In Regards to Incarnate Trials...
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-21 22:33 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Yeah good luck with that, posting an end to the complaints in a thread. I agree that a lot of ATs are more useful in some trials than others (and Tankers, even with middle of the road builds, seen very valuable in all but lam/baf but those are cake nowadays).
In the end, people who wanna run the harder trials will run them and accept whoever's willing to. On Freedom there are plenty of 'lvl 50+X lf anything but BAF/Lambda'. It's actually real easy to form a Keyes or MoM over there, I did an UG tonight and it wasn't even on 'prime time'.
My only complaint about the content is all the stuff you have to do to get the t4. I'm okay with the t3 stuff, but getting t4 and having to craft all the common/uncommon/rare twice to make each t4 especially with the incoming slots and many toons to incarnate gets kinda boring, one of the reasons people run 10-minute LAM and BAFs.
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Originally Posted by Vauluur
...stop whining. Boo hoo, the game actually has a challenge in it and you have to think and react to succeed. My response to a few common complaints:
1.) Tanks (or other melee AT is useless) - Sure, you die more often because there is some unresistable damage. That in no way makes you useless or relegates you to having Blaster level survivability. The unresistable damage devastates other ATs more than you for a number of reasons: you have more HP, you are mitigating all the other incoming damage more effectively, and you have more tools to recover from that damage in general. The trials, if they change the need for Tanks at all, make them more desirable. At least with a TF a non-conventional tank could handle the aggro. That's not really true with the trials. 2.) I die too much. - Why do you care how much you are dying? Debt, if it can even be considered to have meaning in CoH anymore, certainly has none once you have hit the level cap. If anything, you should be happy that you can finally get those debt badges you probably don't have. 3.) Too much to do with Well of the Furies and Praetoria - I can understand, to an extent, being a little upset that you have to be tied by game lore into having a connection to the Well. But here's the thing: you don't. If you care enough about your backstory to be upset that you are suddenly tied to the well, you are probably more than capable of thinking up an alternate explanation for your improved powers. Praetoria happens to be the center of the currently unfolding story for the game. Remember how there was the Rikti War? Well, this is the new that. It's a pretty big deal. If you have been paying attention at all to the story, you'd know it won't be focused on Praetoria much longer anyway. Bottom line: we finally have an end-game system that is more complex and entertaining than any other MMO. We actually have to take everything we learned in levels 1-50 and apply it, mixing in effective teamwork, to succeed. Our characters are no longer second fiddle to the Freedom Phalanx and Arachnos. We are now the center of the story. And with all of that, we are getting powers above and beyond anything we could have hoped to have before. Please stop complaining about it. If you are wondering why I'm posting this here, it's because most of the more common complaints I see revolve around "my <insert AT here> is screwed over in iTrials" and I would like to put a stop to that notion in this thread. |
1. the trials aren't hard. Baf and Lam 20 minutes?
2. Insta-death gimmicks that may get you killed due to lag spikes or a slower computer - isn't HARD.
3. Farming the same trials repeatedly to get powers you can only use to farm MORE trials = fail. That is the intention I would imagine at some point because the Incarnate powers and level shift where you are fighting -1's in TFs is silly.
You obviously LIKE running those very hard 20 minute farms. Rolls eyes.
Hear hear! And I quite like the insta-death gimmicks and timed objectives - they reward situational awareness, quick reflexes and and a knowledgeable and well-prepared player. Still wish they'd kept the Keyes pulse at 50% which was more reasonable, now it doesn't even do enough damage to outdamage base regen rate.
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1. Since when were BAF and LAM the only trials? We've had quite a few more added since that time.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
1. the trials aren't hard. Baf and Lam 20 minutes?
