In Regards to Incarnate Trials...
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-21 22:33 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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One thing I noticed on MoM the other day...was playing my dark armour scrapper. During teh Penny storm mission, I looked at my combat logs to see..|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I think that the unresistable damage is pretty annoying and I think that it would be best if they simply used exotic damage types (toxic, psi, etc) combined with the higher hit chance of Incarnate enemies I think that would be a more reasonable way to do it.... Either that or giving tanks inherent resistance to otherwise "unresistable" attacks making them more desirable and somewhat alleviating how favored Brutes are for high end content.
Overall though, I really do like the trials. I think they're fast paced and fun and the structures are much more interesting than everything else in the game. I would much rather do an Incarnate trial with engaging mechanics than do a task force that required me to "go to mission, defeat boss, find glowie, defeat 10 enemies, repeat" for an hour or more. |
You take XXX resistable psionic damage from XXX
You take XXX defensible psionic damage from XXX
You take XXX annihlation damage from XXX
I would assume that the damage, from that bit at least, is further broken down into portions we can resist, dodge, or will always hit and do full damage. Also noticed I could stand in teh purple patches longer on a DA.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If all the badges for UG, TPN, and MoM were optional rewards for soloing Hamidon without dying I'd work on that, one successful attempt per badge, as many times as it took, until I had them all, even if it took a year of effort.
That's what I think about the "difficulty" of the latter trials personally. |
What? The badges in all three of the new trials are pretty much rewarded for paying attention and understanding how the trials work. Keyes and Lambda badges are way more finicky and difficult, imo. The newer ones can and have been gotten for many people by accident on PUG's.
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Yes, its been mentioned(about elitists) in game and here in various threads in the forum.|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
Has it been mentioned? I can't find any mention of it in this entire thread until just now, so I believe you are mistaken. These trials seem to have made you angry, but you insist that they are not "hard", so I guess you have completed them many times and are just bored with the mechanics of them, then?
Yet another who claims that these trials aren't "hard", so if that's true then how many times have you completed them? I'm just wondering, as you have obviously mastered them to the point of being able to label them one way or the other. I've completed both TPN and MoM half a dozen times or more each with the teams having no "set" group of AT's. There are a few AT's you can bring that will make things easier, but you don't have to have anything like your "holy trinity" to complete the trials. |
Yes, I have completed all of the incarnate trials, but no on all of my toons save the BAF and LAM.
The trials have not made me angry at all nice try though., The reality is most of the gimmicks need to hit the road period.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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No, that is not what I wrote, but I see you like to rewrite what people have said and act upon that instead of what they actually said. Have at it mate.
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Originally Posted by Vauluur
So you are arguing that there are elitists, who expect people to pay attention to their screen and actually move their characters from time to time, and non-elitists. I assume that non-elitists drool on their keyboard and mash buttons while complaining that everyone else on the league needs to get better?
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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/suppressCloseFxDist <feet>|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
That too. But what I'm talking about are all the powers players have that essentially wash out all but the craziest, most obvious displays.
So the answer to being able to see the crap is to...turn our powers off? I like the idea of being more powerful. Great. Fine and wonderful. But not at the expense of having all my other abilities become utterly meaningless. |
Set <feet> to a large number. Now you can use the 'suppress fx when close' option in the graphics settings to hide the effects of your toggle powers so you can see what is happening.
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| At this point, several trials are now "if you don't bring X, Y, and Z, you fail". |
X = A leader who understands the trial
Y = Players who can pay attention and follow instructions
Z = inspirations, type varies depending on the trial (greens for Keyes, pinks for UG, etc.)
Here's another acronym for you: ROI.
Return on Investment. Building these trials isn't free. If people are ignoring them to the point that the developers start asking why they're not popular, any arguments about how players should rise to the challenge fall by the wayside. Maybe would the trials would be better if we had more players who wanted that type of content, but if we don't have those players, calling them names really misses the point.
