The Walking Dead returns...
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-01-25 18:27 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
I think slick-philly and live-action Carl are part of a group that raid small groups of survivors, a half a dozen family units at most in size. The kind that could keep their heads down for a passing walker mob but could handle the random stray walker or two. Larger groups aren't worth the trouble attacking (cost in ammo and men) and the raiders really wouldn't want to go up against a group similar to themselves.
Think of a group of Earls but with a Jersey Shore flair.
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With all the totally unguarded supplies that would be littered across the country-side I think a roaming band of raiders (whatever their size) trying to infiltrate and destroy groups like Rick's for supplies would be an absolute waste of time and effort. This isn't like Mad Max where you have one group guarding the only supply of gas in the desert. If "slick-philly and live-action Carl" want supplies they can go anywhere for them without fighting.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
I think slick-philly and live-action Carl are part of a group that raid small groups of survivors, a half a dozen family units at most in size. The kind that could keep their heads down for a passing walker mob but could handle the random stray walker or two. Larger groups aren't worth the trouble attacking (cost in ammo and men) and the raiders really wouldn't want to go up against a group similar to themselves.
Think of a group of Earls but with a Jersey Shore flair. |
Now it's always possible they might be after something else like live human slaves for sex or labor. But the fact that it's only been a few months since the ZA happened makes something like that highly unlikely. If the setting of this story was like 20 or 30 years after the ZA then I could believe enough time had passed for organized bands of live raiders to be scouring the land to find any last live people to enslave for their attempts to rebuild a power-base. But since it's only been a few months I don't think enough time has passed for any nomadic raiding party to be organized enough to want to do anything but avoid confrontation and just survive.
Basically "slick-philly and live-action Carl" as scouts for a wandering group of slavers from out-of-state makes no sense so soon after the ZA.
But it might make a lot more sense if they turn out to be scouts for an established group of people who already have a permanent base nearby (i.e. the Governer's group). Then even after very short time they might be willing and able to send out scouts to the surrounding areas to see if other people are encamped near their base.
I guess what I'm saying is that if this doesn't turn out to be the introduction to the TV show's version of the Governer's group then it's going to seem highly "coincidental" (read totally contrived) that an organized group of travelling raiders from supposedly up north managed to find themselves all the way down in Georgia right on top of Rick's group in a matter of a few post-ZA months.
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I do find it interesting that Herschel's first statement to Rick and his group upon their arrival at the farm was that there were not enough resources to support Rick's group, which then led to talk by Shane and others to take the farm from Herschel by force.
Ironic that this is exactly what took place with the two men in the bar and Rick was forced to shoot them to prevent.
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I think it was purposefully meant to show us is that this new group is what -any- group would devolve into if you let people like Shane be in charge. I made the point earlier in the season that Shane represents a sort of dark-side version of Rick. Without Rick's sense of humanity and justice all you'd have is the more primitive, amoral mindset of Shane. |
Originally Posted by Suspicious_Pkg
I do find it interesting that Herschel's first statement to Rick and his group upon their arrival at the farm was that there were not enough resources to support Rick's group, which then led to talk by Shane and others to take the farm from Herschel by force.
Ironic that this is exactly what took place with the two men in the bar and Rick was forced to shoot them to prevent. |
Once Hershel accepted and admitted that he had been wrong about the Walkers it united Hershel and Rick with a common bond. It was no longer Rick's group versus Hershel's group - it became Rick AND Hershel against the rest of the world. We see Rick as being something special, a "uniter", as opposed to people like Shane and these outsiders who have adopted a more cutthroat lawless outlook.
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Unfortunately, the show's taken a bit of the fire away from most of the characters, so, with Hershel going into self-pity mode and coming around to Rick and Shane's line of thinking, it takes away from Hershel's motivation to make them leave and the incentive for Rick's group to allow themselves to be kicked off the farm.
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Originally Posted by Suspicious_Pkg
I do find it interesting that Herschel's first statement to Rick and his group upon their arrival at the farm was that there were not enough resources to support Rick's group, which then led to talk by Shane and others to take the farm from Herschel by force.
