Costumed Hero and Villain NPC battles should be the bread and butter of the game. Even comics have long since moved away from waves of mindless minions in favor of more costume-on-costume battles. Villain groups in comics are really just fillers to get you to the real fight anyway, but here, those "real fights" are too few and far between. It would be cool if we (the players) could submit characters that could be added to the game to randomly spawn either in missions or in the open world for players to fight. Give these characters a little smarter AI than the usual spawns and give them something to do before they interact with the player.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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I don't know. I like fighting waves of faceless minions most of the time. In fact, I feel this is very important to set a baseline expectation and make me feel like I'm king of the world before I meet something big which is an actual problem. I really, REALLY don't want to see mooks seen as filler with only the big fights featuring in our missions... And that kind of IS a problem with newer content, by the way. There are so many scripted sequences and conversations we fight almost nothing between the mission start and the boss. That ain't right.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Costumed Hero and Villain NPC battles should be the bread and butter of the game. Even comics have long since moved away from waves of mindless minions in favor of more costume-on-costume battles. Villain groups in comics are really just fillers to get you to the real fight anyway, but here, those "real fights" are too few and far between. It would be cool if we (the players) could submit characters that could be added to the game to randomly spawn either in missions or in the open world for players to fight. Give these characters a little smarter AI than the usual spawns and give them something to do before they interact with the player.
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That said, I like fighting elite bosses, and not that rarely. In the same night I talked about "superior tech," I ended up facing Bile the Technophile in an alternate reality. My reaction - and this was written and text and sent as a tell - was "Hello, Bile! This should be fun!" Musings of how much my Blaster would have been terrified of an EB I hadn't prepared for while my Mastermind rejoiced aside, that was a fun fight. It was a nasty fight, since Bile has a couple of powerful AoEs and he ran way a lot, but I won and I had fun.
When I say "new stuff to fight," I include elite bosses in this. Fighting tons of 5th Council soldiers may have grown a little stale, but fighting Requiem or Nosferatu or Vandal is still fun.
At the end of the day, I want new factions to fight that I haven't fought in a while, and I do want the occasional elite boss to spice things up, but not at the cost of NOT having to go through an army of mooks.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Variety is the spice of life, they say, and it's true. I loved fighting (thematically anyway) the Rogue PPD in some of the newer arcs. Because, on Heroes, you NEVER fight anything like that. Sure from a mechanics point of view they were the same and the same pile of 'ARGH I hate you!' that they are for Villains.
But stuff like the Tuatha and Firbolg and things you rarely fight or have to go out of your way to find tend to be more interesting to fight. Redcaps fit their descriptions so perfectly in their actions; they are small, annoying and yet also incredibly dangerous if you let them be.
It's the same reason I really want the Shadow Shard to get some such badly needed revamping and love and general accessability; because the mobs there are so weird, alien and different.
It's also, on the flip side, why I get so damn sick of Nemesis and high level Crey; they are ALL copy-paste recolours of the same damn mob. Nemesis has, ultimately, Two Infantry, an LT class, robots and thats IT. They are all just re-colours of the same things. Crey at high levels loses all its personality with its secret agents, armoured personal, experimental power armour and the secretive Paragon Protectors. And its ALL facelss power armour. Which...is kind of lame actually.
The Rikti suffer a little bit from lack of diversity. I do get sick of drone mobs, and I wouldn't shed a single oily tear if all their damn monkeys spontaneously dropped dead in their own gas. Having MGP bosses (Mobile Gun Platforms), which would be very slow but very heavy hitting cut-down versions of the EB battlesuits would be cool, along with more Drone variety instead of 'a total embuggerance to hit'.
Unique enemies or special variants are good. Copy-pasta is bad and tastes bad too.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Ack! The Shard! Of course, that's another place I can find new enemies to fight. It's been literally years since I fought the Shadow Shard enemies proper, outside of a random cameo for one mission and then never again. I wonder how my Bots Mastermind will do...
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
It's the same reason I really want the Shadow Shard to get some such badly needed revamping and love and general accessability; because the mobs there are so weird, alien and different.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Dunno why, but I'm sort of in agreement with Proton.
I tend to like 'showdowns' and 'call outs' where the foe is kind of the same as my character (at least in ability origin/use). No, not the dopplegangers...tired of fighting clones where there should be no clones (and even if you clone some of my characters, how in the world do they have powers that even come close to the original? You can't clone skill or knowledge!!)