2. Insta-death gimmicks that may get you killed due to lag spikes or a slower computer - isn't HARD. 3. Farming the same trials repeatedly to get powers you can only use to farm MORE trials = fail. That is the intention I would imagine at some point because the Incarnate powers and level shift where you are fighting -1's in TFs is silly. You obviously LIKE running those very hard 20 minute farms. Rolls eyes. |
2. To the contrary, it does make it more challenging. They are far more likely to get you killed due to not paying attention than due to lag spikes. If you have a computer that can't respond while playing CoH then either your settings are too high or it's time for an upgrade. CoH manages to look great without being all that resource intensive. I used to play it with performance settings on my netbook.
3. You hardly have to farm them to get anything except perhaps t4. But even that has become easier with the change to the UG rewards table. And the only thing that doesn't carry to outside the trials (and the upcoming Dark Astoria revamp I assume) is the incarnate shifts. If you'd prefer to not have your interface, destiny, judgment, and lore powers outside the trials then I think you're probably insane and/or trolling.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
I have zero interest in these trials. I am not trolling but thanks for the personal attack.
I keep hearing that things are HARD when you add an insta-kill aspect. That doesn't equate with hard. Look I worked with teams to develop the first Hamidon raids that succeeded without a bunch of Rads.
That was Hard. It took months to design the strategy and learn what Hamidon did - what the Mito's were and how to defeat them. Now it is a given but back then no one knew. We made monster teams to stop the giants that stumbled in, made healing shields, had designated rezzors, sniping pools and so on all organized and orchestrated.
So your idea of hard and mine aren't the same. Cleverly designed foes like the Captain in the 3rd Who Will Die - where you destroy his buffing and then activate the guns for yourself - are fun.
Pools of death on the ground whether blue, pink or chartreuse not so much.
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Exactly.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
So your idea of hard and mine aren't the same. Cleverly designed foes like the Captain in the 3rd Who Will Die - where you destroy his buffing and then activate the guns for yourself - are fun.
Pools of death on the ground whether blue, pink or chartreuse not so much. |
Moreover, with all the ground-effect powers out there, it's ridiculous.
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Its on purpose. I was saying in the other thread that there appears to be some kind of extra rooting effect being applied. Now the patches magically appear under you randomly, root you, grow and then DOT pulse you to death so even after leaving it you get a full dose or two of death DOT.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Exactly.
Moreover, with all the ground-effect powers out there, it's ridiculous. |
There is nothing hard about a failed gimmick mechanic that is broken.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I'm really not sure what all the fuss is about. If you're on a team of experienced players who are willing to pay attention and work as a team, the latest trials are no harder than Keyes or UG. But if your idea of fun is standing in one spot and button mashing aoe's until you inevitably win, then you're probably not going to enjoy these new trials.
The mechanics of the TPN and MoM are pretty straightforward, and if you pay attention to your screen you'll even notice a timer for when the pink patches of doom are about to drop. If you can't develop a strategy to deal with that, well, maybe you should yourself find a nice farm, stand in one spot, and aoe until you inevitably win. What a fun and rewarding challenge that must be.
I think that the unresistable damage is pretty annoying and I think that it would be best if they simply used exotic damage types (toxic, psi, etc) combined with the higher hit chance of Incarnate enemies I think that would be a more reasonable way to do it.... Either that or giving tanks inherent resistance to otherwise "unresistable" attacks making them more desirable and somewhat alleviating how favored Brutes are for high end content.
Overall though, I really do like the trials. I think they're fast paced and fun and the structures are much more interesting than everything else in the game. I would much rather do an Incarnate trial with engaging mechanics than do a task force that required me to "go to mission, defeat boss, find glowie, defeat 10 enemies, repeat" for an hour or more.
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This kind of elitist condescending response to legitimate concerns is part of the disconnect that has been mentioned.
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Originally Posted by Fugacity
I'm really not sure what all the fuss is about. If you're on a team of experienced players who are willing to pay attention and work as a team, the latest trials are no harder than Keyes or UG. But if your idea of fun is standing in one spot and button mashing aoe's until you inevitably win, then you're probably not going to enjoy these new trials.
