, in hindsight, should have used PP and gotten killed for my hubris.

I am still not sure where I fall on PBs ranking amongst the tier 3s. I usually think of them as pretty equal, with the exception of Shout, and Sonic has a lot of other things going for it. Again, I wouldn't argue against increasing the KB and/or KB chance in PB, I just do not find it lacking.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Well, I am a Power Push fan, so when I need guaranteed KB, I'll lower my damage output and use that, which is obviously something Rad/ doesn't have to do since it can get the stun out of CB. However, usually KB works on bosses better than that stun. OTOH, I have chosen to use PB when I, in hindsight, should have used PP and gotten killed for my hubris.
I simply didn't take either Power Burst or Power Push (the only powers I skipped from my primary).

Quote:
I am still not sure where I fall on PBs ranking amongst the tier 3s. I usually think of them as pretty equal, with the exception of Shout, and Sonic has a lot of other things going for it. Again, I wouldn't argue against increasing the KB and/or KB chance in PB, I just do not find it lacking.
Shout at least stacks nicely with the other powers... it's still pretty bad, though.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diellan_ View Post
Power Burst is basically a poster child for bad tier 3 blasts, and I doubt ArcanaVille and I are the only Energy Blasters to skip it in favor of the just taking the tier 1 and tier 2.
What's sad is that I used to take it, because at one time Power Bolt was even worse: it was the worst blast this side of Flares.


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Posted

I'm late to the thread (frankly surprised at myself for not joining sooner), but wanted to add my 2 bits.

First, some personal notes (skip if you wish):
I love my Energy Blaster, but stopped playing him for the most part due to seeing him outstripped in effectiveness by others ATs. As much as I laugh when my WM/Inv Brute wades into a dozen mobs without thought and wipes them in secs while taking negligible damage, I weep for my blaster at not being close to doing the same. And then there's the perma-rage SS/Inv tanker in my blaster's SG who can walk into a huge group and practically one-shot the lot of them. I'm terrible at crunching numbers, but from my own experience, the anecdotal evidence is overhwleming. Again, just my own personal experiences. I've played a few Blasters over the years, and I like to think that I'm as tactical and effective with what I'm given as anyone else, but the tactics are a chore, not a challenge. Tactics with my Ice Dom is a challenge and enjoyable for me, but I'm doing it to be more effective and efficient, not just to survive.
Anyway... personal rant over.


This is an extreme suggestion, but just to take things in a different direction, what if, instead of increasing damage, Blaster damage was made unresistable, or at least partially so? This would effectively increase damage without raising caps. If you wanted to add a team benefit, then have the -res be partially effective for the rest of the team. A top-level Incarnate, IO'd, etc team wouldn't really need it, but in the mid to later levels, it would be quite a boon to most teams.

Granted, this would reduce the novelty and usefulness of different damage types among the sets, since not all mobs have the same resists vs all damage, but there are still many variations in power types (AOE, Drains, Holds) and secondary effects to keep them separate and different from one another.

This is just a thought and I'm sure that there are a number of things that I haven't considered, but I wanted to toss something new out there that I haven't seen so far.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordDynamo_NA View Post
This is an extreme suggestion, but just to take things in a different direction, what if, instead of increasing damage, Blaster damage was made unresistable, or at least partially so? This would effectively increase damage without raising caps. If you wanted to add a team benefit, then have the -res be partially effective for the rest of the team. A top-level Incarnate, IO'd, etc team wouldn't really need it, but in the mid to later levels, it would be quite a boon to most teams.

Granted, this would reduce the novelty and usefulness of different damage types among the sets, since not all mobs have the same resists vs all damage, but there are still many variations in power types (AOE, Drains, Holds) and secondary effects to keep them separate and different from one another.

This is just a thought and I'm sure that there are a number of things that I haven't considered, but I wanted to toss something new out there that I haven't seen so far.
The devs have said in the past that unresistable damage in PvE is not really on the table because it breaks a lot of things. The problem is that it has a small benefit against normal critters, but against critters specifically designed to be very highly resistant the benefit increases dramatically. There are special ways around that, but they themselves have complications.

