SSA 5 Discussion (And countdown till its live!)
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-01-16 23:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Counter? I disagreed, then provided evidence based on what information we know. That's a pretty good counter right there. But that's fine.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
Ah you appear to be one of those people who doesn't engage in debate. (You disagree, but you do not counter.) Nevermind.
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This is pretty much my biggest issue with the SSA, the phalanx and the vindicators have come off as the most idiotic, dense, naive, morons I've ever seen in spandex. I'll make a list of times I slapped my face because they completely screwed everyone by doing something blatantly stupid.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Oh, pish tosh. I'm becoming rather tired of this recent bid to quiet any kind of dissent by categorizing it as someone's inability to "suspend disbelief" and then ridiculing them for their supposed lack of such a skill (since any truly imaginative person is able to use their imagination to fill in the blanks, presumably).
I've refrained from criticizing the arc primarily because I think that they probably did the best they could given the tools they had to work with, the apparent dislike of the dev staff for the character of Statesman, and the requirements that the arc be a certain length. There were a lot of custom locations in that arc and I figure that if some of them end up in the architect that some small good will have come out of the thing. None of that changes the fact: When I got to the end of the previous arc, the first thing I asked myself was the question that the mission contact asked - Why kill Miss Liberty? Even if he wanted her blood for the ritual, it wasn't necessary to kill her. What was the point. That most obvious answer was that he wanted to force a personal confrontation with Statesman. If I can figure that out within thirty seconds then I credit Statesman with the brains and experience to figure it out and take appropriate measures ahead of time. He didn't take those measures. You can rationalize it however you like, but in the end the reason he failed to take them is that the script required that he fail to take them. The requirement to suspend disbelief in such a situation is an implication that something is wrong with the script; otherwise it would be inherently believable. "Suspending disbelief" is not some wonderful attribute when it really means "deliberately ignoring the weakness in the script". Suspending disbelief is supposed to be about ignoring the things that DON'T matter to the script. "I know that carpets don't fly in the real world but for this fantasy I'll just go with it". When the script requires its characters to behave in ways that don't make sense, then pointing that out is not some flag that the person doing the pointing has a defective imagination. |
SSA1: Synapse gets a bit of leeway running into the hollows alone because he wasn't suspecting anything and a volcano had erupted. Not the best idea but I can understand.
SSA2: Nothing of note really.
SSA3: Here we go...... First Blitz, a guy possibly more unbalanced than any current dictator says he wants peace and only the unarmed daughter of Statesman can do it. She agrees to meet him in warburg......in his MAIN BASE.......in a room FULL OF ALL HIS TROOPS AND ONLY MANTICORE AS A BODY GUARD! Then when she gets kidnapped Manticore says we gotta keep it quiet and disable the missiles.....the missiles that Blitz launches throughout the final stage completely defeating the purpose of the second mission. Even then absolutely no effort is made to destroy the silo launching equipment to stop it outright. So since we spent so much time screwing around outside all over warburg doing squat, Wade has plenty of time to kill Libby and walk away twirling his moustache.
SSA4: Right off the bat Libby tells us that Penelope Yin offered her help, but she tells us that they refused it because she's only A PSYCHIC POWERFUL ENOUGH TO ALTER THE FABRIC OF REALITY! Pfft, total noob right? Then after the trap is sprung Manticore comes in saying "I'm going to kill that sick freak before he kills my wife!" we stop him from doing that so malaise can possess psyche and.......be blown up in her head 20 minutes later.....instead of before she got possessed..... Anyways after that all we need to do is destroy that fake leftover version of Aurora and she'll be okay. Let get he-WAK! *real aurora yanks us out and tells us they'll try to find a cure even though we were already in there*
SSA5: Right off the bat Libby destroys a silent operation by crashing into the isles with half the vindicators and getting Mako and the sidekick corp involved costing us time while Wade is moving. Then when infiltrating Wade's lair out of all the heroes to help us Positron sends.......crimson....and indigo. Then when the site of the ritual is found no one else is told except us and we take a -boat- there when at least half of the phalanx and the vindicators could have gotten there faster through either supersonic flight, running or magical teleportation. And then to top it all off States steps in the middle of the creepy mystic temple like a schmuck while this unpowered guy who isn't a threat is obviously goading him on for some reason on the other side of the big eerie magic seal.