There's some arcs where some person will challenge the magical might of my stormie with their own magic, or a costumed fighter will call out my melee guy and exchange fists/lock swords...just wish there was more of that. But general 'boss vs boss' is good. Loved the ending of the Shining Stars Arc, that tourney somewhere in the Praetoria Power arc was right up my alley, some of the newer villain stuff really challenged the arcane might of my sorceress, 1st ward was just oodles of fun solo for me...
If I were adding some new content, something where a cosmic force seeks out the truly strong or potentially powerful and snatches them up for a tournament of champions. There'd be matches where you face off against named foes as well as waves of forces to test you. So much fun 
"Rook?" Clever name for a /Traps character.
I feel this too. My response was to delve deeply into the MA and make my own enemy groups to fight when I am bored of fighting the standard in game foes.
I have also made "costumed" enemies AV's and EB's to fight ala the showdown scenario. While not perfect, it certainly fills the gap for "me".
My Thugs/Time MM eats +4X8 for lunch so I had to do something for a challenge.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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This gets into the "you can't tickle yourself" problem, however. Yes, I can make enemies of my own, but by the time I get to fighting them, they really aren't new stuff any more. They're stuff I made. I suppose I could make them, shelf them and then fight them a year down the line when I've forgotten, but I've never been able to plan that far ahead.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I feel this too. My response was to delve deeply into the MA and make my own enemy groups to fight when I am bored of fighting the standard in game foes.
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That said, I have already proven that my robots are superior to those of either Anti-Matter or Neuron. Only the War Works left to go
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yup, its not perfect, but it looks pretty close.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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That can be difficult when team sizes can be between 1-8 - there could only be one "real" costumed villain for us to fight, and 1-7 "fillers", depending on the team size.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Costumed Hero and Villain NPC battles should be the bread and butter of the game.
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For example, when we fight Protean on Jenni Adiar's arc, the game adds "filler" 5th Column with him, based on the size of the team - having more or fewer of them with him doesn't really change the story, because it's all about fighting him.
But if there were costumed villains instead of the 5th Column, then they'd have to be very generic, and not have any impact on the story, as there's no guarantee they'd all always be there if the team wasn't a full 8.
It works fine on, say, the KTF, where we fight 5 AVs in the final room, because there's a minimum team size, so the game knows there'll always be a certain number of heroes in that battle, so the story can be written to include all 5 AVs - but that can't be done very easily for normal story arcs, because every story arc needs to be soloable, so the game can only ever calculate encounters from the idea that there might only be one hero doing the arc.
Like with the Protean fight, the game has to make it Protean plus x number of 5th Column because it has to balance it with there being 1-8 heroes - it can't make it, say, Protean, plus Vandal, Nosferatu and Requiem, because there's no guarnatee that there'll be at least 4 heroes on the team - which means it'd have to remove one or more of the named bosses if the team was smaller than 4, meaning that those named bosses couldn't be written into the story, just in case the team wasn't large enough to spawn them, which would totally remove the impact of going up against a group of individual costumed villains.
All normal story arc boss encounters are based around 1 named boss plus x number of goons vs 1 hero plus 1-7 friends, which gives total flexibility for team sizes, with zero impact on the story.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I do this too although I tend to seek out other players' arcs rather than creating my own. Player created characters in the MA can be a lot tougher than mobs outside and can present a unique challenge to those looking for it. There are plenty of good lists of decent MA arcs that I tend to play more these days as the challenges in them are a lot more interesting that the 'follow the big shouty red letters' type of missions we seem to be getting these days. It's just a shame that rewards in the MA are so inconsistent and that thanks to the filter, I run into a lot of broken ones now. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I feel this too. My response was to delve deeply into the MA and make my own enemy groups to fight when I am bored of fighting the standard in game foes.
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I do like that the Devs have revisted some old mobs and added new foes such as the annoying Super Stunner to the Freakshow, the Girlfriend from Hell for the Hellions and the Chi Master for the Tsoo. I'd love to see some more of those added to other groups but some interesting new groups would be good to see too. Mobs with unique and challenging powers, not just retreads of existing sets. The revamped Tsoo and Pantheon for DA might bring this as well as the Battallion when they arrive but something for the 1 - 50 content would be nice too.