To give you a hint of the problem, suppose you made 10% of blaster damage unresistable. Against a critter with no resistances that would do nothing. Against a critter with 20% resistances you'd do more damage: 90% of your damage would be resisted by 20%, and you'd end up doing 72% of your damage, and then on top of that 10% would be unresisted, giving you a total of 82% damage vs 80% if your damage was all resistable. A tiny increase.

But against a critter with 90% resistances, you'd now be dealing 90% of your damage against that resistance, dealing a total of 9% damage, and another 10% unresisted for a total of 19% of your original damage. You'd now be doing more than twice the damage you would have been doing if all your damage was resistable. That's a huge buff against a target that was *intended* to be hard to bring down. And when you start getting to things like Marauder in the Lambda itrial, things get even messier.

Another quirk to unresistable damage: if your damage ignores resistances, that also means that part of your damage will not *benefit* from resistance debuffs either. There's no real way to make damage unresistable, and yet also benefit from resistance debuffs. So in some situations, unresistable damage can actually sometimes be a penalty on blaster damage. Sonic blasters would be particularly problematic.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
The devs have said in the past that unresistable damage in PvE is not really on the table because it breaks a lot of things. The problem is that it has a small benefit against normal critters, but against critters specifically designed to be very highly resistant the benefit increases dramatically. There are special ways around that, but they themselves have complications.

To give you a hint of the problem, suppose you made 10% of blaster damage unresistable. Against a critter with no resistances that would do nothing. Against a critter with 20% resistances you'd do more damage: 90% of your damage would be resisted by 20%, and you'd end up doing 72% of your damage, and then on top of that 10% would be unresisted, giving you a total of 82% damage vs 80% if your damage was all resistable. A tiny increase.

But against a critter with 90% resistances, you'd now be dealing 90% of your damage against that resistance, dealing a total of 9% damage, and another 10% unresisted for a total of 19% of your original damage. You'd now be doing more than twice the damage you would have been doing if all your damage was resistable. That's a huge buff against a target that was *intended* to be hard to bring down. And when you start getting to things like Marauder in the Lambda itrial, things get even messier.

Another quirk to unresistable damage: if your damage ignores resistances, that also means that part of your damage will not *benefit* from resistance debuffs either. There's no real way to make damage unresistable, and yet also benefit from resistance debuffs. So in some situations, unresistable damage can actually sometimes be a penalty on blaster damage. Sonic blasters would be particularly problematic.
Ok, I can see what you're talking about. As I said, I knew there'd probably be issues, but I'm not much of a cruncher, so I thought I'd at least put it out there and see what the more mathematically-skilled made of it. I forgot about Sonic, as well, until after I posted. I was just trying to think of a way to boost the effectiveness of Blaster damage without necessarily just increasing it. Not that I'm against MOAR damage, either.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha View Post
Is there anyone here that:

a. Thinks blasters are not broken
b. Does not fix the gaping holes in blaster functionality with IOs

and meets both conditions at the same time? I haven't read all of the threads about blasters sucking, just curious. In my experience a scrapper with no IOs at all has comparable performance to a blaster filled with (non-purple/pvp) IOs. I guess I could be a "12 year old" idiot noob, or maybe my blasters were manufactured in Suck Town and I didnt have 20 billion influence to fix them.
That would be me...while my Dark/EM is IOd to the gills for pvp (47 KB protect, capped HP, lost of +damage and +range) it just isn't needed in PvE with how stupid most mobs are. Blasters get held? Carry a few Break Free. Not enough damage going through? A few reds or procs.

You don't need 20 billion to fix Blasters, all you need is a little more situational awareness and a little more buff bar management as well. I'm not entirely certain of the Dev's intent with Blasters, but it seems their massive damage tilt eschews longer fights where you might need defense. Maybe add some tiny status protection when under Defiance, but careful there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight View Post
If you don't mind the horrendously slow pace and leveling speed you can make a very survivable Arch/Dev blaster with SOs only. Problem is that it will be slower by about a factor of 4 than any other non-/dev power set combination (even elec/ and psi/)
Seeing how I levelled a grav/TA Controller and an Ice/Time Controller, Blasters seem like Porsche 911s. Also, as much I love to PL to 50 and so on, I'm not sure everyone is in a rush to do so. If Blasters are lagging that much in solo and team play...and I've seen a fair bit at all levels, so anecdotally it seems fine, then the Devs might need to dip into Kheldians' wells and see if they can get some form of team buff. We'll see though.


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