If I, a normal person could completely destroy a plot by just holding up my hand and saying "Wait a sec. Why don't we do this instead?" with only about 10 seconds of thinking. You have failed at writing a good story.
There is a difference between retreating and giving up.
"A good evil villian kills with style"-Galgarion
"Ha you're more full of yourself than I am!"-Jack Spicer
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"A common form of *** Pull or Writer Cop Out, a Deus ex Machina is an outside force that solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in an extremely unlikely (and, usually, anticlimactic) way. If the secret documents are in Russian, one of the spies suddenly reveals that they learned the language. If the writers have just lost funding, a millionaire suddenly arrives, announces an interest in their movie, and offers all the finances they need to make it."|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
And he did. Did we know about this ritual at any place before this story? No.
Can any other villain NPC or PC have access to Wade's knowledge, planning and mystical ability? No. Do the actions of PC's either red or blueside have an impact on the storyline? No. These are all things built into the story to ensure that certain events happen. Deus ex machina is 'ghost in the machine' in French. An unseen party that enables events to happen a particular way. All of this story, which deliberately precludes the player characters from influencing the story in any meaningful way (see: The death of Miss Liberty, Statesman, the escape of Malaise) all happen in a manner controlled by external forces to the story. By that I mean we are unable to influence the outcome of Wade attacking Statesman for no other reason that we are not allowed to. That is deus ex machina. S. |
So far, that hasn't happened here. Yes, the arc is written in a manner where events play out regardless of player input, but that's NOT a DEM.
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Originally Posted by ElementalFury
If I, a normal person could completely destroy a plot by just holding up my hand and saying "Wait a sec. Why don't we do this instead?" with only about 10 seconds of thinking. You have failed at writing a good story.
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Since we're the audience we're automatically more Genre Savvy than the entirety of the cast.
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Not at all. But don't expect that a story that relies so heavily on deus ex machina to be seen as anything other than that. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Or it's just how writing in the game has to be to work?
You go in and fail the mission. So you keep repeating it untill it doesn't fail? Heroes go in to stop it, while villains go in to let it happen. Which side wins in the story? You say "My hero saved Statesman!" while another player says "No! My villain stopped the hero from saving Statesman!" Untill they can have phase tech work on every little thing in the game, I'd expect more of the stories in the game to go along that route. |
I've maintained constantly that the illusion of free will has been thrown out with this story. By that I mean I have no problem with a story moving forward so long as I'm made to feel I could have done something to change it. Here, that's not even a factor. These things happen and it's blatantly clear you can do nothing. Not one of your actions make a difference, or could make a difference, because all opportunity to attempt to do so is denied you.
You arrive too late to save Miss Liberty. You arrive too late to stop Malaise escaping. You stand by, presumably, as the cutscene with Statesman plays out.
Why, precisely? It's not going to harm the story if the players are given the impression that their actions have a meaningful impact to the story. This is, after all, about us, is it not?
And has been said, the suspension of disbelief also is thrown away here. I'm clearly not alone in thinking that the actions of a number of NPC's including Statesman are either out of character or just simply defy basic story logic. If it's so strikingly obvious, then the story isn't working on the most basic levels. That's not a personal attack on the writers, it's a criticism of the story that your experience is overriden by your inability to suspend your disbelief.
I'm not saying events don't have to happen; I am saying that they should have to happen in ways that are internally consistent to themselves, credible, and are not presented in manners that distance and alienate those involved with it.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
Actually with regards to the Statesman cutscene, I always played it as "Showing up a few seconds late", not "I was standing there the entire time and just didn't do jack."
We're just getting to see what happened so that we (the players), know what's going on.
