RIP Placate, we knew ye well.
Thought I was just getting lucky with my Stalker when I tested it briefly yesterday. If this really is WAI, well, hells yeah come on I22 I want my super attack chain.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
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From what we can tell this is working the way it's supposed to, as the proc chance is based on the recharge of the power. It's not exactly 100% though as I've had it not trigger.
So far no changes have been made to it in beta, and this behaviour is known.
Synapse replied to one of the private messages that Assassin strike is supposed to proc 100% chance. It sounds a bit high to me but then again, this is a new mechanism so I don't know.
There are other bugs associated with this new ATO. Some people reported that you get put back in hidden from time to time.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Hm, no, I don't think this will be the end of placate. Placate is good for dumping too much agro if you have it, and its useful in pvp.
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Hew in drag baby
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Synapse replied to one of the private messages that Assassin strike is supposed to proc 100% chance. It sounds a bit high to me but then again, this is a new mechanism so I don't know.
There are other bugs associated with this new ATO. Some people reported that you get put back in hidden from time to time. |
Awesome that means the AS is WAI. YAY!!!!!!
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I don't think Placate is useless too. |
Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
Hm, no, I don't think this will be the end of placate. Placate is good for dumping too much agro if you have it, and its useful in pvp.
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Take SJ for example, yes Asssassin Strike procs and you get put back in hidden and your CU gets critical. This just means you can use Placate and use Spinning Strike for 50% critical rate. (or vice versa)
The options are still there.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Yeah, it's based on recharge. Hawk's example was a 2 proc per minute single-target power requiring a base recharge of 30 seconds to go off 100% of the time.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Synapse replied to one of the private messages that Assassin strike is supposed to proc 100% chance. It sounds a bit high to me but then again, this is a new mechanism so I don't know.
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So, based on that, the Stalker proc being 4ppm would mean you need a 15 second base recharge to be 100%, which handily enough, AS is. The chance is allegedly lower the higher a power's target cap is, though.
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Oh so aoe attacks will have less chance even if it has longer recharge.
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Originally Posted by Android_5Point9
Yeah, it's based on recharge. Hawk's example was a 2 proc per minute single-target power requiring a base recharge of 30 seconds to go off 100% of the time.
So, based on that, the Stalker proc being 4ppm would mean you need a 15 second base recharge to be 100%, which handily enough, AS is. The chance is allegedly lower the higher a power's target cap is, though. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Or for Placate -> Burst for 100% Crit!
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
I don't think Placate is useless too.
Take SJ for example, yes Asssassin Strike procs and you get put back in hidden and your CU gets critical. This just means you can use Placate and use Spinning Strike for 50% critical rate. (or vice versa) The options are still there. |
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Has anyone else tested this on StJ besides me because the 100% hide in AS was not working. I chained SB-SC-SB-AS-CU-repeat with the Superior Stalker's Guile proc in AS and I only had 2 criticals out of 12 tries.
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Right, but I believe that's a trade off for a chance to proc against each enemy it hits. The rational person in me wants to say the chance to fire is just the standard recharge formula divided by the target cap, but knowing how screwy systems can be in CoH, I wouldn't be too sure. That, and no official formula has come out for aoes.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Oh so aoe attacks will have less chance even if it has longer recharge.
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Originally Posted by ricohdah
Has anyone else tested this on StJ besides me because the 100% hide in AS was not working. I chained SB-SC-SB-AS-CU-repeat with the Superior Stalker's Guile proc in AS and I only had 2 criticals out of 12 tries.
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I finally bought all 6 pieces of Stalker ATO and went to beta to test SJ. According to dev, the proc in Assassin Strike is supposed to get triggered 100% because A-strike has base 15s recharge. |
Originally Posted by Android_5Point9
Did some fairly extensive testing with it using Staff on beta, and I was getting the Hide proc with every AS. If it's not doing that (especially on the superior version), I'd file a bug report or wait till i22 to see if it's really working.
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Well, that is not the case at all. Not only I am not seeing 100% chance critical after A-strike hits, there are times that I get put back in hidden right before I use a-strike and it makes it an interruptable attack. Somebody already explained to me how this could happen and it's because the second proc duration (10s) won't start until the first one wears off.
So Staff gets hidden proc every time your assassin strike lands? mmmm..
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
There is an issue with the proc in that it takes half a second to fully activate. You can queue an attack before then, and this attack won't get the critical hit bonus, but since the attack lands when hidden status is up it takes hidden status away.
I have the ATO set and proc on Concentrated Strike from Kinetic Melee, and it ROCKS!. The proc triggers nearly 100% of the time, and with it I can pull off some mad combos. Currently, I have two chains that I use. First is against a group in general:
Build up -> AS from hide -> CS (proc) -> Burst from hide -> other stuff
And this is good for doing severe damage to one target while thoroughly debuffing the spawn and doing medium damage to it. However, if I am fighting a strong single target like an EB or an AV, I use this chain:
BU -> CS from hide (proc) -> 2nd BU -> AS -> another attack or two -> placate -> CS from hide (proc) -> BU -> AS.
