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Only the developers know that. But my record is:|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
And yet, what is the first-time success rate is for the iTrials? Low single-digit percentage, at best?
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BAF: Failed at Siege due to being overwhelmed by 9CUs.
Lambda: Success.
Keyes: Success, however the league leader had done it on Test before.
UG: Success, however the league leader had done it on Test before.
TPN: Success.
MoM: Success.
I do think that failure is largely due player incompetence, not trial design or difficulty. Simple mistakes like not bothering to read up on the trial and what you will face (fundamental to all good strategy - know thy foe), bringing insufficiently level shifted or poorly designed characters, poor situational awareness and reflexes etc. Many players also display poor attitude, such as lying dead on the floor rather than helping, or demoralizing the league ("we're not going to make it", "this is too hard").
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When TPN first went live, I ws on one of Pinnacle's first runs of the trial (a "trial run" if you will, har har). We didn't have any expectation of succeeding, and we didn't, it was more of a "let's see how this works" sort of thing. And I like that, I like experimenting with strategies. And it's not like we're just being tossed in blind, every single trial has had a guide posted in its patch notes, so there's really no excuse at all for not knowing what's going on. What's that, you don't read the patch notes? Well whose fault is that?|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I do not mind difficult. it should be difficult. I mind poor witing. TPN is easy because you just grind the same thing in different spots forever. It is dumb writing in the extreme. And poor programming as well it seems.
The Minds of Mayhem is indeed difficult. I only know what I am doing there because of a very good instruction from someone. In game. The Trial itself offers nothing of value in determining what you should do. That is the problem. You cannot write content and expect people to know what to attempt to do. That is sloppy and unforgivable from a content provider. Shame. Shame. |
Also I really don't give a damn about the story in any of the trials, City of Heroes has pretty poor writing on the whole anyway. If I wanted good writing, I'd get off the computer and read a book.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
My first-of record, just for an opposing POV:
BAF: Failed, as we tried using the LFG queue on the first day it was live. We had 13 people, no tanks. 
Lambda: Success.
Keyes: Failed, as none of us had actually run it before.
UG: Success, but was very close on losing Des.
TPN: Failed.
MoM: Success.
I find your lack of signature disturbing.
Mauk2, nice details thanks. (ps I am using the Elec/Elec/Mu Scrapper you recommended, and loving it)
Ukaserex, you made a fine point about how thier business model is we should be play testing. And most of us (I do) probably feel a little guilty about not heading to Beta. Hyperstrike made an excellent rebuttal that they may not listen.
Look, this is not my first trip around the merry-go-round. I have worked in big corporations (more than one). I have worked in design oriented team corporations. I have worked with groups trying to do massive art projects. The bigger the project, and the more work that is done on it before it gets to the feedback stage (Beta) the less likely that the design group is gonna give a frog's fart how bad the feedback is. They are gonna put a happy face on it, quote someone "well, everybody likes something different" check it off their project list, and (maybe) make a mental note to do something different next time.
Do I really want to hop on Beta? lets see. I get to be one of the first to do the trials. Thats means that I will have like 12 failure runs right off the bat, because there are never any clues in this game about how to do the trials or the failure parameters. Once I learn the trial I can play it through on numerous characters and develop a sense of it. Then I can post to the feedback forum along with a few really good gamers (Arcana and that crew, sheesh) and about a zillion opinionated and not necessarily as talented gamers. Then the Devs (may/may not) even look at the feedback I posted. Oh, and for all this work what do I get? *crickets. Or duriing the time everyone is flocking to Beta I could be getting badges, running 50 content for A merits, chances for purple drops, and doing trials to get more rewards in the hope that some year they will open another incarnate ability (and that it will not require yet another form of in game currency. Yes, in fact I am still irritated about the 3 months worth of useless shards I built up....)
Okay, off soapbox again.
Guess my rant is not completely done.
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Make the necessary notes available as a drop down (like with mission contact mission dialogue) so gamers can just click and read while in game. I mean, throw us a danged bone.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
What's that, you don't read the patch notes? Well whose fault is that?