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I'm sorry, but I must disagree. Did we know about the existence of the obelisk before? Did we know about the ritual before? No. |
Originally Posted by Issen
"A common form of *** Pull or Writer Cop Out, a Deus ex Machina is an outside force that solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in an extremely unlikely (and, usually, anticlimactic) way. If the secret documents are in Russian, one of the spies suddenly reveals that they learned the language. If the writers have just lost funding, a millionaire suddenly arrives, announces an interest in their movie, and offers all the finances they need to make it."
So far, that hasn't happened here. Yes, the arc is written in a manner where events play out regardless of player input, but that's NOT a DEM. |
Wade clearly solves the unsolveable problem of Statesman's Incarnate power with knowledge and ability that apparently appears out of nowhere, because it exists nowhere else in the entire game canon.
It's unlikely (why has noone else, including the Thorns or the Mu or any number of mystical entities found out about this?), it's anticlimactic (the ritual just works and Statesman dies, seemingly without struggle, and some have even posted here he's subconsciously committed suicide).
If there had been any indication that such things existed in the lore before this point (which begs the question why Prometheus doesn't know about it), there would've been credible reason to accept them. As it is, they seem solely created in this story for this sole purpose to achieve a result previously seen as unachievable.
I think it fulfills all the requirements of DEM.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Actually, the players DID know about the second obelisk. It's clearly mentioned in the cutscenes that there's another one. The ritual I'll admit seemed to come out of nowhere. But then the mention of Sister Arlia in Cimerora makes me wonder if it's actually mentioned somewhere in those story arcs somewhere, since I never did them.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
I'm sorry, but I must disagree. Did we know about the existence of the obelisk before? Did we know about the ritual before? No.
Wade clearly solves the unsolveable problem of Statesman's Incarnate power with knowledge and ability that apparently appears out of nowhere, because it exists nowhere else in the entire game canon. It's unlikely (why has noone else, including the Thorns or the Mu or any number of mystical entities found out about this?), it's anticlimactic (the ritual just works and Statesman dies, seemingly without struggle, and some have even posted here he's subconsciously committed suicide). If there had been any indication that such things existed in the lore before this point (which begs the question why Prometheus doesn't know about it), there would've been credible reason to accept them. As it is, they seem solely created in this story for this sole purpose to achieve a result previously seen as unachievable. I think it fulfills all the requirements of DEM. S. |
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Yes we as an audience get to be genre savvy but most of these problems have solutions that could be solved instantly even without being genre savvy. We need to get to cimerora fast before Wade gets his plan in action. Immediately the phalanx should look at synapse and numina as he can run at super sonic speed and be in italy/greece in about an hour and she can teleport. Hell call up Dark Watcher and Lady Grey and inform them that Statesman is about to die, the two of them could warp several people there. What about the midnighters who have a vested interest in seeing Wade's head on a pike? All of these could have completely solved the problem. On the other side to keep all those things in check they could have had Wade blow up his lair behind him and all the magical stuff going up shreds a massive hole in reality and now rularuu are are pouring out requiring all the other heroes to deal with it. As it stands though I can't see a 3 day boat ride to cimerora from rhode island being anyone's choice of getting to the destination quickly when time is of the essence.
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Originally Posted by Issen
No. That's not it at all. For starters, you can't expect writers to be able to account for every single possibility, however likely or unlikely, that anyone else might think of. Just because you can think of something doesn't mean the characters could.
Since we're the audience we're automatically more Genre Savvy than the entirety of the cast. |
There is a difference between retreating and giving up.
"A good evil villian kills with style"-Galgarion
"Ha you're more full of yourself than I am!"-Jack Spicer
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Uh, that's how the whole game works |
Originally Posted by SuperOz
These are all things built into the story to ensure that certain events happen. Deus ex machina is 'ghost in the machine' in French. An unseen party that enables events to happen a particular way.
