The difference between a SR scrapper and a SR brute?


Bill Z Bubba

 

Posted

I have a Katana/SR at 32, but I've got a question. Is a brute in general more suited towards super reflexes? It seems like it would be easier to softcap, and allow my primary to thrive, but surely Scrappers have some ups, as well as downs. And I'm lost on it.
So, what's the difference between a scrapper and a brute with the same build?


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Posted

Base values are identical.
Scaling resists in the passives are identical.
No easier to softcap one over the other.

Brutes have higher base hit points get more out of the scaling resists because of it.
Brute evasion has a taunt aura.
Brute SR power order makes more sense but getting quickness so much later in the build can be a downer.


Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

And Brutes have a higher damage cap and get Fury.


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Posted

And brutes do significantly less damage with most primaries ceteris paribus. SS is an exception as scrappers do not, and never will, get it. Katana is not an exception because scrappers do get it and it benefits from scrappers' radically superior build up, musculature, assault, enhanced critical values, and so on.


 

Posted

I made a brute clone of my kat/SR build to compare their numbers. Since mid's does not have ATO's yet though numbers can be change but from current point on same choices or closer ones (my scrapper kat/SR have body mastery but brutes don't get it so I put energy mastery instead which was closest).

I assume both builds have purple ATO placed on soaring dragon.

Both build have softcap positional (ATO's set bonuses are same) and with one small purple both can get to incarnate softcap. %15.62 res to s/l (with ATO), %177.5 global recharge (again with ATO) and %33 global damage bonus (again with ATO)

Brute has 116.8% max end while scrapper has only 111.8% (because of difference between conserve power and superior conditioning) both has %219 recovery but scrappers is actually 4.08 end/s while brutes is 4.26 end/s.) Also scrapper has only two performance shifter proc slotted while brute has three (again because of difference between superior conditioning and conserve power)

Scrapper's Golden Dragonfly's per animation damage is 222.5 (ATO crit chance increase as well %3 global damage bonus doesn't included since mids still doesn't have it and I don't know how it may effect GD)

Brutes Golden Dragonfly does 205.8 damage with %80 fury (ATO doesn't included in here as well).

Asuuming that build up was up scrapper's GD does 305.4 damage while brute GD only does
244.3.

Assuming that gaussian's build up proc fired up together with build up (rare but I saw this happening a few times) scrappers damage is 388.2 while brute's damage is 282.7.

With %100 furry (brute ATO AFAIK lets brutes to get to %100 furry) brutes damage is 225. With only one build up this increase to 263.5 and with both build up its 301.9.

A point on damage to keep in mind; Mids calculate chance of critical in its calculations so the damage with build up's may not end up as how its calculated on an avarage scale.


 

Posted

To sum up what's already been said, and add my 2 Inf:

1- Brutes and Scrappers get identical base Defense and Resists. Brutes have higher resist caps, but no SR is going to get close to the resist cap without outside buffs or inspirations.
2- Brutes and Scrappers have identical base Regen and Heals. However, both are based off your HP total, and Brutes have higher base and cap. Therefore, Brutes can survive the hits that get through better, regen those hits faster, and (if they take Aid Self) heal themselves for more.
3- Brutes have the lowest base damage in the game. Average levels of Fury will put a Brute and Scrapper at even damage levels based on SO slotting and no buffs. Damage buffs are based off base damage, so the same buff gives a bigger boost to the Scrapper. On top of that, Scrappers have a higher buff scalar than brutes, so they get a bigger bonus than Brutes. For example, Scrapper Build Up adds 100% to their base 1.125 damage, where Brutes add 80% to their base 0.8 damage, meaning that a scale 1 attack performed with Build Up in effect deals scale 1.44 damage on a Brute and scale 2.25 damage on a Scrapper.
4- Most Legacy power sets that get Proliferated get long-standing issues tweaked, but if the tweaks involve reordering the powers, only the new AT(s) get reordered. Brutes are the newcomers in this case, so they get the better power order, and have all their most important powers by level 20. Waiting for Quickness is a drag, but far better than waiting for your AoE defense. Katana isn't going to lose much by waiting for Quickness anyways.
5- (Not applicable to Kat/SR) Damage auras Are an exception to #3 above - they're better in a Brute's hands.

Short version:
Kat/SR Scrapper does more damage, faster, and at a consistant amount. They are weak to AoE attacks for over half the leveling process.
Kat/SR Brute does less damage, and has to ramp up to it, and is slower for a good chunk of the middle levels. However, they have solid defenses to all positions before they get SOs, and survive better on equivalent slotting.