(Side thought: I wonder if the new mobs for DA and the Battalion will bring anti-incarnate powers to the table? That might be interesting.)
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Oooh like good old Anti-Magic from Dungeon and Dragons Master... |
Originally Posted by Dante
(Side thought: I wonder if the new mobs for DA and the Battalion will bring anti-incarnate powers to the table? That might be interesting.)
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*bzzzt*
Whats that, you are a level 20 wizard who is *only* capable of casting a single cantrip a day (cantrips being classed as level 0 spells...)
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Gosh darn I really really hope they don't do that kind of junk. |
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
Oooh like good old Anti-Magic from Dungeon and Dragons Master...
*bzzzt* Whats that, you are a level 20 wizard who is *only* capable of casting a single cantrip a day (cantrips being classed as level 0 spells...) |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Well, not necessarily to that level, but possibly keeping the level shift *whilst* getting reduced to 3/4 - 1/2 "Incarnate" power effectiveness
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Gosh darn I really really hope they don't do that kind of junk.
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The 3rd way to Incanrate power might come form the Battallion destroying the Well, which could cause our powers to dip for a bit until we find the new path.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I have no problem with this dynamic as some villains are powerful enough to take on a whole team, but as the mission where you fight your clones, a team of 8 can have a good fight against 8 costumed NPCs. All I am saying is that, like the option to select your mission difficulties, this should be an option as well.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That can be difficult when team sizes can be between 1-8 - there could only be one "real" costumed villain for us to fight, and 1-7 "fillers", depending on the team size.
For example, when we fight Protean on Jenni Adiar's arc, the game adds "filler" 5th Column with him, based on the size of the team - having more or fewer of them with him doesn't really change the story, because it's all about fighting him. But if there were costumed villains instead of the 5th Column, then they'd have to be very generic, and not have any impact on the story, as there's no guarantee they'd all always be there if the team wasn't a full 8. It works fine on, say, the KTF, where we fight 5 AVs in the final room, because there's a minimum team size, so the game knows there'll always be a certain number of heroes in that battle, so the story can be written to include all 5 AVs - but that can't be done very easily for normal story arcs, because every story arc needs to be soloable, so the game can only ever calculate encounters from the idea that there might only be one hero doing the arc. Like with the Protean fight, the game has to make it Protean plus x number of 5th Column because it has to balance it with there being 1-8 heroes - it can't make it, say, Protean, plus Vandal, Nosferatu and Requiem, because there's no guarnatee that there'll be at least 4 heroes on the team - which means it'd have to remove one or more of the named bosses if the team was smaller than 4, meaning that those named bosses couldn't be written into the story, just in case the team wasn't large enough to spawn them, which would totally remove the impact of going up against a group of individual costumed villains. All normal story arc boss encounters are based around 1 named boss plus x number of goons vs 1 hero plus 1-7 friends, which gives total flexibility for team sizes, with zero impact on the story. |
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Golly gee I really really hope they don't do this. What I am tired of is working to get powers only to have those powers not available or reduced with the last centuries standard Super Hero plot device of "reduced" powers. Blah dev weaksauce not desired.
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Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
Well, not necessarily to that level, but possibly keeping the level shift *whilst* getting reduced to 3/4 - 1/2 "Incarnate" power effectiveness
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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The clones are easy because they have no personality or motivation - costumed villains have their own personalities and motivations, and they need to show them, otherwise they just become normal goons.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I have no problem with this dynamic as some villains are powerful enough to take on a whole team, but as the mission where you fight your clones, a team of 8 can have a good fight against 8 costumed NPCs. All I am saying is that, like the option to select your mission difficulties, this should be an option as well.
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In the Protean example I mentioned, Vandal, Nosferatu and Requiem have their own personalities and motivations, so those would need to be written into the story arc - there needs to be a reason why they're there, and they need to express themselves, even if it's only with 1 or 2 text bubbles.
But because they'd have to be written into the story, that means they'd have to be there in the end fight, which wouldn't work if were are less than 4 heroes running the arc.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yes. NPC heroes and villains would have to have some back story, but just like Mayhem and Safeguard missions, they really don't need more of a reason to be in a mission than to interject themselves, particularly in regular paper and tip missions.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The clones are easy because they have no personality or motivation - costumed villains have their own personalities and motivations, and they need to show them, otherwise they just become normal goons.
