Quote:
My first thought on this was some sort of buff like defenders' vigilance that tapers off as you add more people to the team. This probably doesn't meet your criteria of 'active and behaving the same way both solo and teamed'. And I think it's unlikely that the devs would buff blasters in this way, but there are several people arguing that any buffs should be developed with the sole goal of improving soloing, assuming that any improvement will help teams as much as it will help soloers. I'm simply trying to point out that that is a flawed assumption.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Can you construct a performance improvement that helps soloing, doesn't help teaming and is actually active and behaving the same way both solo and teamed ?
I can't think how anyone would manage it. |
The second thing I thought of is much simpler, and should meet all the criteria you mentioned.
Give blasters a small amount of mez protection. While it will help out blasters on teams, it will not be as helpful to them as it will be to solo blasters. Let's say blasters are given mag 3 protection to all types of mez. For a blaster soloing, this is a major improvement. A blaster on a large team is likely to be facing far more enemies in each group than a solo blaster, meaning there will likely be a lot more mez using enemies as well. And though the blaster on the team will have teammates to take some of the aggro, there are a lot of enemies that have AoE mezzes. So while the mag 3 mez protection will certainly be beneficial to the blaster on the team, it won't be as beneficial as it would be to the soloing blaster.
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Originally Posted by firespray
My first thought on this was some sort of buff like defenders' vigilance that tapers off as you add more people to the team. This probably doesn't meet your criteria of 'active and behaving the same way both solo and teamed'. And I think it's unlikely that the devs would buff blasters in this way, but there are several people arguing that any buffs should be developed with the sole goal of improving soloing, assuming that any improvement will help teams as much as it will help soloers. I'm simply trying to point out that that is a flawed assumption.
The second thing I thought of is much simpler, and should meet all the criteria you mentioned. Give blasters a small amount of mez protection. While it will help out blasters on teams, it will not be as helpful to them as it will be to solo blasters. Let's say blasters are given mag 3 protection to all types of mez. For a blaster soloing, this is a major improvement. A blaster on a large team is likely to be facing far more enemies in each group than a solo blaster, meaning there will likely be a lot more mez using enemies as well. And though the blaster on the team will have teammates to take some of the aggro, there are a lot of enemies that have AoE mezzes. So while the mag 3 mez protection will certainly be beneficial to the blaster on the team, it won't be as beneficial as it would be to the soloing blaster. |
I wish we could run simulations with the code. As a researcher I would be all over this project. Have the Devs code up Mag 3 Mez protection of some kind for Blasters, put it on a special test server and run it with 1000 beta testers for a month. Log the results. Then remove the Mez protection and try more damage. Test again.
Personally I don't think that Mez protection is enough but it would be a good start.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
This isn't practical for hours of play, but don't they still sell the non-BreakFree mez protections in one of the PVP zones?
*checks Paragonwiki*
Strength of Will . Three minutes of moderate mez protection- I don't know what "moderate" means but I vaguely remember from 2004 it would be like mag 2 or 3.
The traditional problem is "if everyone has mez protection, why put mez in the game?" And the traditional answer is "Well, they went WAY FREAKING OVERBOARD ON MEZ in an attempt to stun melee types back when they first added level 40-50 content."
Personally, I was amazed they didn't dial back mez protection when they dialed back the rest of the protection sets in I5-6, but that boat sailed a long long time ago.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
I agree with you. Mez is one of blasters' major problems. I really have my doubts that they're going to give blasters mez protection though. Maybe instead they could expand the powers that vigilance allows you to use while mezzed. So at level 1 it would let you do what you can now, but maybe by level 50 you could use up to T4 or T5 powers from your primary and T2 or T3 from your secondary.
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Originally Posted by Comicsluvr
Personally I don't think that Mez protection is enough but it would be a good start.
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Quote:
I recall they did. If I remember correctly scrappers had about mag 30 and tankers about mag 45 protection at level 50 at one point. Did that not get reduced at the same time as teh GDN?
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Personally, I was amazed they didn't dial back mez protection when they dialed back the rest of the protection sets in I5-6, but that boat sailed a long long time ago.
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It is interesting that in incarnate trials at least, my characters with mez protection get mezzed MORE than those without it.
Take a BAF as an example... A ranged blaster-type build will basically never get mezzed but a melee type will get zapped by someone near them who was over-ringed aggro-wise.
In a Keyes everyone gets mezzede with regularity but again the melees are more susceptible to getting disintegrated (even though it doesn't happen often.)
This does not hold for "regular" lvl 50 content though.