All of this story, which deliberately precludes the player characters from influencing the story in any meaningful way (see: The death of Miss Liberty, Statesman, the escape of Malaise) all happen in a manner controlled by external forces to the story. By that I mean we are unable to influence the outcome of Wade attacking Statesman for no other reason that we are not allowed to. That is deus ex machina. |
All the major events happen, regardless of what the player does - and they even happen if the palyer doesn't take part in the content at all.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Yeah, that's a byproduct of the kind of MMO this is, not of poor writing or design. I've played MMOs where player-driven events and conflicts took precedence over scripted events, and ones where there was no repeatable content because every event happened in real time (whether scripted, open-ended, or a combination of the two). In which case, for instance, if you hadn't been there for Statesman's death on the date and time it happened on your server, you'd never have been able to experience that story content ever again, sucked to be you.
The only way to avoid this entirely is to go play a single-player game. Some might wish that every major event could turn out differently depending on how the team played, but in that case we'd have no real sense of history, and a game featuring an evolving collection of storylines relies major on major historical points.
This is mostly a useless post. I think we all know this.
Given all my experience with MMOs, I prefer City of X's model, but this strictly comes down to personal taste. Chocolate or strawberry? That sort of thing. There are tradeoffs with every model that MMOs have tried. City of X's way of doing things first appeared in Earth and Beyond (R.I.P.), and although it does take a certain amount of suspension of disbelief to enjoy, I've always preferred it. At major points it puts an already written story first, and so to enjoy the historical flow, you have to give in to that and pretend to have been a participant.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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Yo dawg! First arc of the Top Cow comic! Statesman had his powers yoinked just like every other super in Paragon City and then he got killed. Killed hard enough that Numina couldn't resurrect him until Manticore used a very risky move to bring him back. That's recent.| But honestly, even given the number of times Statesman has been captured or sealed (all of which were only temporary) none of them resulted in the loss of his power or immortality. |
Hell, the man knows what Sapper guns are, right?
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| No matter how well the writing goes, suspension of disbelief is partly a skill, and partly a gift of the imagination that not everyone has. |
I assure you I have no lack of imagination: I can imagine much, much better stories than this.
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| Walking into a trap you know exists because you're confident the trap is one you can handle isn't arrogance. |
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| Uhhh, no. Deus ex machina means he got a magic "I win button" that came out of thin air to solve his problems. |
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| Hmmm...but would he be thinking clearly when his daughter has been killed? |
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| Deus ex machina is 'ghost in the machine' in French. |
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| Yes we as an audience get to be genre savvy but most of these problems have solutions that could be solved instantly even without being genre savvy. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I remember that Top Cow comic. I still got it too. The god dude(Forgot his name. Prometheus? I think) even says "Nice shot" since it was Manticore that killed Statesman. All part of the risky move.
So yes its been used before. Its not just a "I win" button. Thats why Darrin Wade said to Statesman, "I'm sure this feels quite familiar" because it was.
Luficia's Virtueverse Page
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Actually I think they left time travel in as an out in case this went over sourly. All we have to do is go back in time, pound Sister Airlia into the ground and find a different way of destroying nictus rommie and the ritual to kill statesman will never exist.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Never mind that, notice how time travel conveniently leaves the stage, especially after Wade was considerate enough to spell out everything he's done. "Oh, Cimerora..." *opens Ouroboros portal* "...seen you earlier, dude..."
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There is a difference between retreating and giving up.
"A good evil villian kills with style"-Galgarion
"Ha you're more full of yourself than I am!"-Jack Spicer
Also, to take into consideration Issen: Statesman lost his DAUGHTER.
You don't have to argue if whether or not he was arrogant or not. Issen. This man lost his daughter. Anyone who is a parent knows how they would feel if their kid was murdered in cold blood. They'd want to either hunt this man down or do everything to help to get this person behind bars.
Statesman did a mixture of both.
He's suffered enough grief with the death of his wife and barely got back up for that. Now some jerk comes and murders his daughter. Of course he isn't going to think rationally. He's going to hunt this jerk down and arrest him. He's going to overlook clues in his bid to avenge his daughter. He probably KNEW it was a trap but wasn't sure the magnitude of what he was facing at the time so he went on in it anyway.
So in some ways, I was a little "meh" with how they did it... but since I've read the comics, the books, etc: The whole thing? I came to really appreciate it. I liked it. I hope we can murder Darrin Wade now but, hey, I can see where it came to.