The damage output is insane. With Musculature Core Paragon and my current setup (18.5% damage bonus from sets), that AS dishes out 1950 damage in a single strike. Now, I like to do that since I can go "Oh hey, I hit nightstar for 2000 damage. Isn't that nice?", but I am aware this isn't optimal. Some time from the first buildup is wasted on the second build up, so I'm losing some damage there. The alternate version of that chain is where I don't use that second buidlup. CS from hide means build up is always ready for when I begin the chain again, and this is a more efficient use.
Now, I know it seems like it is a good idea to slot the proc in AS, and it kind of is. However, the move which benefits the most from the proc is AS itself. AS from hide is the strongest attack that any stalker can learn barring AoE moves. It is somewhat gimped by requiring placate, but even then it had a DPS higher than most attacks. With the ATO proc, you can use AS from hide without needing that extra time for placate, pushing your DPS into the "insane" category.
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I had thought about that, but even at softcap, against enemies I'd want the best DPS for, I always found myself getting interrupted. :/|
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
There is an issue with the proc in that it takes half a second to fully activate. You can queue an attack before then, and this attack won't get the critical hit bonus, but since the attack lands when hidden status is up it takes hidden status away.
I have the ATO set and proc on Concentrated Strike from Kinetic Melee, and it ROCKS!. The proc triggers nearly 100% of the time, and with it I can pull off some mad combos. Currently, I have two chains that I use. First is against a group in general: Build up -> AS from hide -> CS (proc) -> Burst from hide -> other stuff And this is good for doing severe damage to one target while thoroughly debuffing the spawn and doing medium damage to it. However, if I am fighting a strong single target like an EB or an AV, I use this chain: BU -> CS from hide (proc) -> 2nd BU -> AS -> another attack or two -> placate -> CS from hide (proc) -> BU -> AS. The damage output is insane. With Musculature Core Paragon and my current setup (18.5% damage bonus from sets), that AS dishes out 1950 damage in a single strike. Now, I like to do that since I can go "Oh hey, I hit nightstar for 2000 damage. Isn't that nice?", but I am aware this isn't optimal. Some time from the first buildup is wasted on the second build up, so I'm losing some damage there. The alternate version of that chain is where I don't use that second buidlup. CS from hide means build up is always ready for when I begin the chain again, and this is a more efficient use. Now, I know it seems like it is a good idea to slot the proc in AS, and it kind of is. However, the move which benefits the most from the proc is AS itself. AS from hide is the strongest attack that any stalker can learn barring AoE moves. It is somewhat gimped by requiring placate, but even then it had a DPS higher than most attacks. With the ATO proc, you can use AS from hide without needing that extra time for placate, pushing your DPS into the "insane" category. |
Though, I'd be curious as to the DPS of said chain compared to the one I came up for my KM/WP (BB - SB - FB - AS - CS - BU - Repeat)
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"Insane" category is exaggerated when the proc turns Assassin Strike into an interruptable attack. And if you get interrupted, you lose endurance and dps potential.|
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
It is somewhat gimped by requiring placate, but even then it had a DPS higher than most attacks. With the ATO proc, you can use AS from hide without needing that extra time for placate, pushing your DPS into the "insane" category.
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With the new stalker change, I do not want my a-strike to get turned into interruptable attack unless I am really hidden or I use placate.
Your suggestion on proc in Concentrated Strike sounds very good. I am SJ, I may try putting it in Uppercut and follow up with Spinning Strike. By the way, does this mean that we shouldn't que the next attack too quick so the bug doesn't happen?
I am really hoping they can fix the proc because getting the hidden proc (is that really hidden?) after A-strike just makes a lot of sense. Young stalkers are going to start the fight with BU + AS and getting another critical after that can really increase damage output a lot.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
The flaw in the system is that it is still interruptable.
And yes, it is annoying to have to "wait" for the proc, but you'll have to wait half a second to make sure it goes off.
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Fixed that for you. Also, strictly for DPS Assassin's Strike outside of hidden status (once i22 goes live, dealing 2.76 scale damage in a 1 second animation for Arcanatime-adjusted scale 2.323 per second) is better than Assassin's Strike from hidden status (2.21/second) - and that's without Placate. With 2 stacks of Assassin's Focus it's better for DPS than the old 1-second animation of Energy Transfer (3.838); AS from hidden is very good but it's not that good.|
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
Now, I know it seems like it is a good idea to slot the proc in AS, and it kind of is. However, the move which benefits the most from the proc is AS itself. AS from hide is the strongest attack that any stalker can learn barring max combo-level Crushing Uppercut on a single target or a variety of AoEs with sufficient target saturation. It is somewhat gimped by requiring placate, but even then it had a DPS higher than most attacks. With the ATO proc, you can use AS from hide without needing that extra time for placate, pushing your DPS into the "insane" category.