Ironic that this is exactly what took place with the two men in the bar and Rick was forced to shoot them to prevent. |
- CaptainFoamerang
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I won't debate the "lack of fire" opinion because I think that kind of thing just boils down to an individual viewer's opinion. But what if this new group (two members of which Rick just killed) provide enough of a threat to motivate -everyone- to leave the farm? |
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Unfortunately, the show's taken a bit of the fire away from most of the characters, so, with Hershel going into self-pity mode and coming around to Rick and Shane's line of thinking, it takes away from Hershel's motivation to make them leave and the incentive for Rick's group to allow themselves to be kicked off the farm.
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I don't see how anyone familiar with both the comic and the show could argue that the characters in the show aren't neutered in various ways, but if you're referring to the suggestion I made a few posts ago, then yes I'd prefer they left the farm. Part of the problem with the show, however, is the writers don't seem to know how to keep most of the characters relevant, hence the ham-fisted Lori car crash. And leaving the farm would bring to light the irrelevancy of the show's most popular addition, Daryl, since he's the resident redneck hunter/tracker and the prison is fully stocked. Unless they want to have them wander around Georgia for a few episodes, which I wouldn't put past them, or unless they basically want to have Daryl take Tyrese's place, which, considering they have another black guy just collecting dust, would seem like a waste.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I won't debate the "lack of fire" opinion because I think that kind of thing just boils down to an individual viewer's opinion. But what if this new group (two members of which Rick just killed) provide enough of a threat to motivate -everyone- to leave the farm?
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- CaptainFoamerang
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They've already shown through the previews that the farm gets invaded by walkers. That right there would be enough motivation to get outta there and find some place a lot more secure (like say a prison perhaps? |
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Unfortunately, the show's taken a bit of the fire away from most of the characters, so, with Hershel going into self-pity mode and coming around to Rick and Shane's line of thinking, it takes away from Hershel's motivation to make them leave and the incentive for Rick's group to allow themselves to be kicked off the farm.
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). I say that because barb wire fences are not nearly as much of a deterrent, nor tend to be sturdy enough, to hold off things that feel no pain.
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Was that in the preview that was shown during Comic Book Men? If so, I don't recall that snippet, but it could just be a fake-out, since previews for earlier episodes included the survivors making a big deal about zombie intruders when it was just Daryl and a couple of strays.
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Originally Posted by Dark One
They've already shown through the previews that the farm gets invaded by walkers. That right there would be enough motivation to get outta there and find some place a lot more secure (like say a prison perhaps?
). I say that because barb wire fences are not nearly as much of a deterrent, nor tend to be sturdy enough, to hold off things that feel no pain. |
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
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Not sure when it was, but I seem to remember it being night time and there were at least 3 zombies in frame, iirc. These weren't merely strays, they were up at the house as it was right behind them.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Was that in the preview that was shown during Comic Book Men? If so, I don't recall that snippet, but it could just be a fake-out, since previews for earlier episodes included the survivors making a big deal about zombie intruders when it was just Daryl and a couple of strays.
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I can see how people who are familiar with both the comic and the TV show could like one set of characters over the other.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
I don't see how anyone familiar with both the comic and the show could argue that the characters in the show aren't neutered in various ways, but if you're referring to the suggestion I made a few posts ago, then yes I'd prefer they left the farm. Part of the problem with the show, however, is the writers don't seem to know how to keep most of the characters relevant, hence the ham-fisted Lori car crash. And leaving the farm would bring to light the irrelevancy of the show's most popular addition, Daryl, since he's the resident redneck hunter/tracker and the prison is fully stocked. Unless they want to have them wander around Georgia for a few episodes, which I wouldn't put past them, or unless they basically want to have Daryl take Tyrese's place, which, considering they have another black guy just collecting dust, would seem like a waste.
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But I think the reason the TV show is having a harder time "juggling" its characters and keeping them all relevant is that is doesn't have the luxury of just tossing out a random panel or two and being done with it like the comic book can. The comic can get away with throwing a few words at each character and keeping most of them relevant because the medium practically dictates a very terse and glossed-over handling of events regardless. On the other hand the TV show has the dual-edged sword of being able to provide more detail to the characters so it becomes very obvious when they -don't- use that capability very well via keeping them all busy and relevant story-wise.
