Blaster Issues - Increased Damage Modifier (Ranged and Melee)
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2012-02-27 14:19 in Blasters
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Agreed. Blasters have the short end of the stick. Scrappers can do the same damage with probably three or four times the survivability of a blaster. I know blasters are "Ranged" but that really doesn't give a true advantage in the long run. Enemies will catch up to you and you can't run and attack.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I personally think their DPS should be higher than any other AT.
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http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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Blasters AoE is significantly superior to scrappers though.
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Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Agreed. Blasters have the short end of the stick. Scrappers can do the same damage with probably three or four times the survivability of a blaster. I know blasters are "Ranged" but that really doesn't give a true advantage in the long run. Enemies will catch up to you and you can't run and attack.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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I recall seeing Arcanaville suggest it should be raised to 1.5, so I'd go with that. |
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
If you think their damage modifier should be increased, by how much should it be increased (if at all)?
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I will agree with this. However, as has been discussed before, we have to consider how the game has evolved, and what is different in "the modern game" than in the older game. I would specifically like to address Blaster Secondary power sets.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
DPS at range: Blasters rule. No one can out damage a blaster in it's natural element.That is all I'm saying. And, by the definition and the design intent of Blasters they are successful as is.
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If you look at the original secondaries (Devices, Electric, Energy, Fire, and Ice) most of the powers can either be qualified as "preventative," or "reactive." They seem to be designed under the impression that a Blaster would begin battle at range, using whatever tools they had to maintain that range. Then, if/when the enemies came into close range, the sets had tools to either quickly dispatch them (powerful melee attacks, DoT auras), or put the enemies back at a distance (Thunder Clap, Frozen Aura, ST Holds/Stuns). Even abilities like Consume and Power Sink are put there are arguably more reactive, since their ability to refuel your own endurance outweighs how much damage or endurance drain (respectively) they do.
The newer sets (Mental Manipulation and Darkness Manipulation) actually promote starting in melee range, having brought powerful preemptive buffs/debuffs such as Drain Psyche and Soul Drain. To wait until the end of a fight to use these abilities is less effective, especially when teamed, since you gain more with the more enemies you hit.
That is the crux of it for me. Blasters seem, more and more, to be encouraged into melee range, but without the defenses of a Scrapper to back us up. And rightly so! I think changes need to be made to either make blasting at range more appealing, or give us an overall higher damage output to compensate (if they wish to continue to make "blapping" worthwhile).
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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Your DPS was not higher, you merely had access to -Regeneration which Scrappers do not and just a single skill from an isolated secondary grants for Blasters. The Scrapper has higher DPS, you have lower DPS + a debuff mechanic the reduces the foe's regeneration.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Only using ranged attacks, but staying in close range to use Drain Psyche every 35 seconds.
I believe the DPS was about 300, which is pretty nice considering I contribute hefty resistance debuffs to the team as well. |
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Fire/Elec Blasters could pull 300+ dps before interface and with no -regen. That was on par with top scrapper combinations (saturated DM/Shield) at the time.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Your DPS was not higher, you merely had access to -Regeneration which Scrappers do not and just a single skill from an isolated secondary grants for Blasters. The Scrapper has higher DPS, you have lower DPS + a debuff mechanic the reduces the foe's regeneration.
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As mentioned by DS, MM is not the only secondary which contains tools allowing to surpass scrapper DPS. |
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Your DPS was not higher, you merely had access to -Regeneration which Scrappers do not and just a single skill from an isolated secondary grants for Blasters. The Scrapper has higher DPS, you have lower DPS + a debuff mechanic the reduces the foe's regeneration.
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If scrappers don't have access to -regen, that's not my blaster's problem. He was told to kill a pylon using the powers at his disposal, and he did, in a time equating 300 DPS.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
The melee modifier should be a lot higher if nothing else.
Elsewhere I suggested raising the radius of AoE attacks, if it is feasible.
Blasters don't need a higher ranged damage modifier.
What they do need is a reduced range penalty in the formulas used to balance the powers. And more importantly a serious look to make sure the primary sets actually can do some decent dps at range.
Take a look at Assault rifle, elec blast and Fire @ 300% recharge in their powers
pwr Rech cast DPA
AR:
Burst: 1.0 1.18 56
Slug : 2.0 1.88 55
Elect
CB: 1.0 1.18 52
LB: 2.0 1.88 55
Fire
Flares: .54 1.18 53
Fire Blast: 1.0 1.88 50
Blaze: 2.5 1.18 159
Now you compare these to Scrapper Claws
Strike: 0.8 1.32 56
Slash: 1.2 1.58 57
Follow:3.0 1.05 52
Focus: 1.6 1.32 72.