As far as the OP's question goes, I actually did something very similar to this by recently levelling a beam/nrg and a DP/dark. The beam/nrg fared much better in "normal" content because it was a standard ranged hoverblaster build. The DP/dark will definitely eventually be much more overpowered with IOs (to shore up def and to get recharge high enough that HoB is up all of the time) but fares much worse in normal content.
Ranged hoverblasters are pretty direct and easy either solo or teamed and don't really have much difficulty as far as I can tell.
Note: I think blasters need a buff. Just making sure that you are not misunderstanding me.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
"Blaster heroes must be on their guard before combat; while their immense power can overcome most foes, alone they are quite vulnerable. The Blaster can turn the tide of a conflict, but they need their friends to help them succeed."
I got rid of the words getting into cos it had a link but this is the jist of the description when it comes to Blasters. So my expectations of any test would pretty much fit the description.
On guard would be, know where enemies are, know what they can do, know what they will most likely do and limit what they can do as a result.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
"Blaster heroes must be on their guard before combat; while their immense power can overcome most foes, alone they are quite vulnerable. The Blaster can turn the tide of a conflict, but they need their friends to help them succeed."
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I have always found blasters have the absolute least ability to turn the tide of any combat in the game. (Well neglecting vengeance. Dead Blaster = Vengeance + Fallout + Rise of the Phoenix = Dead Blasters FTW)
There also aren't many situations where other ATs can't overcome the same foes as fast or faster than the blaster, with greater reliability.
Quote:
Which archetypes lack the "immense power" to overcome most foes? Its great that Blasters can fit that element of their description, but also endemic of their problems that so can everyone else.
|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
"Blaster heroes must be on their guard before combat; while their immense power can overcome most foes, alone they are quite vulnerable. The Blaster can turn the tide of a conflict, but they need their friends to help them succeed."
I got rid of the words getting into cos it had a link but this is the jist of the description when it comes to Blasters. So my expectations of any test would pretty much fit the description. On guard would be, know where enemies are, know what they can do, know what they will most likely do and limit what they can do as a result. |
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I would agree. In fact, that description probably applies even better to controllers, from the on-guard before combat part to the immense power to overcome any foe, to the ability to turn the tide of any fight.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I have always found blasters have the absolute least ability to turn the tide of any combat in the game.
|
And they do tend to need their friends, although fortunately for them they can summon those.
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I too am following this thread with interest (as I play both AT's fairly frequently).
I'm especially enjoying the supplemental analysis being done on the raw mission
data.
I think Common IO's are perfectly acceptable on both toons, and the performance is
predictably similar between them and DO/SO's. Also SO's aren't out-performed
by Commons until L40, in anything other than simple convenience, so I'd expect
little or no skew effect between SO's and Commons.
One other element that may be a (probably small) "hidden factor" is that most of
us play some AT's better than other ATs (for instance, I myself play Blasters
much better than I play Controllers imo).
Blasters and Stalkers can be run using very similar tactics and playstyles, and I
know that THB is trying to keep things as consistent as possible between them, but
that's not necessarily a trivial thing to achieve in all circumstances.
Perhaps THB can comment on that and whether he feels any noticeable AT bias,
in terms of playstyle, as they run their missions.
In any case, interesting stuff.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
Hmmm... I'll take the contrary side, but qualified with "Good Blasters" can turn
Quote:
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the tide - based anecdotally on my own experience.
How?
* Prioritization/Elimination of key targets quickly
* Timely use of blapping/holds/drains and other secondary effects & buffs
* Additional DPS.
* Aggro Management.
Good Blasters are good at ALL of those things. Of course, timing is everything,
which is why "Good" is a qualifier, and I certainly don't disagree that other ATs
can also turn the tide of a battle.
How you'd quantifiably measure who's *best* at it is a question I'd be curious
to hear the answer for.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
Quantifying that might be tricky, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that Blasters have the best tools for aggro management or controls and secondary effects, and prioritization of targets is a player skill and not an archetype tool. DPS and ability to kill things quickly is something theoretically Blasters can do, but in terms of turning the tide of a fight going badly its very difficult to make the case that blasters have such overwhelmingly higher damage that they can do that fast enough to make a bigger difference than any other damage dealer could. In particular, Scrappers, Brutes, Stalkers, and Dominators all have the damage dealer moniker, and all have ways of both dealing high damage to a troublesome target or otherwise nullifying it.|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Hmmm... I'll take the contrary side, but qualified with "Good Blasters" can turn
the tide - based anecdotally on my own experience. How? * Prioritization/Elimination of key targets quickly * Timely use of blapping/holds/drains and other secondary effects & buffs * Additional DPS. * Aggro Management. Good Blasters are good at ALL of those things. Of course, timing is everything, which is why "Good" is a qualifier, and I certainly don't disagree that other ATs can also turn the tide of a battle. How you'd quantifiably measure who's *best* at it is a question I'd be curious to hear the answer for. |
When other archetypes have undeniably better tools to do half the things on that list, and other archetypes have very credibly at least equal tools to do the other half of the list, while I can't say I can say in what place Blasters are, I can say with certainty they aren't in the top half.