That's why threads like this one are pretty much worthless. If you want to say you enjoy the trials, go for it. But whining about other players not wanting to play the trials is a waste of everyone's time, like being upset that not enough people watch One Tree Hill or take Pokemon seriously.
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The problem I'm seeing from those who have stated a dislike for the current iTrials is that they are "not hard" because they rely on "gimmicks", and that they are "binary". Those complaining give no advice on making more interesting trials that are gimmick-free, challenging, or "hard", instead they state that are taking their ball and are going home unless trials are made to their unspecified specifications. The only requested changes they make rely on different "gimmicks", LR's towers, Nictus from ITF, etc. A gimmick by any other name is still a gimmick, albeit the ones mentioned as being superior are so familiar that they can be button-mashed until the inevitable win.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Here's another acronym for you: ROI.
Return on Investment. Building these trials isn't free. If people are ignoring them to the point that the developers start asking why they're not popular, any arguments about how players should rise to the challenge fall by the wayside. Maybe would the trials would be better if we had more players who wanted that type of content, but if we don't have those players, calling them names really misses the point. |
Yes, the trials are binary, in the same sense that everything in this game is binary, win or lose, complete it or don't. For anyone wishing to do something that is not binary, I have suggested the button mashing farm, carefully designed to offer little to no chance of losing and all the rewards you can carry. The return on investment doesn't get much better than AE farming. Yet, for merely pointing out this truth I have been called elitist and raised one person's blood pressure so much that I fear he has caught a case of the vapors.
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Spot On mate.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Here's another acronym for you: ROI.
Return on Investment. Building these trials isn't free. If people are ignoring them to the point that the developers start asking why they're not popular, any arguments about how players should rise to the challenge fall by the wayside. Maybe would the trials would be better if we had more players who wanted that type of content, but if we don't have those players, calling them names really misses the point. That's why threads like this one are pretty much worthless. If you want to say you enjoy the trials, go for it. But whining about other players not wanting to play the trials is a waste of everyone's time, like being upset that not enough people watch One Tree Hill or take Pokemon seriously. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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This. I agree with this to an incredible degree. This thread has been another example. Rather than people who don't like trials actually stating how trials can be made better, they just whine about gimmicks and call people that enjoy them elitist.
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Originally Posted by Fugacity
The problem I'm seeing from those who have stated a dislike for the current iTrials is that they are "not hard" because they rely on "gimmicks", and that they are "binary". Those complaining give no advice on making more interesting trials that are gimmick-free, challenging, or "hard", instead they state that are taking their ball and are going home unless trials are made to their unspecified specifications. The only requested changes they make rely on different "gimmicks", LR's towers, Nictus from ITF, etc. A gimmick by any other name is still a gimmick, albeit the ones mentioned as being superior are so familiar that they can be button-mashed until the inevitable win.
Yes, the trials are binary, in the same sense that everything in this game is binary, win or lose, complete it or don't. For anyone wishing to do something that is not binary, I have suggested the button mashing farm, carefully designed to offer little to no chance of losing and all the rewards you can carry. The return on investment doesn't get much better than AE farming. Yet, for merely pointing out this truth I have been called elitist and raised one person's blood pressure so much that I fear he has caught a case of the vapors. |
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
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Okay then - How about giving Patron/Ancillary Shields (along with Tough) the PVP treatment, so I don't get smacked for 900 damage because I didn't side swap with my Controller for Mu Mastery?
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Originally Posted by Vauluur
This. I agree with this to an incredible degree. This thread has been another example. Rather than people who don't like trials actually stating how trials can be made better, they just whine about gimmicks and call people that enjoy them elitist.
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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I see no one calling those who enjoy iTrials elitist. I see several calling those who claim that anyone who doesn't like iTrials incapable of playing elitist. I think they're rather justified.