At this level of recharge claws can run a continuous 100%+ damage buff on a chain of (follow up, slash, focus) for damage that blows away electric and assault rifle and fire can only exceed by using aim and build up.
This is on the same damage mod. The problem isn't the modifier its the other parts of the formula that assign such a high value to range that most blasters can't hope to have a gapless ranged chain when mezzed or even hope to come close to melee damage output because their ranged damage is being gutshot by a formula that is saying range is a defense and blasters have to pay for it.
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Blasters have a secondary that is meant to be used. A secondary that does an extremely good job at filling out an attack chain with hard hitting attacks. You can't really compare maximized attack chains without factoring in blaster's secondary.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Blasters don't need a higher ranged damage modifier.
What they do need is a reduced range penalty in the formulas used to balance the powers. And more importantly a serious look to make sure the primary sets actually can do some decent dps at range. Take a look at Assault rifle, elec blast and Fire @ 300% recharge in their powers pwr Rech cast DPA AR: Burst: 1.0 1.18 56 Slug : 2.0 1.88 55 Elect CB: 1.0 1.18 52 LB: 2.0 1.88 55 Fire Flares: .54 1.18 53 Fire Blast: 1.0 1.88 50 Blaze: 2.5 1.18 159 Now you compare these to Scrapper Claws Strike: 0.8 1.32 56 Slash: 1.2 1.58 57 Follow:3.0 1.05 52 Focus: 1.6 1.32 72. At this level of recharge claws can run a continuous 100%+ damage buff on a chain of (follow up, slash, focus) for damage that blows away electric and assault rifle and fire can only exceed by using aim and build up. This is on the same damage mod. The problem isn't the modifier its the other parts of the formula that assign such a high value to range that most blasters can't hope to have a gapless ranged chain when mezzed or even hope to come close to melee damage output because their ranged damage is being gutshot by a formula that is saying range is a defense and blasters have to pay for it. |
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Not always true. What powers from devices would you use to fill out an attack chain?
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Blasters have a secondary that is meant to be used. A secondary that does an extremely good job at filling out an attack chain with hard hitting attacks. You can't really compare maximized attack chains without factoring in blaster's secondary.
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MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
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I stayed from there because its such an unfair comparison, I was certain people would accuse me of cooking the books.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Blasters have a secondary that is meant to be used. A secondary that does an extremely good job at filling out an attack chain with hard hitting attacks. You can't really compare maximized attack chains without factoring in blaster's secondary.
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If you go over to the scrapper forums and look at the pylon results thread the top end results for DPS without lore pets etc are all in the mid 200s. For the sake of argument lets call the scrapper top dps 200, and the top blaster dps in melee 300.
The question then is a blaster fighting in melee 2/3rds as survivable as a scrapper fighting in melee ?
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No, but the scrapper has inferior AoE and ranged DPS.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I stayed from there because its such an unfair comparison, I was certain people would accuse me of cooking the books.
If you go over to the scrapper forums and look at the pylon results thread the top end results for DPS without lore pets etc are all in the mid 200s. For the sake of argument lets call the scrapper top dps 200, and the top blaster dps in melee 300. The question then is a blaster fighting in melee 2/3rds as survivable as a scrapper fighting in melee ? |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
I'm hesitant to share this idea. I'm not 100% behind it, since it could end up hurting other ATs a lot, but might as well throw it out there. My feelings will not be hurt if a redname wanders into this thread specifically to shoot this idea down.
Dump melee and ranged damage modifiers. Melee damage and ranged damage aren't different team roles. They both accomplish the same thing. No reason to make a coded distinction.
Instead, add ST and AoE damage modifiers. These are truly different team roles and would be worthy of a distinction. Some ATs should be good AV killers. Some ATs should be good at blowing away minions/LTs en masse. Blasters I would suggest be good at both.
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I suggested it once to Castle, and once to Black Scorpion, and once to Synapse. And in all three cases I also reminded them that the playerbase would go, well, ballistic is what I will say here. Its not what I said to them.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
I'm hesitant to share this idea. I'm not 100% behind it, since it could end up hurting other ATs a lot, but might as well throw it out there. My feelings will not be hurt if a redname wanders into this thread specifically to shoot this idea down.