But this is more critical to the "turn the tide" issue. When I'm playing my blasters, there's basically only two modes I'm playing them in: casually and focused. My tactical options are usually limited to shoot fast, shoot faster, shoot really really fast. I can decide what to shoot at, but not so much what I shoot with, because I'm usually cycling my arsenal pretty fast either way. I have some choices, but not many. I have far more choices when playing a controller. I have controlling attacks, I have buffs and debuffs, I have heals. I can't use them all simultaneously, so I'm focused on particular things at particular times. I can change that focus. I can switch to more healing if that's required: I can switch to more debuffing if control is less necessary. If things are really hitting the fan I can EMP everything in sight, which pushes a pause button on nearly the entire fight. I can turn the tide of a fight because if the fight is not going the way I want it to I can change what I'm doing. On a Blaster, my damage might be making a difference, but it can't switch to better damage if I need to: what I have is all I have. The way I turn the tide of a fight on a blaster is I stop goofing off and unload my insp tray and then apply my offense in the most optimal way to alter the course of the fight. But that's entire happening in my head, my blaster isn't giving me a whole lot of alternate tools to work with.
If my team mates are about to die I can't save them. I can keep up the fight and hope they can rez back into it. If we aren't doing enough damage to a hard target I can't switch from doing more damage to amplifying my team mate's damage. All I can do is decide to kill this guy or decide to kill that guy or shoot in all directions, which is something pretty much anything can do to some degree.
Quantifying "best" may be tricky, but qualifying who has the best tools is not: whoever has the most diverse set of tools that are strong enough to be meaningful usually wins this one. And controllers are among the strongest of the diverse toolsets: they tend to have most or all of control, buff, debuff, heal, damage, pets. And the ones that are missing any one of these tend to be really strong in other areas (mind control loses pets, gains massive confuse ability).
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I know that this is subjective and not representative of *all* Blasters, but I am working on a high end Archery/Mental guide at the moment, and one of the key principles included is sort of an example of what you're talking about, specifically that if you can survive the cast time of Rain of Arrows, you can survive anything.
| lasters can do, but in terms of turning the tide of a fight going badly its very difficult to make the case that blasters have such overwhelmingly higher damage that they can do that fast enough to make a bigger difference than any other damage dealer could. In particular, Scrappers, Brutes, Stalkers, and Dominators all have the damage dealer moniker, and all have ways of both dealing high damage to a troublesome target or otherwise nullifying it. |
Quote:
The major issue is that there's SO much wiggle room here, you can't pin anything |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Quantifying that might be tricky, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that Blasters have the best tools for aggro management or controls and secondary effects, and prioritization of targets is a player skill and not an archetype tool.
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down really.
The first obvious issue to me is negating player skill - of course it's not an AT
quality. However, an unskilled player, on *any* AT, is arguably not "turning the
tide" of *any* battle. Simply put, not only does player skill matter when things
go south, but it's integral to the very concept of "turning the tide".
That is *exactly* why I quantify it with "Good" Blaster - skill matters.
Secondly, I'll approach your "best tools" comment from the perspective of my E3
blaster who can: hold a boss indefinitely, mitigate an entire spawn through
End Drain, again, indefinitely, can often kill (or counteract) a key target (like a
sapper, void, etc) before they even engage, and can stealth most maps with
complete impunity.
That's a pretty nice collection of attributes, not even counting DPS, temp powers/pets,
or iStuff (all of which he *also* employs) and given skilled and timely application
of those, can and ideed often has, turned the tide of numerous battles.
Quote:
| DPS and ability to kill things quickly is something theoretically Blasters can do, but in terms of turning the tide of a fight going badly its very difficult to make the case that blasters have such overwhelmingly higher damage that they can do that fast enough to make a bigger difference than any other damage dealer could. In particular, Scrappers, Brutes, Stalkers, and Dominators all have the damage dealer moniker, and all have ways of both dealing high damage to a troublesome target or otherwise nullifying it. |
the problem (which is why I placed it lower in my list).