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Originally Posted by Vauluur
This. I agree with this to an incredible degree. This thread has been another example. Rather than people who don't like trials actually stating how trials can be made better, they just whine about gimmicks and call people that enjoy them elitist.
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We'll always have Paragon.
I always laugh when people cry that "learn to play" isn't a valid argument for a challenge which people complete on a regular basis with little to only moderate trouble.
Anyway, regarding the it's-not-actually-hard-even-though-it-kills-people-on-a-regular-basis "gimmicks" people love complaining about, the alternative to make anything challenging for a league of 24 incarnates is to just make AVs with ludicrous resistance, defense, and damage output, somewhere around 95% passive resistance, 120% passive defense, and 4000+ damage Brawls as a baseline and going higher from there. And then it becomes purely mathematical whether you win or not -- enforcing the "holy trinity" style of required ATs/powersets that I'm sure none of us want.
Well, if the trials didn't make every single AV fight little more than an exercise in applying overwhelming force (i.e., damage), then the notion of "challenge" could become more sophisticated. But they do, so they aren't.
I'd love for trials to be strategic/tactical challenges rather than just matters of how to get all of the league's damage potential onto the AV without everyone dying every 10 seconds. All those "gimmicks" are really nothing more than the devs' way of keeping toons from contributing damage. Either you have to step away, or stop attacking, or go find shelter, or wait for the unresistable hold to end, etc., all of which does nothing more than modulate the damage hitting the AV at any given moment. This is about as subtle as a brick to the head.
Make the trials more about the creative and synergistic use of all the different powers in the game and I think you'll find that there are many ways to challenge players without resorting to making every AV like the Hamidon, where "difficulty" is only measured in damage and defense values.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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This is not accurate. The Warwalkers in Underground require attention to be paid in using temp powers, strategic pulling and active object destruction- Same with Marauder to an extent. There's also pulling voids to Penelope during Minds of Mayhem, destroying AM's terminals during Keyes... The trials certainly don't reward mindless Scrapperlock. Heck, during the beginning of MoM you can't even DPS the AV's from melee unless you utilize your taunts proactively and remain mindful of your environment. If you're just talking about BAF, that'd be one thing. During most of the trials, there are many mechanics to be mindful of which require you to back off or otherwise position yourselves correctly during AV fights or you risk league wipes.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Well, if the trials didn't make every single AV fight little more than an exercise in applying overwhelming force (i.e., damage), then the notion of "challenge" could become more sophisticated. But they do, so they aren't.
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The only one I really hate the badge requirements for are Keyes, because one person can so easily mess it up for everyone.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
What? The badges in all three of the new trials are pretty much rewarded for paying attention and understanding how the trials work. Keyes and Lambda badges are way more finicky and difficult, imo. The newer ones can and have been gotten for many people by accident on PUG's.
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That's true to some extent for a number of badges, including the "classic" Master of Badges, but the Keyes version seems much more fragile than just "don't die". The Bombs badge in Underground suffers a little bit from this, but mostly people who fail this for leagues that are really trying to get it are the sort who refuse to listen to instruction. The only other iTrial badge I have a dislike for is the "collect 'em all" badge for the MoM trial, because it's just random and repetitive. I much prefer the badges that take some sort of good play.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yeah I agree, the Keyes badges are very tedious (and same for Lambda, just because you need to run it three times to get them all.) I think the Devs really want to encourage re-playability for the trials and the Lambda badges and the MoM Nightmares badge serve to encourage people to run the new end game content more. For MoM I think the incentive is nice but for Lambda I just don't think it's an issue. I would like to see those badges changed so they can all be picked up in one run.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
The only one I really hate the badge requirements for are Keyes, because one person can so easily mess it up for everyone.
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Originally Posted by Vice_Virtuoso
I always laugh when people cry that "learn to play" isn't a valid argument for a challenge which people complete on a regular basis with little to only moderate trouble.