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Hmmm let's see if I can recall:|
Originally Posted by Frost Warden
My first-of record, just for an opposing POV:
BAF: Failed, as we tried using the LFG queue on the first day it was live. We had 13 people, no tanks. Lambda: Success. Keyes: Failed, as none of us had actually run it before. UG: Success, but was very close on losing Des. TPN: Failed. MoM: Success. |
BAF/LAM: Success but as you mentioned on both I had a leader that had done them on Beta
Keyes: Failed miserably .. no one alonmg that had done it previously
UG: Successful.. almost failed at the Lichen WarWalker but made it through.. we did have players along with experience
MOM: Failed but after we experimented 3 times we succeeded and have been running it nightly (with no failures) since
TPN: Failed but again after a couple test runs we came up with the right strategy and simply ignore the telepaths and Maelstrom outside and rush from building to building until with get our PO victories.
Of all the trials I'd say my favorite is the Underground. Yes I know its the longest but I enjoy the challenge and the rewards are better than any other .. 10 Astral, 2 Emps, better than 60 threads and a minimum of a RARE bit of salvage. Compare that to the Keyes. 3-4 astrals, 2 emps, a few threads and more often than not I wind up with a common or uncommon. And I get to endure frequent periods where I am flailing helplessly in mid air or trying to avoid an obliteration beam during the final battle. The Lambda is a close second to Keyes for least favorite.. Eve with all 3 level shifts my squishier characters can still get squashed during the glowie phase and these days teams seem to split up and do whatever they like inside .. instead of STAYING together to proetct one another. The rewards suck 3 astral, 1 emp a couple threads and just like Keyes more often than not very low level salvage.
The TPN and BAF are great for farming... good rewards and unless the TPN bug bites very limited chance of failure
I personally enjoy MoM... the nightmare battles a make phase one interesting along with trying to avoid the pink stuff. The battle with Penny is epic and the final battle with Maliase/Tillman is fun.
I run with a group that nightly does the following: Keyes>TPN>MoM>UG and then MAYBE we add a BAF and LAM. We have a core group that actually has it's own private chat channel now and then we open it up to anyone else interested to fill. Our strategies are sound so unless the PUG players just completely ignore instructions we always win.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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Already in game. Click the question mark on the trial window for more information on the current task.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Make the necessary notes available as a drop down (like with mission contact mission dialogue) so gamers can just click and read while in game. I mean, throw us a danged bone.
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You're welcome.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
First off, I'd like to acknowledge that this thread probably belongs in the City Life section of the forums, and perhaps the admins will see fit to move it there at some point. In the mean time...
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Agreed. But when "lower" hits the depths of first-run iTrials, then something is definitely wrong in my view. I certainly see the value in making iTrials more challenging than the regular content, but they are so different in the degree to which they conceal critical information and resort to gimmicks, that the disconnect is too jarring (and first-time success rates, as compared to regular content, seem to bear this out). The iTrials shouldn't make players feel like they've logged into a different MMO, but that's sort of what it feels like in many ways.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
And none of the above changes the face that if you go into something not knowing what to do or having never run it before, your chances of success will be lower. There is nothing wrong with this.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
First time success rate highly depends on how well a player can adapt to new situations, how self directed a player can be in figuring things out, and how good the leadership in the trial is. That said, for first runs low single digit percent success rate is a gross exaggeration.
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For instance, if you don't know about the Avatar of Hamidon's mag 50 Confuse before going in, you will almost certainly fail, and there is nothing in the trial itself that even warns you about it (as though the story writers decided that the dramatic benefits of keeping the "Big Bad" a Big Secret was more important than giving players a reasonable chance to succeed without complete foreknowledge). I've yet to see a league succeed which did not plan for that ahead of time. In fact, UG is widely regarded as an utter waste of time if there aren't three or four players armed with t3 or t4 Clarion. Prior to the UGT, I bet Clarion was an infrequently chosen Destiny power, and so leagues were ill-equipped to deal with the Avatar. After running it a few times, the equation became very clear: have (sufficient) Clarion or expect to lose.
I know the devs don't let us in on the results of their data mining, but the way I hear the iTrials described around here, combined with my own experience of TPN and MoM when they first showed up (I was lucky and missed out on Keyes 1.0, but I know the general feelings towards it), leads me to feel that single-digit success rates for first runs would not be even a little bit surprising.