Quote:
| When other archetypes have undeniably better tools to do half the things on that list, and other archetypes have very credibly at least equal tools to do the other half of the list, while I can't say I can say in what place Blasters are, I can say with certainty they aren't in the top half. |
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| But this is more critical to the "turn the tide" issue. When I'm playing my blasters, there's basically only two modes I'm playing them in: casually and focused. My tactical options are usually limited to shoot fast, shoot faster, shoot really really fast. I can decide what to shoot at, but not so much what I shoot with, because I'm usually cycling my arsenal pretty fast either way. I have some choices, but not many. I have far more choices when playing a controller. I have controlling attacks, I have buffs and debuffs, I have heals. I can't use them all simultaneously, so I'm focused on particular things at particular times. |
total of your options is to "shoot fast, faster, shoot really fast", then to quote
MythBusters, "There's your problem right there".
ALL of *my* blasters have at least one hold, (the E3 has 3), a heal, significant range
(and therefore time to assess/react), at least one pet after L15, and plenty of
other choices for dealing with the unforseen.
In the E3's case, I can make a pretty clear argument that his End Drain is comparable
to EMP - and I use it and prove it regularly.
Quote:
| If my team mates are about to die I can't save them. I can keep up the fight and hope they can rez back into it. If we aren't doing enough damage to a hard target I can't switch from doing more damage to amplifying my team mate's damage. All I can do is decide to kill this guy or decide to kill that guy or shoot in all directions, which is something pretty much anything can do to some degree. |
you've got an issue. I have never felt that way, and my blasters don't play
that way. Of course, I also play PB's a lot, and if anything, they are the exact
embodiment of the point I'm trying to make here.
I DO feel like I can keep teammates from dying - by killing the ambusher, by
locking down the boss, draining the bad guys to sharply reduce their DPS, by
changing aggro by dropping a Shivan in the mix, and sometimes, even with a *timely*
application of a Heal Other.
I *have* options, and smart application of those options often prevents the
situation from going south in the first place, or saving the day after it has.
Quote:
| Quantifying "best" may be tricky, but qualifying who has the best tools is not: whoever has the most diverse set of tools that are strong enough to be meaningful usually wins this one. And controllers are among the strongest of the diverse toolsets: they tend to have most or all of control, buff, debuff, heal, damage, pets. And the ones that are missing any one of these tend to be really strong in other areas (mind control loses pets, gains massive confuse ability). |
that Blasters can't/don't qualify. Do I have the BEST controls, pets, whatever?
Perhaps not. But I DO have ALL of those types of tools in my Blaster toolkit,
and so does EVERY other blaster, should they bother to think and build that way.
In the end, it is the mind of the player that changes whether we're dealing with a
"Good" Blaster, or a toon with a colorful pop-gun, and it is the Player, far more than
the AT that turns the tide of a battle. YMMV.
That's where I'll leave it at - we can agree to disagree after that point.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
The thing is that the Blaster is performing at its best when it is fulfilling its primary role of damage dealer, which leads us to...|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
This is where we radically differ in opinion. If as a Blaster, you believe the sum
total of your options is to "shoot fast, faster, shoot really fast", then to quote MythBusters, "There's your problem right there". |
Quote:
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ALL of *my* blasters have at least one hold, (the E3 has 3), a heal, significant range (and therefore time to assess/react), at least one pet after L15, and plenty of other choices for dealing with the unforseen. In the E3's case, I can make a pretty clear argument that his End Drain is comparable to EMP - and I use it and prove it regularly. |
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Again, if you think the *only* purpose of a Blaster is to bring damage - then yeah, you've got an issue. I have never felt that way, and my blasters don't play that way. Of course, I also play PB's a lot, and if anything, they are the exact embodiment of the point I'm trying to make here. |
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There's no tide turning possible in battles where everything dies in a couple seconds.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I know that this is subjective and not representative of *all* Blasters, but I am working on a high end Archery/Mental guide at the moment, and one of the key principles included is sort of an example of what you're talking about, specifically that if you can survive the cast time of Rain of Arrows, you can survive anything.
|
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It is a nice collection of attributes, but its unclear how they turn the tide of a fight. That expression refers to a fight that starts, then goes bad, and then someone does something special that changes the fight to bring it back to a good result.|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Secondly, I'll approach your "best tools" comment from the perspective of my E3
blaster who can: hold a boss indefinitely, mitigate an entire spawn through End Drain, again, indefinitely, can often kill (or counteract) a key target (like a sapper, void, etc) before they even engage, and can stealth most maps with complete impunity. That's a pretty nice collection of attributes, not even counting DPS, temp powers/pets, or iStuff (all of which he *also* employs) and given skilled and timely application of those, can and ideed often has, turned the tide of numerous battles. |
And the level of control you mention is something the average random controller has. Its great for a blaster, but that wouldn't even be worth mentioning on a controller. If I said "hi, I have a controller, and he can hold a boss indefinitely and mez an entire spawn" people would think I was on drugs. That's the minimum that all high level controllers should be able to do. A halfway decent one should be able to do far more, because they specialize in control. Any controller that can't outcontrol an electric blaster is actually demonstrably broken.