The mechanics of the TPN and MoM are pretty straightforward, and if you pay attention to your screen you'll even notice a timer for when the pink patches of doom are about to drop. If you can't develop a strategy to deal with that, well, maybe you should yourself find a nice farm, stand in one spot, and aoe until you inevitably win. What a fun and rewarding challenge that must be. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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That too. But what I'm talking about are all the powers players have that essentially wash out all but the craziest, most obvious displays.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Its on purpose. I was saying in the other thread that there appears to be some kind of extra rooting effect being applied. Now the patches magically appear under you randomly, root you, grow and then DOT pulse you to death so even after leaving it you get a full dose or two of death DOT.
There is nothing hard about a failed gimmick mechanic that is broken. |
So the answer to being able to see the crap is to...turn our powers off?
I like the idea of being more powerful. Great. Fine and wonderful.
But not at the expense of having all my other abilities become utterly meaningless.
At this point, several trials are now "if you don't bring X, Y, and Z, you fail".
**** that noise.
I already detest endlessly grinding trials. Now I have to endlessly grind them just to eventually build the "right" stuff to complete it successfully? Or be a leech on everyone else? Yeah...
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As has already been said, these trials aren't "hard". They're binary. Bring the prescribed X, Y and Z and you're fine. Don't and you fail.|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
I'm really not sure what all the fuss is about. If you're on a team of experienced players who are willing to pay attention and work as a team, the latest trials are no harder than Keyes or UG. But if your idea of fun is standing in one spot and button mashing aoe's until you inevitably win, then you're probably not going to enjoy these new trials.
The mechanics of the TPN and MoM are pretty straightforward, and if you pay attention to your screen you'll even notice a timer for when the pink patches of doom are about to drop. If you can't develop a strategy to deal with that, well, maybe you should yourself find a nice farm, stand in one spot, and aoe until you inevitably win. What a fun and rewarding challenge that must be. |
Why don't we just run down a straight hall and beat up everything in the way. Then we win when we get to the end with our holy trinity of Healer, DPS and Tank?
Fit that cookie-cutter baby!
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If all the badges for UG, TPN, and MoM were optional rewards for soloing Hamidon without dying I'd work on that, one successful attempt per badge, as many times as it took, until I had them all, even if it took a year of effort.|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
I'm really not sure what all the fuss is about. If you're on a team of experienced players who are willing to pay attention and work as a team, the latest trials are no harder than Keyes or UG. But if your idea of fun is standing in one spot and button mashing aoe's until you inevitably win, then you're probably not going to enjoy these new trials.
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That's what I think about the "difficulty" of the latter trials personally.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If all the badges for UG, TPN, and MoM were optional rewards for soloing Hamidon without dying I'd work on that, one successful attempt per badge, as many times as it took, until I had them all, even if it took a year of effort.
That's what I think about the "difficulty" of the latter trials personally. |
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I am really not sure how the dev can fix this. 4 days ago, my game would lag so hard if it's a 24-player team. I still remember one time that I load up in BAF and the first phase is ALREADY over! lol That's how much lag I could get some times. And I know I used to crash a lot in Lam (I have not crashed once for the past 3 weeks!) and it makes Lam more difficult (loss time to get more grenade/acid)|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
2. Insta-death gimmicks that may get you killed due to lag spikes or a slower computer - isn't HARD.
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However, I got an Alienware Aurora for my birthday! Lag? What lag?!! I can play at the highest Ultra setting and I feel no lag at all even on 24-player team with 3 Masterminds! Last night I loaded up 24-player BAF under 7s!
I mean I can totally understand the frustration if the lag is too bad (same reason why people advertised for 16-player BAFs to reduce lag). I guess the only option is to create itrials that require less players?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Has it been mentioned? I can't find any mention of it in this entire thread until just now, so I believe you are mistaken. These trials seem to have made you angry, but you insist that they are not "hard", so I guess you have completed them many times and are just bored with the mechanics of them, then?|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
This kind of elitist condescending response to legitimate concerns is part of the disconnect that has been mentioned.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
As has already been said, these trials aren't "hard".