So. Come March: We declare it "Punch Darrin Wade like a pinata" day.
Luficia's Virtueverse Page
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Oh, I'm not arguing that.|
Originally Posted by Alevan
Also, to take into consideration Issen: Statesman lost his DAUGHTER.
You don't have to argue if whether or not he was arrogant or not. Issen. This man lost his daughter. Anyone who is a parent knows how they would feel if their kid was murdered in cold blood. They'd want to either hunt this man down or do everything to help to get this person behind bars. Statesman did a mixture of both. He's suffered enough grief with the death of his wife and barely got back up for that. Now some jerk comes and murders his daughter. Of course he isn't going to think rationally. He's going to hunt this jerk down and arrest him. He's going to overlook clues in his bid to avenge his daughter. He probably KNEW it was a trap but wasn't sure the magnitude of what he was facing at the time so he went on in it anyway. So in some ways, I was a little "meh" with how they did it... but since I've read the comics, the books, etc: The whole thing? I came to really appreciate it. I liked it. I hope we can murder Darrin Wade now but, hey, I can see where it came to. So. Come March: We declare it "Punch Darrin Wade like a pinata" day. |
But claiming that walking into a trap knowing it's a trap but confident you could handle it ISN'T arrogant. Confidence =/= Arrogance. But this is Venture, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering.
And yes, ICly my character who did that arc is furious. At this point actually, killing Darrin Wade wouldn't be vigilantism. He's stolen Statesman power, and could potentially steal/kill any number of other heroes, plus he's already stated murderous intent towards Psyche. At this point finding him and killing him would be justified homicide because he's a danger to every meta-human, not to mention the fact he stole Statesman power, meaning not even Incarnates are safe.
I played it on the Villains side last night for the first time and I quite enjoyed it.
*spoilers*
When Statesman's family started appearing and said its essentially time to give up the ghost, I felt really sad for him. The animations used to kill him along with the locale really made his death feel epic and memorable. Really well done.
On another note: why do I feel like Issue 23 is going to have a Shadow Shard refresh? 
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Which neatly divides the hero player base into two seperate categories, those willing to rationalize some killings as "necessary" and "justified", and those that don't kill. Sadly for me, Statesman's death was a very clear statement as to what side the devs will favor from now on.
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Originally Posted by Issen
And yes, ICly my character who did that arc is furious. At this point actually, killing Darrin Wade wouldn't be vigilantism. He's stolen Statesman power, and could potentially steal/kill any number of other heroes, plus he's already stated murderous intent towards Psyche. At this point finding him and killing him would be justified homicide because he's a danger to every meta-human, not to mention the fact he stole Statesman power, meaning not even Incarnates are safe.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Uh, that's how the whole game works
All the major events happen, regardless of what the player does - and they even happen if the palyer doesn't take part in the content at all. |
So all those missions we undertake where you know...we can succeed are what? Aberrations?
Nice try, GG, but that's a big logic fail.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
Spot on, Zemblanity.
But then we've known which side the Devs are on for a while since Praetoria and particularly First Ward, where killing is not only justified, it's mandatory. Just look at the ending to First Ward and I'm pretty sure there's more than a few heroes feeling like they just got their hands soaked in blood against their wishes.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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First of all, it's not French, it's Latin. The concept comes from Greek theatre, where a playwright would set up characters, a situation and a conflict, and then resolve the conflict by having a god show up at the last minute and fix everything. On stage, this would be done by using a crane to show the deity descending from Olympus - a god from a machine.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
These are all things built into the story to ensure that certain events happen. Deus ex machina is 'ghost in the machine' in French. An unseen party that enables events to happen a particular way.
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Deus Ex Machina is not just anything that "enables events to happen in a particular way". It is a specific sort of *ending* where the main conflict is resolved using an element that comes completely out of nowhere and invalidates everything else that's happened. If all the characters could have just gone home to watch TV after the first act and it would not change the ending in the least, you have a Deus Ex Machina.