Basically it boils down to the differences between what you can do in a comic book versus a TV show. I still firmly believe both media have their own strengths and weaknesses. Sure the TV show has done some fairly off-the-wall things (like the Lori car crash plotline seems to be) but the amount of detail and character development you can get from the TV show blows the all-too-often simplistic and unevenly paced comic away. Sometimes the comic will dwell on trivial stuff for pages and the devote like one panel to game-changing plot developments.
Perhaps if you're too invested with the way one of them works then you may never be able to fully accept the other. *shrugs*
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I disagree that a TV show can't make the rounds by giving characters the equivalent of a panel or two per episode to keep the characterization plates spinning. Lost did it, and its cast was bigger and the story, characters, and relationships were more complex.
- CaptainFoamerang
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I was trying to make the point that a good TV show in general CAN do this.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
I disagree that a TV show can't make the rounds by giving characters the equivalent of a panel or two per episode to keep the characterization plates spinning. Lost did it, and its cast was bigger and the story, characters, and relationships were more complex.
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The debatable point here is whether the Walking Dead TV show in particular is actually living up to that potential.
For the record I can easily see and accept the failures and missteps of the TV show. I'm just not willing to automatically proclaim that the comic was sheer quintessential perfection by comparison - it had plenty of its own problems.
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How is it debatable? |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I was trying to make the point that a good TV show in general CAN do this.
The debatable point here is whether the Walking Dead TV show in particular is actually living up to that potential. For the record I can easily see and accept the failures and missteps of the TV show. I'm just not willing to automatically proclaim that the comic was sheer quintessential perfection by comparison - it had plenty of its own problems. |
And no one's saying the comic is perfect by comparison, just better.
- CaptainFoamerang
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Eh, most people here are pretty quick to make the blanket implication that "the comic did it this way so that necessarily means what the TV show did was bad". Again I think each of of them have their own strengths and weaknesses.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
How is it debatable?
And no one's saying the comic is perfect by comparison, just better. |
I suppose I just have a hard time glossing the strengths of the TV show by saying the comic was "better" the same way that I'm not willing to gloss over the shortcomings of the comic by labeling the TV show as "bad". Frankly for me I've had moments where I've either been reading the comic or watching the TV show and said to myself "why am I wasting my time with this book/show?" But somehow they both keep doing different things that keep me interested in both. *shrugs*
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As with Kirkman's other indie series, Invincible, The Walking Dead didn't pull me in until after the first 12 issues. What hooked me in both cases was the willingness to take risks in the storytelling. Once the "holy ****" moments started they just kept coming. I don't think we're seeing the same approach with the show; if anything, it seems more like they're playing a game of "let's run out the clock." The missteps are perhaps less forgivable because, as you said, good television series can effectively communicate the same things the comic did, and its nature as an adaption affords the creative forces the opportunity to tweak things for the better.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Eh, most people here are pretty quick to make the blanket implication that "the comic did it this way so that necessarily means what the TV show did was bad". Again I think each of of them have their own strengths and weaknesses.
I suppose I just have a hard time glossing the strengths of the TV show by saying the comic was "better" the same way that I'm not willing to gloss over the shortcomings of the comic by labeling the TV show as "bad". Frankly for me I've had moments where I've either been reading the comic or watching the TV show and said to myself "why am I wasting my time with this book/show?" But somehow they both keep doing different things that keep me interested in both. *shrugs* |
- CaptainFoamerang
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Well if you're looking for "holy ****" style storytelling the likes of which were in the Walking Dead comic then I could have told you that a Walking Dead TV show on AMC was going to fail for you from the begining. |
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
As with Kirkman's other indie series, Invincible, The Walking Dead didn't pull me in until after the first 12 issues. What hooked me in both cases was the willingness to take risks in the storytelling. Once the "holy ****" moments started they just kept coming. I don't think we're seeing the same approach with the show; if anything, it seems more like they're playing a game of "let's run out the clock." The missteps are perhaps less forgivable because, as you said, good television series can effectively communicate the same things the comic did, and its nature as an adaption affords the creative forces the opportunity to tweak things for the better.