And nothing everyone has, like temp powers or incarnate powers, can be noteworthy in terms of which archetypes are particularly good at turning the tide of a fight. A level 50 with no primary or secondary but with temp powers and incarnate powers can do that, so to be noteworthy you have to exceed that ability.
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There's also no tide turning necessary in the first place when everything dies in a couple seconds every 20 seconds or less. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There's no tide turning possible in battles where everything dies in a couple seconds.
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Quote:
The thing I have to interject here is that, unless the blaster PLAYER is a top tier player, then when the fight goes badly the blaster won't turn the tide at all but will be the first to hit the pavement instead (which is just the opposite). In that case what will make the blaster turn the tide is someone else on the team having vengeance (or the defender(s) on the team getting to leverage vigilance).
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
DPS and ability to kill things quickly is something theoretically Blasters can do, but in terms of turning the tide of a fight going badly its very difficult to make the case that blasters have such overwhelmingly higher damage that they can do that fast enough to make a bigger difference than any other damage dealer could.
|
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
If I'm playing on a team of people I don't know very well- let's say on a Fire/Elec- I have two choices. I can only shoot what I know I'm going to kill; that's conservative play. Or, if it looks like things are going bad, I can take that bet that enough damage, fast enough, will change things.
Fireball, Fire Breath, Blaze on the way in, two fast Elec melee attacks, Fire Bolt on the way out: If I don't die partway through, that is a LOT of damage to a lot of guys in under ten seconds. For high level fights, replace Fire Bolt with Inferno if it's that kind of party.
It's damage like anyone else delivers... but more so. If anyone else on the team is doing anything, the minions are gone and so are damn near all the lieutenants, and any bosses are easy meat for the rest of the team.
Yeah, you have to have blaster-sense ("This fight is going ugly in about four seconds") to even try it, and then you have to ignore that blaster-sense and open fire... but it does turn the tide. It just does it before most people are aware that there's a tide to be turned.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
If I'm playing on a team of people I don't know very well- let's say on a Fire/Elec- I have two choices. I can only shoot what I know I'm going to kill; that's conservative play. Or, if it looks like things are going bad, I can take that bet that enough damage, fast enough, will change things.
Fireball, Fire Breath, Blaze on the way in, two fast Elec melee attacks, Fire Bolt on the way out: If I don't die partway through, that is a LOT of damage to a lot of guys in under ten seconds. For high level fights, replace Fire Bolt with Inferno if it's that kind of party. It's damage like anyone else delivers... but more so. If anyone else on the team is doing anything, the minions are gone and so are damn near all the lieutenants, and any bosses are easy meat for the rest of the team. Yeah, you have to have blaster-sense ("This fight is going ugly in about four seconds") to even try it, and then you have to ignore that blaster-sense and open fire... but it does turn the tide. It just does it before most people are aware that there's a tide to be turned. |
However this is the quality of the player, not the AT. The same thing could be said for almost any AT with AoE attacks or hefty debuffs/attacks on long recharges. It's not just about laying down damage (which Blasters do) but seeing where and when to do it. I've seen Blasters turn the tide and I've seen Blasters turned to Jell-o. Neither one was as much about the power of the character as the smarts of the player. Any Corr or debuff Defender could have done the same.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
Quote:
and the corr and defender likely done it better.
|
Originally Posted by Comicsluvr
However this is the quality of the player, not the AT. The same thing could be said for almost any AT with AoE attacks or hefty debuffs/attacks on long recharges. It's not just about laying down damage (which Blasters do) but seeing where and when to do it. I've seen Blasters turn the tide and I've seen Blasters turned to Jell-o. Neither one was as much about the power of the character as the smarts of the player. Any Corr or debuff Defender could have done the same.
|
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
blasters have only one tide turning power - their nuke
if you really want to make it tide turning make its recharge 30 minutes and double its damage.
And to answer your question above, adding damage would help because it would help the blaster kill the enemies aggro'd on him faster.