I mean, I still end up on leagues every now and then that fail BAF and Lambda even though most players know exactly what to do by now. The fact that it only takes a few clueless players, insufficiently briefed on what to do, to fail even the "simple" trials says a lot about what to expect from a league that is doing a new trial for the very first time and knows nothing about its tricks and gimmicks (yet).
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I'm going to take a wild guess that you've never played any other MMOs. People instawinning their first time through just doesn't happen outside of city of heroes. We actually have it very easy here. In other games groups of people can spend months on new content before they actually complete it. And you know how people progress through it? Trial and failure. Trial and failure for weeks on end slowly progressing through with the same group of people. Here we can expect to complete trials on the day they come out with any group of players and any different group of players on the next run.
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NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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And you've given me another good example. Why did I not know this? How is it similar to anything I have done in this game before? It's not. If you socialize your paying customers to expect X for years and then give them Y do not expect them to throw roses at you. You might get something thrown, but it won't smell like roses.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Already in game. Click the question mark on the trial window for more information on the current task.
You're welcome. |
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Because the Options menu is filled with them also, and I think they appear elsewhere but I can't think of any specific examples.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
And you've given me another good example. Why did I not know this? How is it similar to anything I have done in this game before?
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Next?
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Now I'm wondering if we are even talking about the same thing. I'm talking about how from level 1-50 if you are on a mission and want a hint if it's a kill all or a rescue. etc. you can click on the M "map menu" "contacts" mission and scroll through some text to see what you are doing and why. (which is useful about 85% of the time) |
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Because the Options menu is filled with them also, and I think they appear elsewhere but I can't think of any specific examples.
Next? |
I was suggesting they give more explicit instructions, I don't know, something like every really organized league leader I have followed gives on the Keyes, CoP, etc. Only you click on it from the GUI for CoH in a easy to find place. (and wouldnt it be nice if this started at 1st level for every mission so we get accustomed to it.)
Or maybe they like the Trials having completely different rules than the game from 1-50. Patches of death, unavoidable damage, League wide holds, strategic goals it is impossible to know. I mean, look how well changing everything about the game without letting the players in on it went over in PvP. Just seems natural they would import that same "magical thinking" into level 50+ content and the new direction for the game for the next couple years.
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I think some of it stems from the fact that the developers want the players to figure out their own strategy. They can give a more detailed explaination of the mission goal is, but not how specifically to do it. I remember, I think when they revamped hamidon, how the developers were talking about how they had no idea how the playerbase would go about completing it and they were curious to see how they would. I'm sure it's the same for all content. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I was suggesting they give more explicit instructions, I don't know, something like every really organized league leader I have followed gives on the Keyes, CoP, etc. Only you click on it from the GUI for CoH in a easy to find place. (and wouldnt it be nice if this started at 1st level for every mission so we get accustomed to it.)
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| Or maybe they like the Trials having completely different rules than the game from 1-50. Patches of death, unavoidable damage, League wide holds, strategic goals it is impossible to know. I mean, look how well changing everything about the game without letting the players in on it went over in PvP. Just seems natural they would import that same "magical thinking" into level 50+ content and the new direction for the game for the next couple years. |
Pre-EDIT: Honestly if you're not even going to read my posts maybe I just won't bother.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Last I checked, they are making a lot of changes based on player feedback. Darkness Assault, Darkness Control, Staff sounds... they even gave us some choices regarding some powers|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
The thing is, you're assuming that the devs would have actually listened to the feedback and acted upon it in a manner that would directly address your issues with the thing being tested.
Talk to the people giving feedback about the current drop rates in DA. Right now it's a gigantic shell game for not a lot of reward. |
Unless the problem is that they are not doing what you want them to do
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I understood what Hyperstrike's response and this was my take on it. Yes, we do understand that the Devs use the player base as unpaid glitch checkers. Yes, we do understand that over the years the Devs have started to take those glitch checkers advice on power levels of sets, animations, etc. No, we do not believe ALL of the glitch checkers opinions combined could stop the Devs from rolling out something that has been in the works for a year or more. (Design to Implementation) Take for instance the TPN. Every glitch checker that existed could have railed on this in playtesting. (unlike me some appear to actually enjoy this thing though) Would not matter. The TPN had been in the works for a long time, and that sucker was gonna roll out. There is no "back up" plan for stuff like this. This suit of clothes is gonna be on the rack. The Devs will take advice if a button needs to be changed, or one sleeve is twice as long as the other, but that sucker is going out the door.|
Originally Posted by Erhnam
Last I checked, they are making a lot of changes based on player feedback. Darkness Assault, Darkness Control, Staff sounds... they even gave us some choices regarding some powers
Unless the problem is that they are not doing what you want them to do |
So, I think Hyperstrike was making more than just a "The Devs don't make every change I ask for" post. I could be wrong.