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The argument that the trials will be fine once this game recruits better or more hardcore players is pretty much dead in the water. Let me remind you once again that it was the developers, not the players, who were prepared to nerf rewards in some trials because others weren't being run enough. To their credit, they abandoned this plan, but the idea that this all started because of some vocal complainers is making facts up out of whole cloth. This started for business reasons. Customers are not consuming what they were expected to. You may think those customers are whiners; they probably just think you have bad taste in game mechanics.
Furthermore, frankly, I care as much about what some people can do in an UG trial as I do about people who reached max level Cooking skill in The Sims Online. In my experience, both mini games suck to play, so what anyone is able to do or not do is completely beside the point.
As for folks not supplying ways to make the trials better, there are over 100 pages of material posted in the Feedback forum about trials. I also started a thread about the positive things about iTrials we'd like to see again, which disappeared within 2 days, due too much agreement and a lack of fighting.
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Originally Posted by Vauluur
This. I agree with this to an incredible degree. This thread has been another example. Rather than people who don't like trials actually stating how trials can be made better, they just whine about gimmicks and call people that enjoy them elitist.
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Poppicock.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I don't really see what the distinction between "hard", "gimmicky" and "cheating" is that everyone keeps talking about... examples to follow:
Hamidon: is Hami cheating because of high unresistible damage? or is it hard because of the -heal aura? are the mitos just gimmicks?
LRSF: fighting the FP in the future, while constantly phasing in and out of reality. in my book, that's definitely a case for all three.
STF: it has been mentioned in this thread that Recluse's towers are a good example of "hard, but not cheating or gimmicky". I don't really see the difference, however.
The list goes on, but as of now, I feel as though all of the "gimmicky, cheating, [but not?] hard" tricks in the iTrials are quite in line with the tricks of previous lvl50 content.
I'd even argue it's easier, since we now have floating text and cutscene dialogue [once you enable it] telling us how to beat the tricks now
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Balderdash.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Poppicock.
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Horsepucky.
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Originally Posted by Fugacity
Balderdash.
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I expect many people will stop reading shortly after that part, like I did.
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Originally Posted by Vauluur
...stop whining. Boo hoo
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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You can't see the forest for the trees...|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
Rather than people who don't like trials actually stating how trials can be made better, they just whine about gimmicks and call people that enjoy them elitist.
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In this case, the tree for you is you're personal enjoyment of the trials, you see nothing wrong, so you gloss over the facts.
The forest in this case is the fact that there have been numerous threads and posts on how to improve the trials. You just don't read those because you don't think they need improving.
Nobody is going to do that here however, as the condenscending tone of your OP forces everyone to instead focus on trying to explain what they don't like.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it doesn't really matter where these sorts of gimmicks appear, be it TFs or iTrials, they are weak sauce game design elements just the same. A lazy way of delivering a challenge no matter which part of the content they affect.|
Originally Posted by Zeh_Masteh
I don't really see what the distinction between "hard", "gimmicky" and "cheating" is that everyone keeps talking about... examples to follow:
Hamidon: is Hami cheating because of high unresistible damage? or is it hard because of the -heal aura? are the mitos just gimmicks? LRSF: fighting the FP in the future, while constantly phasing in and out of reality. in my book, that's definitely a case for all three. STF: it has been mentioned in this thread that Recluse's towers are a good example of "hard, but not cheating or gimmicky". I don't really see the difference, however. The list goes on, but as of now, I feel as though all of the "gimmicky, cheating, [but not?] hard" tricks in the iTrials are quite in line with the tricks of previous lvl50 content. I'd even argue it's easier, since we now have floating text and cutscene dialogue [once you enable it] telling us how to beat the tricks now |
Special text wouldn't be necessary if they didn't resort to lame "tricks" to turn the iTrials into a puzzle-solving exercise reminiscent of a Rubik's Cube. LLR'U'RBL and you can take down Penelope; anything else at that stage and you just end up with a cube more mixed up than when you started (i.e., you lose).
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
Thanks for clarifying!
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