In the Protean example I mentioned, Vandal, Nosferatu and Requiem have their own personalities and motivations, so those would need to be written into the story arc - there needs to be a reason why they're there, and they need to express themselves, even if it's only with 1 or 2 text bubbles. But because they'd have to be written into the story, that means they'd have to be there in the end fight, which wouldn't work if were are less than 4 heroes running the arc. |
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Safeguards and Radios are more generic - they're focused on action rather than stories - and even then, they're still based on 1 hero vs 1 costumed villain - and the Tip missions are much more story driven.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Yes. NPC heroes and villains would have to have some back story, but just like Mayhem and Safeguard missions, they really don't need more of a reason to be in a mission than to interject themselves, particularly in regular paper and tip missions.
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Having a flexible number of costumed villains also causes problems for soloers, as it means that they can't experience the full mission unless they're on a team of 8 to spawn all 8 costumed villains.
Roght now, the system is set up so that everyone can have exactly the same story experience, apart from the number of faceless goons they have to fight - that seems much simpler than a system where teams get bonus unique villains to fight, and a changed storyline.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
only problem with making new stuff to fight, if players view them as too tough or gimmicky, they will be avoided.
Notice how Freakshow went from everyone's favorite punching bags to one of those well...not so fun end draining groups. All that was done was adding the Super Stunner with its auto hit big end drain rez. Now, its possible to game that since SS xp via rez is the same and fewer people nearby means less health. So the trick is to have one person stand in range.
FW added anti-Stalker apparitions. Not only are the intitial forms worth 0 XP, it completely removes the ability for the stalker to get that first surprise strike in. Moral, I'll never run a stalker in FW.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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Well you bring up an interesting point that those writing story arcs for others to play must deal with for sure.|
Originally Posted by newchemicals
only problem with making new stuff to fight, if players view them as too tough or gimmicky, they will be avoided.
Notice how Freakshow went from everyone's favorite punching bags to one of those well...not so fun end draining groups. All that was done was adding the Super Stunner with its auto hit big end drain rez. Now, its possible to game that since SS xp via rez is the same and fewer people nearby means less health. So the trick is to have one person stand in range. FW added anti-Stalker apparitions. Not only are the intitial forms worth 0 XP, it completely removes the ability for the stalker to get that first surprise strike in. Moral, I'll never run a stalker in FW. |
What I am talking about is making an enemy group that you or your friends design and trade with you. You can then just pop them into a standard mission map like the BM map, set your levels and go to town having fun smashing up a different enemy group.
These options are only limited by the powersets provided and the imagination of you and your friends'. I have even on occasion come across other players arcs where upon me contacting them we traded some customs.
As a long time mission builder for games in the past couple of decades and a lover of cartoon heroes since the sixties, I have no shortage of ideas.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
The other day, I was feeling pretty burned out. I'd gotten my Bots/Traps Mastermind from around 29 to around 39 almost exclusively solo, and I was feeling like playing another character, or possibly even another game altogether. The same routine of Seeker Drones -> Attack Move -> Acid Mortar -> Poison Gas Trap was wearing a bit thin on me, and even aggroing massive spawns didn't really help. But then I hit level 40 and I figured... You know what? I want to fight the Paraetorian Clockwork. I want to fight the IDF. I want to fight Malta. It wasn't until I spoke with Nuclear Toast (who knows my concept for this Mastermind) that I could put into words why I did. "You want to prove the Rook is the better scientist?" he asked, and answer was "Yes. Superior tech, superior tactics, superior weapons." That right there removed any sense of burnout I had before and made me fired up about the game all over again.
However, while concept might have been a big part, I realise that what was a much bigger part is that most of these that I mention are purely 40+ enemy groups, and groups that I haven't fought in quite a while. Ever since I returned to the Rook, he's been fighting Crey, Rikti, Council and Devouring Earth almost exclusively, and while they're fun... They're fun for only so long. Eventually, I need new stuff to fight, even if that stuff really doesn't fight all that differently from the old stuff. I'm starting to understand why people are always so eager to fight the Spetznaz or the Civic Squad or any of the rarer enemy groups, just because they mix things up when you meet them.
But, of course, that's just me. What about you? Do you prefer to have new stuff to fight more frequently, or is it enough that you can switch to a different character and fight the old stuff in a new way? Or do you simply not care about what you fight?