TPN massive fail

There it is. I was trying to put my finger on it and could not.

In making these Trials dependent on these shortcut "tricks" the Devs are robbing two groups of people.
First, people who are new to trials, or do them only rarely. Maybe only ITrial one character, or a few part way Incarnated. These players will usually struggle at every new trial and wonder what they are doing wrong.
Second, dedicated 50th content Playas. After a few (okay for me lots of trial, but for clever vet 50s a few) trials these folks band together with other smart players and beat the crap outta the trials. They can practically predict where the patches of doom will spawn in their sleep. The hardest part for them is getting their team together. You'll see them broadcasting. "Need 5 +3 for MoM prefer control" and it's cake. A challenge? Yeah, if you call recruiting a quality team a challenge.
Third, I know I said 2 but I thought of a bonus. Peeps like me. Completely robbed. I look at a Trial. I see/know how it's supposed to run. But I am on later than most of my friends, or on a slow server. You make as good a league as you can, but it's not quite "all that". Some folks don't read the 10 min of instructions you post. Others stand around doing nothing. One stays in the hospital. (Possibly catatonic after being obliterated in 1 sec?) You know how the thing is supposed to flow and.....it.....slowly.................fails....... .......................miserably.

There's kind of a significant precedent for this, though. The original hami raid was put in with no clue whatsoever from the devs as to how teams were "supposed" to do it, and zillions of the raids failed before people finally came up with the healing-umbrella strategy. (After, of course, a few entirely-unexpected "loophole" strategies that the devs subsequently altered things to make impossible. I gather that we never did end up doing it the way the devs had expected us to do it.)

And that was the game's first try at endgame content.

So it seems pretty clear that having iTrials work the same way is consistent with the developers' past expectations for endgame content. These are the pinnacle of our heroic (or villainous) achievements. They're supposed to be hard.

You are correct. The devs did eventually explain the tactic they had envisioned. I don't remember the details, as I got them second-hand, but it involved something like splitting into one team that drew all the fire (and the blooms) to one side and a ranged team that attacked Hami from the opposite side. I may be misremembering the specifics, but I recall that it sounded slow and fragile.

Edit: I will note that the folks I regularly play with and I did actually figure out the most important mechanics required to succeed at the MoM trial based on hints taken from the mission window indicators. "Hm, the number of voids present is important. I wonder why?" We failed our first trial at Penelope, then succeeded the trial completely on our second attempt. As it turns out, we still didn't understand everything (it was literally weeks later that I figured out that popping a void created a "safe zone"), but we pulled it off regardless.

The Incarnate content is supposed to be different in exactly this kind of way. It's supposed to be more challenging with higher requirements on preparation and understanding than most of what has preceded it. That was made clear at its inception. While some players may not like that, it is not inherently bad, it is simply different, and it is different by conscious decision. There was a segment of the player base requesting content in this vein.

Note that I do not think all of the implementation specifics are successful. I have written a guide on how to overcome the War Walkers in the Underground Trial, and using those tactics can make success against them easy. However, I think it was unreasonable to expect anyone to figure out the key mechanics I discovered before writing that trial by actually playing the trial. *I* learned them from perusing external resources on power mechanics that happened to document critter powers. I think that's a bit too far down the road of "let players figure it out" - without such resources, I question whether anyone ever actually would have.

TPN is relatively easy, but easy =/= quality - but once on a league which is well guided, it's not difficult.

However, it is unimaginative and got some nasty cheat mechanics - well you probably know my opinion on some of it but in terms of story it's pretty dreadful and comes way down in terms of quality compared to some of the other trials.

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

Like I said before, none of the storytelling in City of Heroes is particularly unique, imaginative or even good, so I don't know why you'd have issues with this one particular instance.

And really, Lambda and BAF have better stories than TPN, really? They barely even have stories, there's a little set-up and that's it, at least TPN has actual plot progression within the trial.

TPN has "nasty cheat mechanics"... wut?

The mechanics in TPN are actually very well defined, especially when you compare them to similar mechanics in UGT which are very poorly defined.