You have to remember that while the arcs are self-contained and each one does try to set up and resolve a plot, they are all part of a story, and the story is *about* Darrin Wade and his campaign against the Freedom Phalanx. Deus Ex Machina occurs at the *end* of a story. WWD5 is the middle of it, specifically the part where the antagonist is supposed to score a significant victory and things look bleak for our heroes. You can argue about how well it was pulled off, but you can't call it a Deus Ex Machina or the term becomes completely meaningless.
If at the very end of WWD7, a character who was not seen or mentionned before suddenly shows up and stops Wade once and for all, *that* is a Deus Ex Machina. If Wade suddenly keels over from a previously-unmentionned shellfish allergy, that is a Deus Ex Machina. Darrin Wade having a previously-unmentionned Cimeroran ritual that can bind Statesman in WWD5 is not a Deus Ex Machina, especially with many references to Cimerora and Sister Arilia scattered throughout WWD2-4.
Character index
Pedantry aside... WWD5 actually got an emotional reaction from me. My character, who is usually cheerful, optimistic, and unyielding in the face of any evil, felt genuinely at a loss for the first time in her career. She has travelled time, faced gods, and unravelled the very fabric of reality, but this was just too *big* for her to process. Darrin Wade hasn't just killed a very strong hero, he's taken down the symbol of an entire era. She really isn't sure if there is anything to do that won't just be simple retribution.
It's the first bit of official writing since Hero Tips that I actually want to integrate into the character's ongoing story and play out the reprecussions, instead of reading it, going "...moving on!" and pretending it never existed.
Character index
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Hey, I can cop to misunderstanding the origin of the phrase. I had it taught to me that it was French, but it's Latin. That's cool. |
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
First of all, it's not French, it's Latin. The concept comes from Greek theatre, where a playwright would set up characters, a situation and a conflict, and then resolve the conflict by having a god show up at the last minute and fix everything. On stage, this would be done by using a crane to show the deity descending from Olympus - a god from a machine.
Deus Ex Machina is not just anything that "enables events to happen in a particular way". It is a specific sort of *ending* where the main conflict is resolved using an element that comes completely out of nowhere and invalidates everything else that's happened. If all the characters could have just gone home to watch TV after the first act and it would not change the ending in the least, you have a Deus Ex Machina. You have to remember that while the arcs are self-contained and each one does try to set up and resolve a plot, they are all part of a story, and the story is *about* Darrin Wade and his campaign against the Freedom Phalanx. Deus Ex Machina occurs at the *end* of a story. WWD5 is the middle of it, specifically the part where the antagonist is supposed to score a significant victory and things look bleak for our heroes. You can argue about how well it was pulled off, but you can't call it a Deus Ex Machina or the term becomes completely meaningless. If at the very end of WWD7, a character who was not seen or mentionned before suddenly shows up and stops Wade once and for all, *that* is a Deus Ex Machina. If Wade suddenly keels over from a previously-unmentionned shellfish allergy, that is a Deus Ex Machina. Darrin Wade having a previously-unmentionned Cimeroran ritual that can bind Statesman in WWD5 is not a Deus Ex Machina, especially with many references to Cimerora and Sister Arilia scattered throughout WWD2-4. |
Actually I can argue however that it was deus ex machina. Each chapter of this story is self-contained until such time as the next part of the story comes out. There is no 'to be continued' labelled on any of these and there is a distinct phase of beginning, middle and end to this chapter. The important point here is that there are direct elements being used here that are as you say, the god coming down from the heavens.
Darrin Wade's sudden information on how to steal power from Incarnates. Darrin Wade's ability to harness that power that somehow the Thorns, the Mu and even the Midnighters have missed. And finally, the spell that works with no resistance and ends Statesman's life.
If you want to argue this strictly on the semantics of when deus ex machina are concerned, I'll agree to disagree with you because in the literary sense, the actual 'mechanic' of the plot device is as used as much mid-story and even at the beginning of many modern stories. Just because that's how the term originated, doesn't mean that the principle hasn't been taken and applied out of tense to the story.
