Ustream 1/11/2012

Okay, that got a split-second-delayed laugh out of me!

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

You... scare me... when you're on one of your highs-- though the attitude meshes with your forum avatar rather nicely

Haha!
I often find extremes are more closely related than the expanses of mediocrity!
And thanks!
And it is only through my extreme optimism that I get to experience how much everything sucks!

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

I have a couple martial artists that can use it. I didn't even know that I wanted it until I saw the set.

What do you mean by Native American?

Do bones, leather, and facepaint cover it?, like Manitou Dawn or Turok?
Or is leather-and tassles in a traditional superhero cut costume like Dawnstar? acceptable?
Are we talking about subtle accents like Echo's arm feathers and paint? or moonstar's feather earrings?
(tangent- Moonstar cannot be a cat owner. No cat-owner would allow feathers that close to their jugular... just saying)
Maybe something more Marvel-y in its representation?
or this?
or more Mike Grell-styled?


Native American is a pretty broad topic area, so I'm curious about what you'd want in such a clearly-desired pack.

Plenty of people playing this game probably know enough to sing along to
Nacho nacho man...
I got to be... A nacho man...

I was going to say. Someone out there must have taped the show religiously.

Yes if anyone has that episode or finds it you should post a link here pretty please, I would love to see zwilinger giving ben stein snark. :P

Those are all extremely good reference points, and I'm sure more can be had with a fuller community discussion. My point is that the choice of Club Kid and Imperial Dynasty costume packs is pretty narrow-minded niche items that really don't fit the spirit of a comic book MMO game - especially when we've had much the same already (Martial Arts pack; various modern day outfits added to the game over the years). I just can't believe that somebody thought Imperial Dynasty was a more important/"in demand" set to have over a Native American set (or a Pulp Fiction set, a Greek Mythology set, a Deep Sea Divers set, a Fairy Prince/Princess set, an Ancient Egypt set, a Golden Age Warfare/WWII set, a Private Detective set, a Mayan/Aztec set, a Race Car Driver set, an Intrepid Explorer set, a Ballerina set, a Post-Apocalypse set, etc). That we have another Roman Armor set on top of what can already be achieved just by playing ITF also seems rather redundant.

I'm just questioning the way these costume sets are chosen/prioritized. We're moving further and further away from the comic book influences this game started out with its not even funny (although I'm glad for the upcoming Space/Astronaut pack or whatever the hell its called and the Barbarian/Gunslinger packs were more "on topic").

I know folks will disagree - that's fine. Others who are probably already upset that there are no new claws/shields items with these packs might appreciate why they'd rather limited resources be put to work on those widely popular powersets instead of a Club Kid costume set. Future costume packs need to be more balanced in terms of what customizeable weapon options are made available and they need to better emulate a certain influence of the comic book genre that we've not seen represented in-game before. We really don't need even more asian-centric costumes right now; nor do we need a club kid outfit so we can roleplay the Sims in Pocket D. There are just too many other comic book/cultural influences missing in-game after 7 years that still need to be addressed.

Sorry folks, but that's the way I feel.

I can see some risk in the "native american" set, though I WOULD like to have some.

- as you say "more can be had" with a discussion. My selection there would already require more pieces than any one pack and wouldn't cover enough bases to satisfy many (and be WAY off for others). A "native american" pack is bound to have broad expectations that aren't met, so that makes conceptualizing and valuing such a pack difficult.

- The press issue- "native american" characterization is a touchy subject that's easy to get negative press about. Any costume pack would by its nature have to select a few iconic elements to focus on, and that's bound to get those that lament over the generic misrepresntation of native americans in a tizzy if not VERY delicately-managed.

- The design- If you go for a full "costume set" design, you're going to end up choosing one person's definition of native american over another's- Do you focus on Turok's leather-and-bone that (to me) reflects some northeast tribes or the more colorful symbols that you see in some of the southwest tribes' rituals?

- Many of my examples had a more 'accessory' feel where some native american elements appear integrated with more modern styles. The way current "sets" are done really works against this method, but I'd love to have this kind of "accessory pack*" that blends in better with other costumes. mixes of native american head detail (headbands, headdresses, earrings, facepaint patterns, etc), shoulder detail (pelt shoulder elements, upper-arm feather bands, etc), chest details (the bone-chestpiece) and weapons (tomahawk, bow, etc) and tassles* (upper arm, glove, boot, belt).

*This would be my preference, but it lacks the overall look that the devs seem to be gravitating to. I'd love to see this just as an array of items that work well with other stuff in other packs- along with the superhero-accented suits, I could see these style pieces working for the barbarian sets, the animal sets, and the gunslinger packs, potentially drawing more sales of these packs as more costume concepts bring them together.

**Tassles also pose a problem, visually they'd be rather immobile and sticklike. It would be ideal to have them flow and shift in an almost mini-cape like manner, but not technologically feasible. You're left with making them shorter and less striking than preferred just so their obvious stiffness doesn't cause aesthetic issues.