Ach. Really? Wow. My global is Snarky and I bow before this statement. None of the writing is good? Ghost Widow's story and dozens of others are incredibly good. The entire Ouroboros metaplot, and Nemesis is/is not behind everything. Seriously. Back off just a tad on that?

Okay, well, I may be in the minority here but I consider the Hamidon Raid the game's first case in which the devs completely missed the boat on how to construct "end game" content for a superhero game. Virtually nothing about the Hamidon Raid, or its mechanics, looks or feels like a superhero story to me (yes, there are stories where nearly an entire pantheon of heroes bands together to face a cosmic threat, but that basic premise is where the similarities end as far as I'm concerned). It is perhaps the least appealing template for post-50 play I can imagine.

Except that I feel that neither preparation or understanding are available to players going into the iTrials for the first time. The requirements aren't simply higher, they are insurmountable due to lack of information. The only way to get the information critical to succeeding is to go through the trials and see what happens, see what the gimmicks are, and run them multiple times in a series of experiments to see what will actually work. I've never read a superhero comic book where this was the primary narrative paradigm for superheroes deep into their careers.

If this is how the content is supposed to be, then it is a failure of design intent as well as execution, IMO. That makes it difficult for me to get excited about future iTrials. But I'll do them anyway because I want to unlock any new Incarnate slots while I'm still young(-ish). I just wish they weren't designed to make me (or my character) look and feel like a failure.

You might find this post of mine helpful in setting the background for a question I want to ask.

Given the theory that all the real challenge in this game is "scripted" challenge, and that the challenge tends to disappear or at least diminish greatly once we figure out the script, what sort of challenge would there be if they explained everything (the script) up front?

Trust me, I think there are things they could do better, but if there's zero player discovery involved, there's really nothing left.

I saw someone interpret that as basically Maelstrom's version of Vorpal Judgment. I'm sure that all the countless Nemesis, Carnie, and Longbow mobs I've taken out with Vorpal Judgment feel the same way; that it's a "cheap" one-shot power (that makes my melee character look like a ranged wunderkind). *shrug*

What I think is worse is Anti-Matter's ability to "stop time". There is no preventing it and no defense against it. It happens, three times, with 100% certainty and it works against all characters, no matter what. That is what I call a "cheat" mechanic. Hell, he isn't even really stopping time, he is just paralyzing everyone; everything else in the scenario continues to function (the Oblit Beam, his regen, the trial countdown timer, etc.).

NPCs don't have a sense of fairness. If and game dev (in any game) fails to see that, and thinks it's fair game to have the players treated the way we treat the NPCs, that is a major game design fail.

Players never enjoy having something done to them which they don't feel they can avoid or control. If it happens often, and if the consequence is defeat, they enjoy it less and less.

That's partially incorrect. He does not regen during time stop. Keyes Antimatter has zero inherent regen. He only heals from Disintegration and from the terminals, and when he goes to a terminal station, the time stop ends. It's true Obliteration still happens, and people have asked for that not to be the case pretty much since the start. Honestly, I'm not sure if they actually are able to prevent it with the current game engine.

By constructing each iTrial as a series of scripted "scenes" that start the same way no matter what the league is composed of or what it does, and which follow a predictable pattern, the devs give us a puzzle that is only challenging until it has been solved and then, like a murder mystery, isn't really interesting anymore. Moreover, a puzzle isn't a challenge if all the tricks to solving it are laid out ahead of time, and so players can't be given a whole lot of up-front information lest it make the puzzle too easy to solve. The mistake, I think, is in having made the iTrials into glorified puzzles rather than dynamic tactical problems.

In many cases, letting players know what to expect doesn't really undermine the challenge factor much at all. For example, knowing about sequestering ahead of time doesn't make it any less potent a weapon. In fact, relying on people not knowing what it is in order to essentially trick them into causing irresistable group holds is weak design. As a tool to reduce dps (forcing melee characters to disengage momentarily) is a neat idea all by itself; the subterfuge of keeping it a secret is not necessary. Moreover, if there was a way for Defenders to "break" the sequestering rings off a leaguemate, much in the same way that healing stops Anti-Matter's disintegration DoT, there would be the added dimension of giving Defenders one more thing that (potentially) draws their time and energy away from other duties.