Dump melee and ranged damage modifiers. Melee damage and ranged damage aren't different team roles. They both accomplish the same thing. No reason to make a coded distinction. Instead, add ST and AoE damage modifiers. These are truly different team roles and would be worthy of a distinction. Some ATs should be good AV killers. Some ATs should be good at blowing away minions/LTs en masse. Blasters I would suggest be good at both. |
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It's completely fair. If you're going to compare two ATs in terms of dps (or anything else) you can't just ignore half of one of the AT's abilities. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I stayed from there because its such an unfair comparison, I was certain people would accuse me of cooking the books.
If you go over to the scrapper forums and look at the pylon results thread the top end results for DPS without lore pets etc are all in the mid 200s. For the sake of argument lets call the scrapper top dps 200, and the top blaster dps in melee 300. The question then is a blaster fighting in melee 2/3rds as survivable as a scrapper fighting in melee ? |
Also, on rikti pylon thread the highest blaster dps and the highest scrapper dps were both at about 300 without incarnates factored in.
Their dps is equivalent, however the scrapper is more survivable, but you can't say the scrapper is both capable of putting out more dps and being more survivable cause that's not true.
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You can in a manner of speaking. When the blaster is defeated his DPS drops to zero. The scrapper will always pull ahead even if his DPS is significantly lower.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
It's completely fair. If you're going to compare two ATs in terms of dps (or anything else) you can't just ignore half of one of the AT's abilities.
Also, on rikti pylon thread the highest blaster dps and the highest scrapper dps were both at about 300 without incarnates factored in. Their dps is equivalent, however the scrapper is more survivable, but you can't say the scrapper is both capable of putting out more dps and being more survivable cause that's not true. |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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That's an "if" not a "when" and a "can" not a "will" and an overall extremely presumptuous statement assuming the blaster /will/ die no matter what.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
You can in a manner of speaking. When the blaster is defeated his DPS drops to zero. The scrapper will always pull ahead even if his DPS is significantly lower.
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^This.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
That's an "if" not a "when" and a "can" not a "will" and an overall extremely presumptuous statement assuming the blaster /will/ die no matter what.
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At the upper end of investment in a build, blasters have some of the best possible potential out of any archetype (Especially when you're looking at /mental).
Blasters may not have a defensive set, but that doesn't stop someone dedicated enough from permanently softcapping smashing/lethal/ranged/energy/negative energy defenses on one. I did it on my fire/mental blaster.
Once you hit that point, you're just as survivable as a scrapper.
Scratch that.
More survivable, because it's also backed up by insane regeneration from Drain Psyche.
And for those times when I take a stun from some Olympian Guards to the face and go down? No DPS lost, it just means I get to use my extra nuke, Rise of the Phoenix, and get right back to blasting them in the face.
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Softcapping S/L defense without Scorpion Shield is hard enough, I am baffled at how you managed to softcap S/L/R/E/N without it.
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Originally Posted by Feather_Of_Sun
^This.
At the upper end of investment in a build, blasters have some of the best possible potential out of any archetype (Especially when you're looking at /mental). Blasters may not have a defensive set, but that doesn't stop someone dedicated enough from permanently softcapping smashing/lethal/ranged/energy/negative energy defenses on one. I did it on my fire/mental blaster. Once you hit that point, you're just as survivable as a scrapper. Scratch that. More survivable, because it's also backed up by insane regeneration from Drain Psyche. And for those times when I take a stun from some Olympian Guards to the face and go down? No DPS lost, it just means I get to use my extra nuke, Rise of the Phoenix, and get right back to blasting them in the face. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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People keep saying this, but I do not believe it to be true. An ultrahigh end softcapped /mental blaster is going to be stronger than the *average* scrapper, but that's irrelevant. I don't think such a blaster would be stronger than a scrapper that put a similar amount of effort into mitigation. However, I'm willing to be proven wrong. Perhaps you can specifically test this Fire/Mental build against +2x8, +3x8, and +4x8 spawns of different high level critters - Carnies, Malta, Cimerorans, Arachnos, Longbow, and Rularuu, say. At what point does the build fail, if ever.|
Originally Posted by Feather_Of_Sun
^This.