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Ach, I feel guilty Dark Gob. I normally post from computers that I cannot game on. (Still trying for my own office with a couple comps but that day is some time off.) So, I was having problems. I kind of understood what you were saying, but I have never done it in-game. Last night was one of the few nights I have with my wife. We even gamed in the cities a bit (She's a new Premium!) but I did not try the stuff you suggested. I never get any of my project work done on our duo nights. I will print out your stuff and try it tonight.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Pre-EDIT: Honestly if you're not even going to read my posts maybe I just won't bother.
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But what I was trying to get at in my responses is that it is really hard to understand some mission objectives. I have soloed Redside multiple times. I am talking all content, every contact, every side mission on one character. I currently have a Blueside project (slightly stalled at 34) where I am doing the same thing. I try to "speed" as much as I can. But it can be difficult when the mission notes/adjectives seem to indicate a glowie/boss fight, and it's a kill all. I will look at the mission parameter stuff you say exists for the trials in-game. I am extremely curious. First, thank you for pointing out they exist. I am always learning new things. Second, I am highly skeptical they will bring a good understanding of how to accomplish a trial. I suspect they are written very similarly to the mission objective text. A lotta fluff and possibly a little useful info.
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I enjoy a challenging game. We all have our "I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home" video game stories. I'm not gonna bore you with mine. But I have done long days accomplishing crazy stuff. |
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I think some of it stems from the fact that the developers want the players to figure out their own strategy. They can give a more detailed explaination of the mission goal is, but not how specifically to do it. I remember, I think when they revamped hamidon, how the developers were talking about how they had no idea how the playerbase would go about completing it and they were curious to see how they would. I'm sure it's the same for all content.
A large part of this is all the lvl 50+ content is NEW content, and much of the 1-50 content is content that is the same as it has been from when the game was released. The game engine back then couldn't support much of what they're doing today. If they remade this game today I can assure you much of what they are doing today would be spread more evenly accross the game in all levels. They are already starting to do this, with new posi, dfb, and the new bloody bad trial coming out giving more unique missions with unique enemies and goals. It's not magical thinking, it's just because it's newer. |
It is just that the Trials are a completely different game than content 1-50. Not bad. Just completely different. As in, a completely different game. As in, not the game I have been playing for 4 1/2 years. I am cool with change, I am cool with challenge. But this is a bit shocking. I am still shocked a year into it.
Look, all I am saying is you have to bridge the change. The game has been sold as a Honda Accord drive on a scenic highways for years. Hit 50 and do a trial and you are driving a Formula 1 over pits of death like in a Speed Racer cartoon. It is jarring, and the Devs are not doing themselves any favor thinking all their paying customers "will just get it."
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Well, personally, all those activities you mention are exactly why I don't really want to log onto the Beta server. I could get a zillion purple recipe drops, and they'd be worthless. It all seems counter-productive to me. We cannot serve two masters, figuratively speaking. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Mauk2, nice details thanks. (ps I am using the Elec/Elec/Mu Scrapper you recommended, and loving it)
Ukaserex, you made a fine point about how thier business model is we should be play testing. And most of us (I do) probably feel a little guilty about not heading to Beta. Hyperstrike made an excellent rebuttal that they may not listen. Look, this is not my first trip around the merry-go-round. I have worked in big corporations (more than one). I have worked in design oriented team corporations. I have worked with groups trying to do massive art projects. The bigger the project, and the more work that is done on it before it gets to the feedback stage (Beta) the less likely that the design group is gonna give a frog's fart how bad the feedback is. They are gonna put a happy face on it, quote someone "well, everybody likes something different" check it off their project list, and (maybe) make a mental note to do something different next time. Do I really want to hop on Beta? lets see. I get to be one of the first to do the trials. Thats means that I will have like 12 failure runs right off the bat, because there are never any clues in this game about how to do the trials or the failure parameters. Once I learn the trial I can play it through on numerous characters and develop a sense of it. Then I can post to the feedback forum along with a few really good gamers (Arcana and that crew, sheesh) and about a zillion opinionated and not necessarily as talented gamers. Then the Devs (may/may not) even look at the feedback I posted. Oh, and for all this work what do I get? *crickets. Or duriing the time everyone is flocking to Beta I could be getting badges, running 50 content for A merits, chances for purple drops, and doing trials to get more rewards in the hope that some year they will open another incarnate ability (and that it will not require yet another form of in game currency. Yes, in fact I am still irritated about the 3 months worth of useless shards I built up....) Okay, off soapbox again. |
I do maintain, however, that the players in trials have a responsibility to
1. Be willing to switch to another character
2. "know thy foe" - as was mentioned earlier - the player should read the guides to at least have a rough idea of what to expect.