@Roderick

 

Posted

SR Scrappers get Quickness at level 20, Brutes at level 35.

SR Scrappers get Evasion at 35, Brutes at level 20(Brute version also functions as an Aggro Aura; detoggles if mezzed).


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot View Post
SR Scrappers get Evasion at 35, Brutes at level 20(Brute version also functions as an Aggro Aura; detoggles if mezzed).
Only toggles that debuff or damage enemies get detoggled. Taunt auras like Rise to the Challenge and Blazing Aura will drop, but Evasion won't, because it's purely self-buff and taunt.


@Roderick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderick View Post
Only toggles that debuff or damage enemies get detoggled. Taunt auras like Rise to the Challenge[/img]
Which is annoying to no end. At least it doesn't happen very often on /Willpower.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
And brutes do significantly less damage with most primaries ceteris paribus. SS is an exception as scrappers do not, and never will, get it. Katana is not an exception because scrappers do get it and it benefits from scrappers' radically superior build up, musculature, assault, enhanced critical values, and so on.
My FM brute disagrees, as fury afects the DoT.


Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?

Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobbledygook View Post
My FM brute disagrees, as fury afects the DoT.
He did say most. Claws is another set that's better on brutes than on scrappers.


Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
He did say most. Claws is another set that's better on brutes than on scrappers.
Yeah, I'm tempted to reroll my AV soloer to a brute.


Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?

Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
He did say most. Claws is another set that's better on brutes than on scrappers.
That sorta depends on how slow you wanna go, or not go. The differing speeds make that assertion not a slam dunk, as this topic has proved during it's repeated debates in both the scrapper and brute forums...


 

Posted

... There's a speed slower than killmaimpillage? I go the same speed on all my brutes and scrappers.


Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

To expand on what I said, beyond the slight advantage many scrapper sets tend to get by themselves due to crits, in my opinion the biggest factor for a "neutral" set like katana is whether you want to use musculature or a different alpha. Musculature is great for scrappers but a fair bit less great for brutes. Specifically, brute tier 4 musculature is going to do not quite twice as much for you as scrapper assault, and one of those things takes up your alpha slot. Obviously not every build stands to benefit more from musculature than from other things in the first place so your mileage may vary.


 

Posted

For many, Brutes doing a bit less damage than Scrappers (which if I'm not mistaken, Scrappers win in the damage department with this combo), is more than made up with an aggro aura (though I have no idea how good SR's is, it's still more than nothing) to keep themselves surrounded and not chasing after enemies and higher survival, which in this case is just a matter of extra HP and the extra regen that gives.

Note however, this is going the solo route. And outside of a few minutes of staying at the damaage cap by downing a bunch of reds, having a higher damage cap means nothing if you can't reach it solo.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
if I'm not mistaken, Scrappers win in the damage department with this combo
You are correct.

Quote:
I have no idea how good SR's is, it's still more than nothing
For Scrappers and Stalkers, there is no aggro aura.
For Brutes, it's the strong version, equal to Invuln's.
For tanks, it's the crappy weak version, equal to WP's.
Weird, huh?


@Roderick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
For many, Brutes doing a bit less damage than Scrappers (which if I'm not mistaken, Scrappers win in the damage department with this combo), is more than made up with an aggro aura (though I have no idea how good SR's is, it's still more than nothing) to keep themselves surrounded and not chasing after enemies and higher survival, which in this case is just a matter of extra HP and the extra regen that gives.

Note however, this is going the solo route. And outside of a few minutes of staying at the damaage cap by downing a bunch of reds, having a higher damage cap means nothing if you can't reach it solo.
Depends on your play style a bit. If you regularly team with a kinetics player having the higher damage cap means that you at at it all the time. The Brute's taunt aura means that you'll be getting the maximum number of mobs hit with fulcrum shift each time.

Solo, if you are playing a primary that has a decent variety of and/or fast recharging AoE and you choose an epic with fast recharging AoE you can keep yourself at (or near) the damage cap by munching and converting insps especially if you write macros to convert the insps quickly. A brute with lots of AoE can (if you are a power gamer/farmer and practice) self damage cap this way because insps drop faster than you can eat them.


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-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight View Post
Depends on your play style a bit. If you regularly team with a kinetics player having the higher damage cap means that you at at it all the time. The Brute's taunt aura means that you'll be getting the maximum number of mobs hit with fulcrum shift each time.