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Why don't we just run down a straight hall and beat up everything in the way. Then we win when we get to the end with our holy trinity of Healer, DPS and Tank?
Fit that cookie-cutter baby! |
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Originally Posted by Fugacity
If they were "binary" they would by definition consist of only two parts
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
As has already been said, these trials aren't "hard". They're binary. Bring the prescribed X, Y and Z and you're fine. Don't and you fail.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Interesting that of all the other things you could respond to, you chose to respond to that particular comment.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Apparently *I* am not the one who fails to understand binary.
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You make no claim that you have completed the trials numerous times to verify the fact that they are not "hard".
You make no argument against the fact that the trials don't require any particular team or league make-up.
Instead, you defend the definition of binary.
Thank you sir, for discrediting yourself further.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
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So you are arguing that there are elitists, who expect people to pay attention to their screen and actually move their characters from time to time, and non-elitists. I assume that non-elitists drool on their keyboard and mash buttons while complaining that everyone else on the league needs to get better?
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
This kind of elitist condescending response to legitimate concerns is part of the disconnect that has been mentioned.
|
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
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I pvp, that's hard specially on a squishy. Insta death patches that appear out of no where and kill you are not only annoying but they are not fun and not hard. It's cheating and if you think cheating is hard well I don't have anything more to say to you.|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
I'm really not sure what all the fuss is about. If you're on a team of experienced players who are willing to pay attention and work as a team, the latest trials are no harder than Keyes or UG. But if your idea of fun is standing in one spot and button mashing aoe's until you inevitably win, then you're probably not going to enjoy these new trials.
The mechanics of the TPN and MoM are pretty straightforward, and if you pay attention to your screen you'll even notice a timer for when the pink patches of doom are about to drop. If you can't develop a strategy to deal with that, well, maybe you should yourself find a nice farm, stand in one spot, and aoe until you inevitably win. What a fun and rewarding challenge that must be. |
The incarnate trials i was really excited for them.
I play games like Megaman 9 that's hard. What the devs made are a waste of resources and inability to think up actual challenges so instead we are left with lame *** Maelstrom whom I've smoked dozens of times in the past 1 shotting anyone he feels like.
edit: Devs get back to real challenges like Lord recluse and his buffing towers. Or the mini hami in Lady grey TF. Or rezzing of romulus with his nictus followed by ambushes. These were solid challenges when they were released, obviously much easier now but still really good when they first released.
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So, what you are saying is that understanding the unique challenges of a situation, developing a strategy to deal with them, and implementing that strategy is fun.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I have zero interest in these trials. I am not trolling but thanks for the personal attack.
I keep hearing that things are HARD when you add an insta-kill aspect. That doesn't equate with hard. Look I worked with teams to develop the first Hamidon raids that succeeded without a bunch of Rads. That was Hard. It took months to design the strategy and learn what Hamidon did - what the Mito's were and how to defeat them. Now it is a given but back then no one knew. We made monster teams to stop the giants that stumbled in, made healing shields, had designated rezzors, sniping pools and so on all organized and orchestrated. So your idea of hard and mine aren't the same. Cleverly designed foes like the Captain in the 3rd Who Will Die - where you destroy his buffing and then activate the guns for yourself - are fun. Pools of death on the ground whether blue, pink or chartreuse not so much. |
How is it that avoiding damage patches on the ground while managing adds and taking out an AV is not essentially the same as the scenario of Hamidon? Hamidon even has unresistable damage that you have to worry about. I don't see Tankers complaining about that and wanting inherent resistance to it. What's the difference?
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
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PvP can hardly be used as a measure of anything else in this game. It's a broken system that is the legacy of an old dev team.|
Originally Posted by Lucky666
I pvp, that's hard specially on a squishy. Insta death patches that appear out of no where and kill you are not only annoying but they are not fun and not hard. It's cheating and if you think cheating is hard well I don't have anything more to say to you.