Anyway, the point of all this was just to say that yes, while there may be an obvious interest in such a pack, there isn't always an obvious path forward... or a better place down the path for such things to appear (we have 4-legged critter animations, animal packs, barbarian-themed packs, and a new zone that hilighted art styles for different wilderness areas... all of which might be used as building blocks toward new wilderness zones in the future where such styles could REALLY find a fit.)

Frankly, I don't see how what I bolded above is any more "comic book" than the Imperial Dynasty costume set. To be fair, I'm not even sure what "comic book" means whenever this argument is brought up against certain costume sets.

There is a long, storied and varied tradition of Chinese martial arts comic books, in which the Imperial Dynasty sets would fit perfectly. Are these not part of your definition of comic books?

I can see why people use "comic books" rather than "superheroes" because they don't want to limit their argument to just spandex tights. However, it is for that very reason that more "comic book" like is ultimately meaningless, since it encompasses just about any theme or origin you want for your character.

I'm sorry, I can't help but feel that the whole "more comic book like" argument is little more than "I don't care for this particular genre, I like these others better". That's perfectly valid and I've shared that feeling myself, but it's not the same as claiming that the costume in question is not very comic book like.

nuuuuuuu they can nerf Rock!!!! its the end all beat all epicly awessome sauce power!!!!!!! :O :O

There's an even simpler explaination for this than trying to define what is or isn't "comic booky" enough. Paragon Studios is owned by NCSoft which is a Korean company. I suspect that any addition to the game which is even remotely Asian in nature is going to be more likely green-lit by the Devs than any other type of genre. *shrugs*

Pulp was the start of comic books really, heck just look at the Shadow.

Golden Age/WW2? Massive boom in comic books during that time, never read the really old stuff? Heck never seen the Watchmen?

Detective? Detective comics 'nuff said.

The rest are way out there.

That said I think this set kinda missed the ideal Chinease new year, release date maybe.

I certainly don't feel the need to defend my comic book credentials, but I get your point. However, in that laundry list of more "comic book like" genres, the majority are "way out there", hence my response.

If that were the case, I would have expected the Imperial Dynasty to have come out a long time ago, certainly before Gunslinger, Halloween, Steampunk, Valkyrie, IDF, etc. etc.

Your simple explanation seems more knee-jerk than reality-based.

My simple explaination needs no "would have been done already" time component to make it viable.

Today, as of January 2012, the Devs probably have several costumes sets on the drawing board. Assuming they had a meeting to prioritize them it's very easy to see that Imperial Dynasty might have bumped any of the others currently being worked on -right- now for the arbitrary Asian reason alone. Besides it's obvious they were trying to line it up with Chinese New Year regardless.

It might not need it, but it would have strengthened your weak position.

My larger point, which I would have thought would be clear to someone with your keen insight, is that if your arbitrary Asian rationale had any merit, then there would be a much greater Asian influence in the game. It's not like NCSoft hasn't always been Korean-owned.

Yet, despite the Robes (which are clearly a remnant of the abandoned "City of Hero" effort) and Martial Arts (which was a "Natural" origins based pack), I see little of what might be considered an obvious Asian influence.

And you base all this on concept art being revealed. We don't even have a release date, other than Soon (TM) on Beta. Yet, you are able to divine priorities from the preview alone.

As for lining it up with Chinese New Year, Zwii has already said it would not be out in time or the holiday. But, being inspired by the holiday is a completely different than explanation than your arbitrary Asian reason. Unless you are also claiming that the Halloween Pack came about due to a classic movie monster being a major shareholder in NCSoft.

Yeah and Zwii also made it pretty clear that they were shooting for Chinese New Year with this even if they miss it by a little bit. Sounds like that has something to do with it being Asian-oriented to me. *shrugs*

Seriously, the Devs literally only need one reason for the prioritization of any given costume pack over another: it's what THEY want to do. My idea that it had something to do with being Asian-oriented, in light of the Devs' ability to do whatever the heck they want whenever they want, is just as reasonable as any other silly idea you, I or any other player could dream up.

You're basically making a tremendous mountain out of what's ultimately a trivial molehill here.

Where you see Asian-oriented, I see holiday-oriented. It just happens to be an Asian holiday. And, of course, my point was never that the Imperial Dynasty was not Asian-oriented, but only that I disputed your claim that NCSoft's Korean-ownership is the reason for the creation of this set.

I see no mountain here, only contesting your intimation that ethnicity was a factor, whereas another holiday-based costume set would have been a simple enough reason.

I brought up "ethnicity" simply as one of a possible million arbitrary reasons the Devs could use for something like this.

All else being equal the fact that NCSoft is an Asian company does give any addition to this game that's Asian-oriented at least one more point in its favor. If two possible upgrades to this game are absolutely equal as far as the Devs are concerned in all ways except one is Asian-oriented and the other isn't, I'd know which way to bet.

There is no way you could possibly "dispute" that terribly simple common sense. *shrugs*