Solo, if you are playing a primary that has a decent variety of and/or fast recharging AoE and you choose an epic with fast recharging AoE you can keep yourself at (or near) the damage cap by munching and converting insps especially if you write macros to convert the insps quickly. A brute with lots of AoE can (if you are a power gamer/farmer and practice) self damage cap this way because insps drop faster than you can eat them.
Which I would say isnt the norm on the solo part, and like I said, solo wise.

Though, I'm not sure if Brute at constant damage out damages Scrappers or if it's based on certain primaries.

Damage cap Brute vs damage cap Scrapper...no idea.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Damage cap Brute vs damage cap Scrapper...no idea.
Just pulling up a couple attacks on Dark Melee; other power sets might be different.

Smite
Scrapper: Base - 90.84, Cap - 454.2
Brute: Base - 55.05, Cap - 426.64

Shadow Maul
Scrapper: Base - 148.4, Cap - 742
Brute: Base - 89.92, Cap - 696.88

Siphon Life
Scrapper: Base - 134.9, Cap - 674.5
Brute: Base - 81.75, Cap - 633.56

Midnight Grasp
Scrapper: Base - 189.9, Cap - 949.5
Brute: Base - 115.1, Cap - 892.025

In all cases, the scrapper ends up ahead. No source of +Damage will add anything to either at this point. Procs add a fixed amount regardless of AT, so neither benefits from this. Fiery Embrace adds an amount of damage calculated off Base damage, so the scrapper pulls ever further ahead. And the scrapper will score crits 5-10% of the time, pulling even further ahead again.

It's likely that the same is true for other sets as well.


@Roderick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
He did say most. Claws is another set that's better on brutes than on scrappers.
Can you expand on this one a bit? I love claws on a scrapper but since the fury changes I did not want to put time into a brute for this. How is the brute version better?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRyu View Post
How is the brute version better?
The Brute version of claws has a higher damage scale on its attacks (and appropriately longer recharge/higher end cost). Whether this means brutes or scrappers end up doing more damage with Claws is debated, but in a sense, if brutes are even competitive with scrappers for damage using Claws, when brutes almost as a rule deal less damage than scrappers (especially with sets that provide good damage buffs like Claws), I think it is indeed fair to say the brute version of Claws is better.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRyu View Post
Can you expand on this one a bit? I love claws on a scrapper but since the fury changes I did not want to put time into a brute for this. How is the brute version better?
The new Brute ATO proc lets you maintain 100 percent fury again, pretty much indefinitely, from what I can tell.

So, uh, yeah. Brutes are better.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderick View Post
Just pulling up a couple attacks on Dark Melee; other power sets might be different.

Smite
Scrapper: Base - 90.84, Cap - 454.2
Brute: Base - 55.05, Cap - 426.64

Shadow Maul
Scrapper: Base - 148.4, Cap - 742
Brute: Base - 89.92, Cap - 696.88

Siphon Life
Scrapper: Base - 134.9, Cap - 674.5
Brute: Base - 81.75, Cap - 633.56

Midnight Grasp
Scrapper: Base - 189.9, Cap - 949.5
Brute: Base - 115.1, Cap - 892.025

In all cases, the scrapper ends up ahead. No source of +Damage will add anything to either at this point. Procs add a fixed amount regardless of AT, so neither benefits from this. Fiery Embrace adds an amount of damage calculated off Base damage, so the scrapper pulls ever further ahead. And the scrapper will score crits 5-10% of the time, pulling even further ahead again.

It's likely that the same is true for other sets as well.
You're counting criticals in your math and then saying that "because of criticals Scrappers pull even farther ahead". That's not true. Criticals are why the Scrapper pulls ahead when they're both capped, and they'd be behind if they didn't have them. This also means that Fiery Embrace works much better for Brutes than for Scrappers.

Using the actual numbers for the power without criticals and not relying on what Mid's says when you include the average chance for critical:

Smite:
Brute base: 55.06 (41.71 + 13.35), at cap (+675%, 775% total) = 426.715
Scrapper base: 82.58 (62.56 + 20.02), at cap (+400%, 500% total) = 412.9
Scrapper at cap, adding in a 10% critical rate: 454.19


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
The new Brute ATO proc lets you maintain 100 percent fury again, pretty much indefinitely, from what I can tell.

So, uh, yeah. Brutes are better.
OMG serious???? I read in the beta thread that it does nothing. So is it just claws and the ATO or any set with ATOs?


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