And in this story, the principle of deus ex machina has been applied more than once (the obelisk, the repeated 'lateness' of player characters onto the scene by what...random chance? Hard to argue in a written story...) to the point where I believe it's entirely applicable in this case. If you would care to show me where the principle of elements beyond the story directly affecting it are not present, I'm happy to listen.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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An improbable plot device is not a deus ex machina. Using the wrong tense of a verb is a grammar error, not a spelling error. Both are wrong, but they are not the same error.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
Hey, I can cop to misunderstanding the origin of the phrase. I had it taught to me that it was French, but it's Latin. That's cool.
Actually I can argue however that it was deus ex machina. Each chapter of this story is self-contained until such time as the next part of the story comes out. There is no 'to be continued' labelled on any of these and there is a distinct phase of beginning, middle and end to this chapter. The important point here is that there are direct elements being used here that are as you say, the god coming down from the heavens. Darrin Wade's sudden information on how to steal power from Incarnates. Darrin Wade's ability to harness that power that somehow the Thorns, the Mu and even the Midnighters have missed. And finally, the spell that works with no resistance and ends Statesman's life. If you want to argue this strictly on the semantics of when deus ex machina are concerned, I'll agree to disagree with you because in the literary sense, the actual 'mechanic' of the plot device is as used as much mid-story and even at the beginning of many modern stories. Just because that's how the term originated, doesn't mean that the principle hasn't been taken and applied out of tense to the story. And in this story, the principle of deus ex machina has been applied more than once (the obelisk, the repeated 'lateness' of player characters onto the scene by what...random chance? Hard to argue in a written story...) to the point where I believe it's entirely applicable in this case. If you would care to show me where the principle of elements beyond the story directly affecting it are not present, I'm happy to listen. |
A Deus Ex Machina is an ending where *all* the characters and actions so far are rendered meaningless, not just some or even most of them. If the ending of WWD5 would have been the same even if Wade, Statesman *and* the player character had all decided to just stay home, then it would be a Deus Ex Machina.
Every story will have moments where something "just has to happen". The main characters in a romantic comedy have to run into each other somehow. The villain has to be a credible threat, and needs to have access to something that could well defeat the heroes.
Comics and games are additionally hampered because they have to build stories on top of what came before. If you were writing a book that was entirely about a clever, ruthless small-time crook going after a seemingly invulnerable hero, you could take your time building the little clues into every mention of the hero's powers, so that when the crook springs the trap the readers would go "aha... so when they said this and this, that *also* could mean *this*! and that makes it possible to do this! *Clever*."
But in game Statesman was never written with an eye towards having him eventually killed off by Wade, so the writers have to fudge a little. They do try to play it fair by introducting some of the elements - Wade's interest in Cimerora, his owning of a power-draining obelisk, his taking of Alex Cole's blood before killing her - in consecutive parts of the arc. But ultimately, as in many comic books that decide to kill off the main character, whatever kills Statesman *has* to come out of nowhere, because no previous writer had laid any groundwork for it.
So, yes. There are plot devices in this plot that come out of nowhere. Not the same as a deus ex machina, but something writers should avoid if possible.
While people in this thread have whine about "suspension of disbelief" being used as a shield for bad writing, in the end it's up to personal preference. If you enjoy seeing the leads of a romcom interact, you'll forgive the improbable accident that pushed them together in the first place. If you dislike them both, then you'll just see the clichees and the misunderstandings that only happen so the movie can run the alotted time.
Either the story grabs you enough to forgive the "coincidences" it needs to work, or it doesn't.
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It better not. The Shadow Shard is a bloody awesome looking zone. By all means add new zones, but don't remove old ones in the process.
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Originally Posted by Rubberlad
On another note: why do I feel like Issue 23 is going to have a Shadow Shard refresh?
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On the contrary, however, I don't tire of your bid to unquiet your dissent, to make your criticisms heard-- I know you're not an insatiable cynic, and I trust that you could have been pleased by a different outcome. Still, I'm not going to argue any of your points, because I don't expect you to be able to help the reasons why you're dissatisfied. Please understand that after reading two novels, a dozen comic books, and many missions, I--along with many others--found this to be a believable and praiseworthy ending, and much like yourself, we can't help ourselves!
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