3. Bring appropriate shifted toons to the appropriate trials.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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The thing is, I do not need to run through any normal mission once or twice in order to learn the "tricks" necessary for completing it successfully. Most TFs don't require it either. All the other content in the game can be won or lost, in my experience, entirely on the basis of the competence of the players involved. Not so for the iTrials. The idea that players are expected to come up with effective strategies only after they've experienced the content and (likely) failed it once or twice is a game paradigm I find unappealing.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I think some of it stems from the fact that the developers want the players to figure out their own strategy. They can give a more detailed explaination of the mission goal is, but not how specifically to do it. I remember, I think when they revamped hamidon, how the developers were talking about how they had no idea how the playerbase would go about completing it and they were curious to see how they would. I'm sure it's the same for all content.
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Like I've said before, it is one thing to come up with a reasonable plan and then fail to execute it well. It is something else entirely when you can't even formulate a proper plan because you don't know half of the gimmicks you will be facing. Not being given the proper information/tools to formulate workable plans is unfairly stacking the deck against the players for no good reason. My recommendation for making content more challenging without handicapping the players with incomplete information is to make the enemies fight smarter, or in unexpected combinations. Make the situations unusual and the enemies a little unpredictable. But for crying out loud, don't rewrite the rules of the bloody game.
This is like everyone becoming highly rated chess masters and then, entering tournaments against computer opponents in which the rules are randomly changed, but you aren't told what rules are changed or how they are changed. You are merely made to witness new moves made by the computer and told that moves you used to be able to make are now prohibited. No opportunities are given to study the new rules ahead of time or develop new tactics for them; you will just have to lose several games, hopefully figure out what went wrong, and try again next time. That might sound like fun to some people, but I bet 99% of ELO rated chess masters would find it a complete waste of their time.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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LRSF: Unless your team can somehow manage to pull off zerg-rushing the Phalanx, you're going to need to employ some manner of specialized tactics in order to succeed, and it took people a while to figure out what the best tactics were.|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
The thing is, I do not need to run through any normal mission once or twice in order to learn the "tricks" necessary for completing it successfully. Most TFs don't require it either.
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STF: Same issue with Recluse's Inner Circle, and dealing with Recluse and his towers.
ITF: The final battle with Romulus used to wreak havoc on teams after this TF came out, thanks in no small part to the healing Nictus.
5TF: This may count as an exception rather than a rule just because it was designed to require specific tactics, but it's certainly not a new thing.
Hamidon Raid: Your league has no chance if you don't handle the raid properly. This content has been in the game forever and people still manage to screw it up.
RWZ Raid: Same scenario.
Abandoned Sewers Trial: More tactics, you have to coordinate taking out the FFGs very carefully.
Cathedral of Pain: Same as the AST, coordinating the Resonators and Willforges (inside and out) can be very difficult, and you're given the same trial information window here as you are with Incarnate trials.
How many of these tricks did people know in advance when the content came out? How many first runs of these TFs/trials failed miserably because nobody knew what to do? How long did it take before people stopped calling them completely unfair? And did any of these tasks get a full guide released in the patch notes?
The game has always operated like this, the only difference is that the devs have stepped it up a level or two (or three).