I would suggest that making the situations more dynamic and the enemies "smarter" would increase the challenge factor considerably. Doing so would mean that leagues have to win by formulating good plans and thinking on their feet as the dynamic behavior of the mobs and the synergy of their powers demands effective improvisation. But for computer game designers that's hard, whereas it is much easier to just gift AVs with autohit, irresistable powers which are not revealed until encountered, and impossible to defend against when they are.

To my mind, the "story" of a trial shouldn't be what is pre-scripted, but should instead be the result of what happened. Give us a premise, a set of starting conditions, clever enemies with (mostly) known abilities (but somewhat unpredictable behaviors), and difficult objectives and let us figure out how to beat it through solid tactical play. Don't put Lambda on rails; don't make the showdown with Marauder always come as a final "phase" that always occurs in the courtyard and always under same conditions. Don't make Keyes a series of three nearly identical dances with the same steps, capped off with a final phase showdown that plays out the same way almost without exception. Make all three reactors simultaneous targets/objectives, and make Anti-Matter present nearly the whole time, causing problems and requiring leagues to formulate methods of containing him until the reactors can be shut down.

I can't help but think that one could refactor the iTrial experience so that the same overall "story" is being told by each one, but with mechanics and enemy behaviors designed to provide challenges without having to turn them into glorified puzzles that can only be solved after having failed them first and having feretted out the necessary tricks along the way. I'd much rather fail a trial because of poor execution of a solid plan (or perfect execution of a flawed plan) than because it was designed to be an information-for-failure exchange program.

I agree completely. I'm just not sure if Maelstrom's Vorpal Judgment falls under this category. I mean, AVs are routinely given powers that no player character can ever obtain; how fair is that? At least in the case of Vorpal Judgment (if I can be permitted to continue to refer to it as such), there is a to-hit chance and normal (smashing?) resistance mitigates its damage, right? Or is Maelstrom's tele-kick autohit and autokill?

When an enemy is given the same powers I have, I don't usually feel too put off by it. I figure I should be willing to take whatever I can dish out...

Really? Hmm. What is he doing while we're all just being held then? I thought he flies over to one of the regen stations and starts regenerating; if he was just stuck in time not doing anything either what would be the point of him using such a power?

It doesn't bother me.

It can miss, but it is unlikely to unless you have very high defense. Even at the incarnate softcap and no debuffs present from Seers (not a trivial combination of factors to operate under in the trial for the vast majority of characters), he's going to have over a 10% chance to hit.

Let me know next time you get to fire Vorpal Judgement multiple times in several seconds, from out of visible range, for 1500-2000 points of damage per blow. He does not have Vorpal Judgement. Vorpal Judgement was inspired by what he can do, which is significantly better. I have no problem with AVs and the like being given very strong powers, because they're designed to be faced by teams or leagues. How he is specifically using these powers is rather more individual, and it's not being done in a normal fight. He's picking off people who are moving from door to door.

I can't tell if you're being ridiculously obtuse or asking an honest question. I told you what part of what you said was incorrect. Why are you talking about something else? It's not relevant to what I said.

There's a simple reason for that. The game engine doesn't support it, and it's not trivial to add.

You said Anti-Matter doesn't regenerate while everyone is held by his "stopping time", which leads me to wonder what the point of it is then. I'm asking an honest question. The paragonwiki says this:

At 80%, 50% and 20% health, Anti-Matter will freeze time momentarily while he approaches one of his regeneration stations.

When you say he doesn't regenerate while time is "stopped", then I must infer that he is able to fly over and reach the regeneration station but then the actual health recovery doesn't begin until the hold is released. Is that right? I guess I always assumed that the regen process started even while we were all held, but if that's not the case, then the only thing stopping time does is allow him to get to the regen station without harrassment. That seems silly since he is able to fly wherever he wants whenever he wants anyway, so why would he bother to hold everyone in place for the trivial purpose of simply flying over to a regeneration station?

I'm not questioning the fact of what you are saying, I'm trying to understand the logic behind the power in light of what you are saying.