At the upper end of investment in a build, blasters have some of the best possible potential out of any archetype (Especially when you're looking at /mental). Blasters may not have a defensive set, but that doesn't stop someone dedicated enough from permanently softcapping smashing/lethal/ranged/energy/negative energy defenses on one. I did it on my fire/mental blaster. Once you hit that point, you're just as survivable as a scrapper. Scratch that. More survivable, because it's also backed up by insane regeneration from Drain Psyche. And for those times when I take a stun from some Olympian Guards to the face and go down? No DPS lost, it just means I get to use my extra nuke, Rise of the Phoenix, and get right back to blasting them in the face. |
A video would be even better, so the exact tactics used to obtain that performance can be studied.
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Ummmm.|
Originally Posted by Feather_Of_Sun
Blasters may not have a defensive set, but that doesn't stop someone dedicated enough from permanently softcapping smashing/lethal/ranged/energy/negative energy defenses on one. I did it on my fire/mental blaster.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Softcapping S/L defense without Scorpion Shield is hard enough, I am baffled at how you managed to softcap S/L/R/E/N without it.
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Can you share with us a build that shows how to manage this that doesn't involve 'and I checked my combat monitor after hitting Barrier' ?
And I'm with Arcana. I can outperform typical pug scrappers and brutes on my DP/Mental, but I'm not going anywhere near top end scrappers and brutes, and I remain highly dubious it's possible with the limited number of ways to gain -- and limited kinds of -- mitigation on solo blasters.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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You are not correct. That is a when not an if. It's not presumptuous its statistical. That's the point that you keep glossing over. No blaster can come close to scrapper levels of mitigation. What you are engaging in is a false comparison.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
That's an "if" not a "when" and a "can" not a "will" and an overall extremely presumptuous statement assuming the blaster /will/ die no matter what.
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Scrappers can come very close to blaster levels of damage. WHEN the blaster dies the scrapper pulls ahead in DPS.
The only cases that the scenario is true as you are putting it is when you take a single instance snap shot. Such as comparing 2 successful pylon attempts. Sure you have a blaster that succeeded to compare to the scrapper that succeeded BUT the blaster may have required 5 attempts while the scrapper did it the first time.
If you try to tell me, "Oh, it was the first attempt for both." Then you have a different issue (and another false comparison). You have non-equivalent levels of skill. The blaster player is more skillful if the DPS is similar but the mitigation values are wildly different (which numerically is the case).
The last case where you can get skewed results is in the case where the content is so easy that mitigation doesn't matter. If both the scrapper and the blaster are in little to no danger of defeat then DPS will be much closer and you will have a false comparison again.
If you want a true picture of comparative DPS you HAVE to have accurate comparisons. In this case you need to set up a scenario, have 2 players of equal skill and then calculate using all the time it takes to complete the scenario as a total. Then you need to increase your sample size to make sure that you aren't comparing outliers. The devs do this by data mining. What you are doing is attempting to present 2 non-equivalent cases as evidence.
If you want to put it in a "whole game" perspective I would almost be willing to bet that due to lack of mitigation AND lack of mez protection the aggregate Blaster has a lower DPS than the aggregate Defender.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
In a space targeting a discussion of Blasters having the top DPS, agreed, they do not have it. Whether they should or not, I have little opinion on. Are they fun and feel great as is? That I will answer with a confident yes, and I feel there are far more important things for the Devs to consider and work on.
And the building to raise defense discussion is relavent from earlier. I can't speak to successful softcapping, but getting as high as possible - particularly against ranged - is valuable, no doubt. But that is equally true for corrs, defs, doms, etc....
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Completely agree, if determining position in the grand DPS picture is the goal. For myself, I know where the kings of total DPS are already and the top ranged only DPS there doesn't seem much need for further study.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
If you want a true picture of comparative DPS you HAVE to have accurate comparisons. In this case you need to set up a scenario, have 2 players of equal skill and then calculate using all the time it takes to complete the scenario as a total.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Then you need to increase your sample size to make sure that you aren't comparing outliers. The devs do this by data mining. What you are doing is attempting to present 2 non-equivalent cases as evidence.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
If you want to put it in a "whole game" perspective I would almost be willing to bet that due to lack of mitigation AND lack of mez protection the aggregate Blaster has a lower DPS than the aggregate Defender.
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I doubt it's the case with all sets, but yeesh that's close. The only single target blast Energy Blast has that does more damage than Energy Assault (according to mids) is Power Bolt.
I've generally felt that Dominators play like Blasters with holds. Probably why they've always been so comfortable, after my first/main Ice/Ice Blaster.