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I've read enough of the comic to realize that there are plenty things they will never be able to translate directly over to a basic cable TV show. Maybe if HBO or Showtime had gotten this show there would have been a better chance for it to not only be able to do the "extreme" stuff but they might have had more money to make the entire plot/casting better in general.
So all things considered I take it for what it's worth: a basic cable TV show that's doing its best despite its inherent production limitations.
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Again, disagreed. There's been plenty of shows that have delivered moments of that magnitude regardless of being produced for basic television. It's not that The Walking Dead is limited by anything inherent. It's being limited by the talent involved, or lack thereof.
- CaptainFoamerang
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From what I've heard, the show has had it's budget slashed, so the writers are doing what they can with the little money they get. AMC is apparently putting most of it's money into Mad Men.
Idea: Cancel The Talking Dead and put whatever production money from that into The Walking Dead.
- CaptainFoamerang
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We get it, we get it, you don't like the show and it makes you miserable.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Idea: Cancel The Talking Dead and put whatever production money from that into The Walking Dead.
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Why don't you just do what any normal man would do in such a scenario and marry it?
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
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Wha-?|
Originally Posted by Starflier
We get it, we get it, you don't like the show and it makes you miserable.
Why don't you just do what any normal man would do in such a scenario and marry it? |
Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that whatever they put into that completely unnecessary show to talk about the show would be put to better use on the actual series.
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
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But it's easier to take from those who have already searched the area for supplies and collected them in one spot. Don't forget that Rick's group didn't find a whole lot of supplies at the traffic jam and going anywhere the population density was once high is now jammed packed with walkers. Don't forget Atlanta or that subdivision where Andrea Oakley was born.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
With all the totally unguarded supplies that would be littered across the country-side I think a roaming band of raiders (whatever their size) trying to infiltrate and destroy groups like Rick's for supplies would be an absolute waste of time and effort. This isn't like Mad Max where you have one group guarding the only supply of gas in the desert. If "slick-philly and live-action Carl" want supplies they can go anywhere for them without fighting.
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| Now it's always possible they might be after something else like live human slaves for sex or labor. But the fact that it's only been a few months since the ZA happened makes something like that highly unlikely. If the setting of this story was like 20 or 30 years after the ZA then I could believe enough time had passed for organized bands of live raiders to be scouring the land to find any last live people to enslave for their attempts to rebuild a power-base. But since it's only been a few months I don't think enough time has passed for any nomadic raiding party to be organized enough to want to do anything but avoid confrontation and just survive. |
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Basically "slick-philly and live-action Carl" as scouts for a wandering group of slavers from out-of-state makes no sense so soon after the ZA. But it might make a lot more sense if they turn out to be scouts for an established group of people who already have a permanent base nearby (i.e. the Governer's group). Then even after very short time they might be willing and able to send out scouts to the surrounding areas to see if other people are encamped near their base. |
Slick-philly's comment about the cop gun hints that he's given up the concept of law and order among the living. Live action Carl peeing on the floor hints that they are simply moving through and disrespectful to Rick and company and his comment about not having a woman recently implies that women are disposable commodity. They sort of remind me of the biker gang from Fallen Skies.
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| I guess what I'm saying is that if this doesn't turn out to be the introduction to the TV show's version of the Governer's group then it's going to seem highly "coincidental" (read totally contrived) that an organized group of travelling raiders from supposedly up north managed to find themselves all the way down in Georgia right on top of Rick's group in a matter of a few post-ZA months. |
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I just hope somebody shoots or bites Dale. I hate whiny passive aggressive people like that. I have to work with one.
And my thought is that the daughter was only scratched, not bitten so with the help of some antibiotics she will fight off the infection. Part of the remaining plot line will revolve around the possibility of being able to synthesize a cure or immunization from her blood. Ok, it might not happen but I know how much television shows tend to fall into cliche patterns once the budget is cut and cheaper writers are hired.
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It's not overthinking, it's a basic combat tactic. They were obviously looking for their camp for a reason. Add in that one mook's comment about women and it becomes even more apparent. Those two struck me as lowlifes to begin with and this didn't seem like their first time at the dance, but they got greedy and overreached.