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Here is an old post from when it was announced where I showed the scales with different levels of Assassin's Focus and the numbers for the non-standard AS animations (KM, DB, BS, NB, StJ).
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Are we actually hiding away from the main target because when I was testing last night in regular mission, I didn't notice any of the enemy stops attacking when the proc goes off. What exactly is that "stealth" for? |
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
The flaw in the system is that it is still interruptable.
And yes, it is annoying to have to "wait" for the proc, but you'll have to wait half a second to make sure it goes off. |
Does the critical go away if I get hit before clicking the follow up attack?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I really do hate when I build my toons around a core mechanic, and then the devs up and make it obsolete. However, until I22 goes live, AS from hide still outperforms most attacks the game has. In Kinetic Melee, for example, the attack with the highest DPA is Concentrated Strike, which is 1.20 (if I did the math right) Scale Damage Per Activation time (what I will call SDPA for short). |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Fixed that for you. Also, strictly for DPS Assassin's Strike outside of hidden status (once i22 goes live, dealing 2.76 scale damage in a 1 second animation for Arcanatime-adjusted scale 2.323 per second) is better than Assassin's Strike from hidden status (2.21/second) - and that's without Placate. With 2 stacks of Assassin's Focus it's better for DPS than the old 1-second animation of Energy Transfer (3.838); AS from hidden is very good but it's not that good.
Here is an old post from when it was announced where I showed the scales with different levels of Assassin's Focus and the numbers for the non-standard AS animations (KM, DB, BS, NB, StJ). |
If AS is normalized to have the 3 second activation time and placate with 1.5 second time, then adjusting for arcanatime it would have a SDPA of 1.47. I'm not used to dealing with damage scales (values for which I cannot find the existence of anywhere in the game). I made a post about it awhile ago, and these are the numbers I am used to referencing. But for now, unless they have changed things, the SDPA of 2.21 is pretty much unheard of on stalkers. Though I haven't run the numbers on street justice yet (like dual blades, complicated system that I won't fully understand until I play it).
EDIT: I will really miss all my foes being under perpetual demoralize, too.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Are we actually hiding away from the main target because when I was testing last night in regular mission, I didn't notice any of the enemy stops attacking when the proc goes off. What exactly is that "stealth" for?
Does the critical go away if I get hit before clicking the follow up attack? |
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Damage scales are what the AT modifiers are multiplied by to generate damage numbers, and it's what the devs report in the patch notes when they list changes to damage powers. The actual AT modifier for Stalker melee damage isn't 1.0 - it fluctuates by level starting at -10.0 and increasing to -55.610 at level 50. The modifier was only translated to "1.0" because people set a baseline for Blasters a long time ago (before their range damage changed) and it stuck since it's easier to compare things using that scale than, say, having to use a chart like this. Even the relative modifiers don't line up until level 20, but the damage scale for the power is constant - only the number that it's multiplied by changes.|
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
I'm not used to dealing with damage scales (values for which I cannot find the existence of anywhere in the game). I made a post about it awhile ago, and these are the numbers I am used to referencing. But for now, unless they have changed things, the SDPA of 2.21 is pretty much unheard of on stalkers. Though I haven't run the numbers on street justice yet (like dual blades, complicated system that I won't fully understand until I play it).
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The reason you don't see it in the in-game numbers is because the multiplication is done for you - you select the AT from the list in the upper-right of the info window and it takes the scale and multiplies it by the modifier so you don't have to do the math yourself. But to convert it, you just multiply the scale by the AT modifier to get base damage, multiply that by 1 + (damage buffs in percent) to get slotted damage, and multiply that result by 1 + critical rate as percentage for most powers (reduced criticals require more math) to get the average DPA including criticals.
And yes, scale 2.21 currently is the best consistent DPA for Stalkers; even once you include Placate the 1.47 is extremely high in the rank for DPA. But with the changes in i22, you're better off not using it unless you need the burst - something has to die now - or the demoralize to-hit debuff/chance for fear.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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So what does this mean in practice? We have to not have attacks queued after AS, but wait for "Hidden" to appear and then activate them?|
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
There is an issue with the proc in that it takes half a second to fully activate. You can queue an attack before then, and this attack won't get the critical hit bonus, but since the attack lands when hidden status is up it takes hidden status away.
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Is this why Ricodah's not seeing it with AS-CU?
... Yes, if you have the proc in AS.
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I didnt have this problem with KM.
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Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
... Yes, if you have the proc in AS.
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I had the problem with KM. Concentrated strike wouldn't recharge build up after the proc fired unless I waited half a second after the proc fired.
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so the Stalker's Guile proc seems to have 100% chance to proc if put in AS ... which apparently is WAI ..... which means for StJ, you can hit BU, AS from Hide, instantly get +2 combo points, instantly get put back into Hide by the Proc, and then use CU for the combo and critical dmg. fun times!