That's correct. He does not begin regenerating (healing, actually) until he stops over the stations. The time stop serves primarily serves only to keep us from attacking him while he goes from wherever he started at to the current station. (Note that, originally, someone who died from Disintegration during time stop healed Antimatter. That was changed - while they may still die, that death no longer heals AM.)

This inability to act while he is moving might serve a legitimate tactical purpose on the third station, as it's possible he could be defeated before he even got to it if a league had high enough effective DPS. I suspect, though, that it's mostly there for flavor, to impress on us just how powerful he is supposed to be. And if that in itself annoys you, you wouldn't be alone.

I actually don't have much problem with "gimmick" powers in the hands of AVs and such. Despite that, I do dislike the degree to which they are used in the final fight in Keyes. I don't find Keyes hard, and didn't find it even before they changed it (though I did find it tedious), I just don't like how the final fight is dominated by Antimatter's gimmicks. We have lots of examples in other trials where the gimmicks add flavor and even challenge to the fights without completely dominating them. In Keyes, it almost rises to the point that Antimatter himself represents almost no challenge at all - it's almost all about the gimmicks.

If you think this is somehow something new, where have you been for the last six years? :P CoH has always had really lousy documentation support for all aspects of the game, at least until people created ParagonWiki and started documenting everything themselves. (Remember how long Statesman held out before finally giving in and revealing the actual numbers behind the mechanics?)

I think the game is still a bit obfuscated and newbie-unfriendly in general, and given that nobody's going to encounter the iTrials until they've leveled at least one toon to 50 I think there are a lot of other things affecting far more players that have room for improvement first.

On the other hand, it was a major plot point of The Greatest American Hero.

It's not even written as well as most comic books, frankly. (Well, maybe more than most these days, but that's no great accomplishment.) The stories are hokey and obvious. Most of the time character motivations don't actually make sense in any reality that I'm aware of. A good 90% of the characters are Mary Sues with personalities so thin they make a paper bag look complex and sophisticated.

None of this actually matters to me though. I don't play to read. I play to play. A story that isn't completely moronic is really all I require (I do have some standards).

Okay, you make a fair point. But I stand by the statement that some of the stories are very nice. What is more you can see the writing improve. Literally. I am currently soloing all Blueside content, every arc, etc. Yeah, hokey points double awarded. I have soloed Redside content a few times (take 1 character, do every story, etc). Redside is better than Blueside, for writing. Still some Hokey. I have soloed Praetoria a few times, every contact I could, getting those special badges for alignment stuff. Hey, the writing is better. The re-write of the Positron TF. Look at that, are they moving in the right direction? Yes! The content that is coming out now, in general better writing. In fact, that is why I started this thread.

TPN looks like it was put out by the original writers of Blueside after a weekend of hard drinking. They come in Monday morning. "Project is due tomorrow"
"Oh gawd"
"Wait, I got this"
"You got this, wtf, we are sunk"
"No look, we take some of the cheat mechanics from all the trial. Ya know, how about we just kill everyones defense everywhere in the trial. One quick code, and the thing is hard."
"er, okay, but we got no story"
"uh, remember Max headroom?"
"What, oh my head." slumps on desk
"Okay what we do is we have them save the Max Headroom guy from praetoria."
"That was in last weeks meeting. How are we gonna get this out today"
"We just have them run from one bldg to another fighting mobs in each bldg in front of a TV, and periodically fight an AV."
"Thats dumb"
"But I'm half done coding it!"
"Huh, i'm going to find some aspirin."


And that is the story behind the TPN.

Well, I missed about three years in between the introduction of AE and Freedom. On my first tour of duty I had only ever been through the regular content and the classic TFs. The Hamidon Raid did not sound at all appealing to me, so I never ran it. If the Hami Raid is the template then you're right, the iTrials aren't anything "new" with regards to their puzzle-like approach, but I figured all those years of development since I stopped playing surely was enough time for them to come up with a better way to design "end game raid" type content. Apparently not.

You mean the tv comedy in which the main character was so incompetent that he probably only leveled once or twice during the show's entire run? Yeah, that's a great model for L50+ Incarnates engaged in a war against arch-villains from an alternate Earth dimension.