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Overall, I agree with these points. I've have to point out though, that there will be some people who only have 1 or 2 incarnates at all. It really depends on:|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
I do maintain, however, that the players in trials have a responsibility to
1. Be willing to switch to another character 2. "know thy foe" - as was mentioned earlier - the player should read the guides to at least have a rough idea of what to expect. 3. Bring appropriate shifted toons to the appropriate trials. |
1. How much playing time the player has
2. Their priority on playing trials or playing alts
I have 2 characters that are 50+3; after that, I only have characters with alpha slots filled. I probably could focus on them getting them vs. leveling alts; just never seems a priority to me. (Kinda gotta burnt on trials, but starting to venture back.)
I find your lack of signature disturbing.
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I think the main difference is that in most cases, the old TFs and trials were designed with strategies in mind, and the more recent ones in a lot of cases seem more designed simply to "beat" the players. There are exceptions I could probably name in both cases, but that's the way the trend looks to me.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
The game has always operated like this, the only difference is that the devs have stepped it up a level or two (or three).
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I like the direction of the conversation. A lot of thoughtful stuff.
I think it is a shame that the incarnate content does seem to always be resorting to "tricks" to win against the teams. It would have been nice if they could have included something like "but if you have a Tank go to this spot and grab X they will be able to do Y and save the day." Or really anything that takes advantage of the "special" feeling of being a super that the game has offered for years. The problem with these trials is we may as well all be marines storming a beach. Half of us are just trying to survive, the other half trying to do something effective so that it will end. Everything about the Incarnate Trials completely levels archtype abilities. My Scrapper is by far a more powerful Blaster than any Blaster I have made at 50+ level. This is because Blasters are designed as Blappers, and since they are designed to function NOT at range (for most secondary abilities/buffs/some primary). therefore my Scrapper who is softcap to S/L and has about 45% res avg to everything (and a heal in secondary) and does nearly as much ranged AoE damage, can actually go toe to toe with WarWalkers for endless periods of time without eating insp. I bring it up as another example of how the Trials change everything we "know" about the game and have been socialized by the game to expect from 1-50 content. At level 50+ they stand it all on it's head and go "SURPRISE!" Tanks are one shotted by pink patches. Oh, mr tough guy, on the ground again? Yeah, hilarious. Also an almost incomprehensible business decision.
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I think it's difficult to draw a clear line between content designed "to beat the players" vs content that is simply harder. There are multiple ways to make it harder. One way is just 'more of the same' - this gives us Reichsman with 227,000 hit points and an attack that stuns tanks.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
I think the main difference is that in most cases, the old TFs and trials were designed with strategies in mind, and the more recent ones in a lot of cases seem more designed simply to "beat" the players. There are exceptions I could probably name in both cases, but that's the way the trend looks to me.
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Another way is puzzles; specific steps to solve a problem. An example is defeating the monsters in Mother Mayhem's path to slow her movement and make her less resistant to mez in the MoM trial. The downside of puzzles - well, ONE downside - is that plenty of people will immediately, scornfully, label them as "gimmicks" and regard them as inherently bad. Of course, another downside to puzzles is that the encounter goes from seemingly impossible to easy once enough people know the 'trick' (and are coordinated enough to act on the knowledge).
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
TPN was on beta before it went live. So was MoM, and every other incarnate trial. If you are VIP, then you have access to the Beta server and could tell the devs before it went live that it was lousy. Believe me - I am not standing on some pedestal. I'm kicking myself for not using the Beta server when I had the chance. There are several problems with TPN, and to a lesser degree, MoM and UGT. (They are my own issues with the trial, not including the kick bug of tpn)
TPN has been out for some time now. It is incumbent upon every player to not only experience the content before it goes live, but to read the guides on the trial before you go. Why? Because the trials are not straightforward. They have mechanics that we haven't seen in game before. There is no way to know to pull voids to Penelope Yin unless someone tells you. (If there is, it's so vague or nebulous, I've never seen it)
I mean this half sincerely, and half sarcastically, mind you. If you've done any kind of a search on TPN, you'd have read how some folks get kicked out for some unknown reason. You already know it's a snooze fest from the player commentary. I applaud the OP and everyone else for giving it a try or three.
Myself, I don't enjoy it much. I'll do the trial with some friends if they want, but left alone, I'd rather do MoM or UGT. Those trials may require a good bit of instruction until the players get the gist of it, but once they do, they are simple and fun.
So, put my vote on TPN needs some revision.
Talk to the people giving feedback about the current drop rates in DA. Right now it's a gigantic shell game for not a lot of reward.
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