The incarnate trials i was really excited for them. I play games like Megaman 9 that's hard. What the devs made are a waste of resources and inability to think up actual challenges so instead we are left with lame *** Maelstrom whom I've smoked dozens of times in the past 1 shotting anyone he feels like. |
The patches are hardly cheating. They use a system that was coded into the game and has been in place and been used for several other encounters in the past. Most notably the Hamidon. The fact of the matter is that not a lot of people would die at all if there wasn't some source of extreme damage they needed to watch for in high level content. By that point in the game, everyone is loaded up with insane amounts of buffs and survival tools. Something had to be done to threaten us. If you would like to suggest an "actual challenge" then I'd be happy to hear it. Especially since you appear to think it's so easy to do that.
Also, the patches aren't exactly insta-death. You can move and use an inspiration or self-heal. Then you survive. The patches may have killed me like twice once I knew to watch for them.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
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As opposed to what? The poorly veiled "LRN2PLAY" that is asking me "How much have you done this?"|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
Interesting that of all the other things you could respond to, you chose to respond to that particular comment.
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Suffice it to say I have done these trials. I've done them enough to know I don't really want to do them anymore. ANY of them. Maybe once in a blue moon, when I'm drunk and belligerent or something.
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| You make no claim that you have completed the trials numerous times to verify the fact that they are not "hard". |
If I have, then it's "You just suck. Learn to play. You don't know what you're talking about."
Why even get into it?
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| Thank you sir, for discrediting yourself further. |
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Sorry, but his original post is simply a lousy "LRN2PLAY". Nothing more.|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
So you are arguing that there are elitists, who expect people to pay attention to their screen and actually move their characters from time to time, and non-elitists. I assume that non-elitists drool on their keyboard and mash buttons while complaining that everyone else on the league needs to get better?
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He's presuming HE is a font of wisdom when it comes to playing the game and the people who disagree with him are imbeciles who don't know how.
That's pretty much the textbook for elitism.
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...stop whining. Boo hoo, the game actually has a challenge in it and you have to think and react to succeed. My response to a few common complaints:
1.) Tanks (or other melee AT is useless) - Sure, you die more often because there is some unresistable damage. That in no way makes you useless or relegates you to having Blaster level survivability. The unresistable damage devastates other ATs more than you for a number of reasons: you have more HP, you are mitigating all the other incoming damage more effectively, and you have more tools to recover from that damage in general. The trials, if they change the need for Tanks at all, make them more desirable. At least with a TF a non-conventional tank could handle the aggro. That's not really true with the trials.
2.) I die too much. - Why do you care how much you are dying? Debt, if it can even be considered to have meaning in CoH anymore, certainly has none once you have hit the level cap. If anything, you should be happy that you can finally get those debt badges you probably don't have.
3.) Too much to do with Well of the Furies and Praetoria - I can understand, to an extent, being a little upset that you have to be tied by game lore into having a connection to the Well. But here's the thing: you don't. If you care enough about your backstory to be upset that you are suddenly tied to the well, you are probably more than capable of thinking up an alternate explanation for your improved powers. Praetoria happens to be the center of the currently unfolding story for the game. Remember how there was the Rikti War? Well, this is the new that. It's a pretty big deal. If you have been paying attention at all to the story, you'd know it won't be focused on Praetoria much longer anyway.
Bottom line: we finally have an end-game system that is more complex and entertaining than any other MMO. We actually have to take everything we learned in levels 1-50 and apply it, mixing in effective teamwork, to succeed. Our characters are no longer second fiddle to the Freedom Phalanx and Arachnos. We are now the center of the story. And with all of that, we are getting powers above and beyond anything we could have hoped to have before. Please stop complaining about it.
If you are wondering why I'm posting this here, it's because most of the more common complaints I see revolve around "my <insert AT here> is screwed over in iTrials" and I would like to put a stop to that notion in this thread.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian