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Yes I do know there are some tools in some secondaries and that's where the problem is. If they somehow improve those tools (fear aura, stun aura, caltrops, confuse), what about those secondaries that don't have, like Super Reflex and Regeneration? How should they buff those?
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Not so. Dark Armor has two mez toggles, EA has a mez Toggle, a sapping power that also gives +defense, Ice Armor has a -damage/slow toggle and a sapping +defense click, and Electric Armor has... well it sort of has a mix with a heal, a +recharge and a Sapping power.
So you do have tools outside of Ninjitsu in your secondaries. Ninjitsu has the lion's share, to be sure. But other secondaries can be played in similar fashion - and ought to be IMHO. Those extra toys aren't just "skippable slots." |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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See my post above this one with regard to Ninjitsu and the other secondaries. Just because you're not counting them doesn't mean they're not there.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
With Stalkers, I tab through and find something that needs to die right away and make it a priority. I then pick the next priority when it drops. Sometimes it's a minion, sometimes it's a boss. Sometimes the team is running smoothly and it's "whatever the reticle lands on first", but even then I usually try to pick up something that can cause issues if left unchecked.
Do you see how this is different from "wade through minions until the boss", "keep the bosses attention while splashing AoE on the minions", or "point to a corner where the bodies end up"? But you can play the same way (ie, fast and strategic elimination of trouble targets) for ANY of the melee ATs; that's not a Stalker thing. You mention tools for distraction... uhm, with the exception of Ninjitsu and Demoralize, the other melee ATs get the same tools and often more - they share secondaries after all. Want to keep an entire spawn unable to act? A Stone Melee/Dark Armor Brute is going to handle that job a little better than a Stalker will. |
And the primaries aren't just giving you demoralize. As I said in the post you're quoting, you've got some for of mitigation or aoe powers at 18 and 26 that often also do high damage to boot. Parry and Divine Avalanche deliver mitigation in spades, the range in impale and focus combines well with the immobilize/knockup to keep an enemy at range just long enough for you to land an attack on that boss. A well-placed stun will do wonders for stalker survivability, and might even just give you the opportunity to placate/AS his buddy, provided you're solo. Speaking of which:
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| Except that Placate sucks offensively unless you use it with Assassin's Strike. There aren't many powers that it helps, and you can trim out all of the Assassin's Strike powers after i22. So basically the bolded part above? Yeah, not really seeing it as helping. |
Or are you saying it sucks because you can't do the scale of damage with a tier 8 power that you can do with Assassin Strike? Because that's even more ridiculous. Assassin Strike is ONE power with ONE function (although it will soon be improved) - so why compare every other power's damage to that?
As it is, when I'm on a team I can use Placate to placate/two-shot that sapper that just beamed the tank for half his endurance. How's that suck?
Just saying something sucks doesn't mean it sucks. Placate has its uses. You just have to - you know - use it for that.
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| Did you read the second sentence in the post you quoted? I specifically asked this powers team about it after the proposed changes were listed. That indicates to me that they have no intention of doing it and that it's off the table. |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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As I said before, I'm of the opinion that SR, Regen and Willpower are there because players that want to pvp might not find Cloak of Fear or Power Sink super-useful in that environment. They are self-contained straight up self-buffing sets that pvp'ers tend to go for. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Yes I do know there are some tools in some secondaries and that's where the problem is. If they somehow improve those tools (fear aura, stun aura, caltrops, confuse), what about those secondaries that don't have, like Super Reflex and Regeneration? How should they buff those?
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Not to say you can't pvp on the other secondaries (especially Ninjitsu) any more than I'm saying that those sets aren't useful for pve - I'm just saying that the preference among pvp'ers seems to be for self-contained self-buffing sets, and that those three cater more to the pvp crowd than the pve.
To be expected on an archetype that gets so much pvp reputation (not to be confused with pvp rep as it is in the game)
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Those tools that you're talking about in primaries and secondaries other than Ninjitsu exist for other ATs, so it's not something unique to Stalkers. So the point about it being "a Stalker thing" are just plain false.
As for worse damage with Placate - try figuring out the DPA of the various attacks. You'll find that you're better off using two attacks in the same animation time in almost every case. Or better yet, check the thread I made which listed the powers whose damage per activation time increased and how much they increased by. If you're using Placate offensively and not using one of the attacks in that thread, your overall damage per second is going down - that's why it sucks offensively, because when used offensively it hurts your damage over time.
And if you want to kill the Sapper, try using Assassin's Strike and then you don't need Placate for that second power activation to kill a minion.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Guys, what do you think is the exact purpose of Placate?
I know I mostly only use it to get a critical hit. The new change Assassin Focus allows us to bypass that so we don't need to use Placate + AS (you can still use Placate + AoE) and suffer a chance to get un-hidden.
Is Placate supposed to be a "defensive" power? What if by using Placate, Stalker gets a small bonus to defense like 5% for 5s? If they give some defensive values in Placate, then there is still a point in using it? What are some good defensive options that can be tied to Placate?
Some ideas I have:
1. Defense buff
2. Tohit debuff (I like this one better I think since we already have ways to get +defense)
3. Damage debuff?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Any archetype can fill any given role in the game. Defenders can tank. Brutes and stalkers can scrap right along with scrappers. Hell, stalkers have access to holds, stuns immobilizes just like controllers and dominators. Does that make controllers any less controllers? Does that mean controllers weren't designed to use holds? Of course not. You know as well as I do that Stalkers don't get containment.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Those tools that you're talking about in primaries and secondaries other than Ninjitsu exist for other ATs, so it's not something unique to Stalkers. So the point about it being "a Stalker thing" are just plain false.
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By the same token other archetypes aren't rewarded for using those powers they have in common to the extent that stalkers are. Controllers's holds and immobilizes let them benefit from the double damage of containment, and stalkers' mitigation powers give them the breathing room to better leverage the double damage from their inherent.
Brutes using stun arent' guaranteeing a full fury bar, and scrappers using cloak of fear aren't going to increase their chance of getting a critical. But a stalker using cloak of fear might just have time to get that placate/attack combo off.
And - again - speaking of which:
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| As for worse damage with Placate - try figuring out the DPA of the various attacks. You'll find that you're better off using two attacks in the same animation time in almost every case. Or better yet, check the thread I made which listed the powers whose damage per activation time increased and how much they increased by. If you're using Placate offensively and not using one of the attacks in that thread, your overall damage per second is going down - that's why it sucks offensively, because when used offensively it hurts your damage over time. |
More to the point, you've indicated a problem with damage falling off by the use of placate, so why aren't you jumping up and down for them to reduce the cast time on placate? If there's a problem with placate being overshadowed by just using another attack then the answer isn't to go ahead and buff the tactic of just using other attacks - it's to buff placate.
Or so I would have thought. Apparently not.
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| And if you want to kill the Sapper, try using Assassin's Strike and then you don't need Placate for that second power activation to kill a minion. |
I get the impression that I'm wasting my breath (I'm reading aloud as I type, so it counts). I don't understand why stalker players keep insisting on changes that turn them into single target stealth scrappers, and I'm no closer to illumination now than when I started this thread.
Have we all just given up on stalkers and are settling for being scrapper wannabes just because we don't want to reroll as scrappers?
Fine. Have no fear, the changes everyone wants will be the changes that come. Heaven knows nothing I say about this or any other archetype ever seems to hold any water. I have what I came for (or as close as I can expect to get), and nothing productive is coming of this discussion. So close the thread - I'm done.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Geeze, calm down. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Fine. Have no fear, the changes everyone wants will be the changes that come. Heaven knows nothing I say about this or any other archetype ever seems to hold any water. I have what I came for (or as close as I can expect to get), and nothing productive is coming of this discussion. So close the thread - I'm done. |
The reason there is a debate about what change should be is that people have different expectations of Stalker AT.
Your ideal Stalker may not be the same as others.
I am a bit neutral when it comes to buffing Stalker. I want better damage for sure (they need to at least match 10/10 melee rating and reduce interruption), and I also don't mind having better debuffs or controls. You have to understand that when people create Stalker, they are not really looking forward to debuff or controls. People want that "burst damage".
Can we get all of them? Nope. I don't think the dev has time for it. What the change will do is to at least make Stalker a real 10/10 Melee Rating and make Stalker better at using burst damage (with the ease of 3 Focuses).
An Assassin is not a real good assassin if it takes 4s or longer (if you count +Placate) to take down a threat. The uninterrupted and shorten animation will allow Stalker to do his job better - Single Target elimination.
I still see a meaningful difference between Stalker and Scrapper (to be honest, all 4 melee ATs are quite similar. What differs them is Powerset combinations). I play my Dominator similar to my Stalker. I constantly search for that one threat that I think should be eliminated/contained first. Sapper, Earth Mage, Guardian Ritki, Night Widow...etc.
Stalker has better ST Damage and better Burst Damage and controllable Critical hit.
Scrapper has better aoe, better survival and more powersets to choose from.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Oh don't get me wrong, Jib - I'm not angry by any stretch. I've just gotten... pretty much what I expected to get.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Geeze, calm down.
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Disappointed? Sure. But I don't have it in me to continue another debate on another archetype that's in the end not going to gain me anything.
I still have my stalkers, and will still be able to utilize my preferred playstyle, I just won't be as effective as the new STrappers (tm) (Single Target scRAPPER, get it?)
And in the end, the stalker community will be quite happy with their characters.
Old school stalkers like me will never die - we'll just fade away.
Or so you'll think...
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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And yet stalkers tend to take Build Up.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Sorry but I hated that reverse fury idea. People do not want to be good some of the time or even most of the time. They want to be good all the time. Just look at what doms with thru. They eventually got buffed to have dominations damage on all the time without perma dom. The reverse fury is going to be like that all over again. I say crank the crit damage up to 2.5 and the crit rate to look 40% starting out then add in the team buff.
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If people don't want to be good most of the time, but all of the time, shouldn't the critical rate be 100%? 40% is not even half the time.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
You're worried about dps on a burst damage archetype? No wonder we don't understand each other.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Assassin Strike AGAIN?! Look, on a team you don't always have the time to use Assassin Strike, and that Sapper (insert annoying lieutenant to flavor) might not have died in the alpha, so there's a real chance you might not be hidden.
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And lowering the DPA of the following attack by using Placate before it is a reduction in how quickly you are capable of dealing damage, regardless of what time frame you're looking at.
Look at it this way, using qualitative analysis: DPA (and DPS) = damage / time. Time to kill a mob = mob hp / DPS. With Placate damage goes up, but time goes up more, extending your "burst window". Your overall DPA (DPS) goes down and you take longer to deal the same amount of damage required to kill the target. That's not exactly helping your burst damage by taking more time to kill the same target.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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My expectation is that a Stalker is an AT which sacrifices multiple powers between their Primary AND their Secondary powersets in order to "get" (access to) a group of Signature Powers that are only available to Stalkers. One of those powers, we don't even get a choice on ... HIDE. My *expectation* is that those powers which only Stalkers have access to are the defining and Signature Powers of the Archetype. And as the defining and Signature Powers of the Archetype, the *synergies* of those powers are what the Archetype should be organized around ... which means that those powers should be "relevant" at all times (ie. not *just* when out of combat or alpha striking/ambushing) and that these powers ought to be "frequently usable" within the context of high speed combat which characterizes 99% of the game mechanics for City of Heroes.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
The reason there is a debate about what change should be is that people have different expectations of Stalker AT.
Your ideal Stalker may not be the same as others. |
That means that, in my opinion, any buffing of the Stalker Archetype ought to involve strengthening the uniquely Signature Powers that Stalkers have access to First and Foremost ... namely Assassin Strike, Placate and Hide ... in ways which synergize these powers together more effectively than they have been to date.
The simple fact of the matter is that the Issue 22 (proposed) buffs to Stalker involve enhancing Assassin Strike ... ignoring the multi-year Known Issues with Placate ... and keeping Hide as irrelevant as possible. Out of three powers that could have been buffed, only ONE is having any changes made to it ... and those changes don't help the other two Signature Powers of Stalkers in any meaningful way.
This is why I personally consider the Assassin's Focus mechanic, as revealed at the Player Summit, to be a DISservice to the Stalker Archetype as a whole. Substantially the same *effect* can be achieved, by other means, which would increase the usefulness of Placate and Hide ... but that's not where the Powers Team went with their (proposed) changes.
If anything, the Assassin's Focus mechanic simply goes to show that Assassin Strike, as we've known it up until now, isn't doing the job it was designed for ... because the *synergies* needed to support it aren't there. I for one wish that the Powers Team would have chosen to go another route where they strengthened the power synergies between Assassin Strike, Placate and Hide ... rather than the course that they have chosen (and which has yet to hit the Test Server).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Makes me wonder how much better Placate would be if its casting time were 0.73 seconds (ie. the same as Hide's animation), rather than the 1.5 seconds "This is not the Stalker you're looking for..." Hand Wave of HIT ME NAO!!!!
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
With Placate damage goes up, but time goes up more, extending your "burst window". Your overall DPA (DPS) goes down and you take longer to deal the same amount of damage required to kill the target. That's not exactly helping your burst damage by taking more time to kill the same target.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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I asked about reducing the animation time of Placate while I was asking about getting rid of the interrupt from Assassin's Strike entirely (I had a nice little list). The animation time issues are outside of the control of the powers team since it ties up the animators - which is also why I suspect that the normalization of the Assassin's Strike animations will happen well after i22. Maybe Placate can be revisited at the same time.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Makes me wonder how much better Placate would be if its casting time were 0.73 seconds (ie. the same as Hide's animation), rather than the 1.5 seconds "This is not the Stalker you're looking for..." Hand Wave of HIT ME NAO!!!!
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I probably won't pick up Placate anymore with this change, or at very least, hold off on getting it for awhile. Otherwise my Stalker play style remains pretty much exactly the same. Probably going to need to rework my attack chain, but I'm still going to be sneaking around and stabbing people in the face and at the end of the day I'm pretty okay with that.
I think the dev needs to determine what exactly Placate is good for. The problem I have is this:
Offensively:
Placate seems like taking one extra step to get that critical and yet we may get hit before the attack goes out, especially if you placate somebody at a further distance. Placate may also get interrupted by offensive toggles. You basically have to fire off an attack asap or else you don't get that critical.
Offensively, the new buff allows us to bypass that one extra step.
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Defensively:
Placate only hits one target and it's duration, I believe, is only around 10s. When I solo, I've tried Placating a minion first and then BU + AS a boss. The minion will not notice me until the duration wears off.
Defensively, it is not great because if we are mostly using for critical purpose, then it loses its defensive purpose. Some people want an AoE Placate because they feel "Assassins" should be able to "get in and out of battle". I am one of those that don't like losing aggro on my Stalker but if Assassins are supposed to be "selfish", so be it. This just means that I won't be using placate when I want to draw aggro but at the same time, I am able to fire off a Critical AS with 3 focuses.
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Should Placate focus more on Offense or Defense? I am leaning towards Defense because the new Focus will be good enough for Offensive purpose. What do you guys think?
Should Placate be an AoE (much like Smoke Flash although I've never used it!). Or should Placate just grant a small Defensive boost or Tohit debuff?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I read only halfway through the first page because I felt this should be said.
Scrapper envy? Giving Scrapper mechanics to Stalkers? Turning Stalkers into Scrappers?
Scrappers don't have the ability to get consistent critical hits from any mechanic of theirs, except the occasional enhanced-chance critical attack power. Scrappers do not get the ability to get an assured critical hit from working their other powers, no, because all they have is a random 5-10% chance. A mere fluke in comparison.
I ain't smiling Joe, Scrappers are virtually irrelevant in comparison. Other than they came first and happen to have Critical hit as their inherent power, what is it that Stalkers are really getting from them? More HP? Increased base damage? Critical hit? Other than the HP cap increase, they're not getting any of that. They're getting something that makes Scrappers envy, on-demand critical hits.
Stalkers have always been seen as specialists who work into hitting the enemy where it hurts most, not just merely smacking them about until they fall over. Scrappers only 'occasionally' hit their target's weak point, Stalkers actively seek out weak points, line them up and then take them down in one-fell swoop.
Assassin's Focus is going to allow A.Strike to be effective in AND out of Hide and teach those Scrappers whose the real critical-hitters in this game. Stalkers are going to be Burst-damage Melee AT kings because of this change, and it'll be up to the Scrappers to try to keep up when it comes to trying to out-damage single-target toughies like E-Bosses.
The only thing I'll regret when it goes live is that rare out-of-hide A.Strike that ended up critting, causing a out-of-hide Assassin's Strike bonus as a result. But x2 damage is still good nevertheless.
Home server: Victory
Characters on: Victory & Virtue
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@Oneirohero
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Originally Posted by Oneirohero
The only thing I'll regret when it goes live is that rare out-of-hide A.Strike that ended up critting, causing a out-of-hide Assassin's Strike bonus as a result. But x2 damage is still good nevertheless. |
Well depending on how it works mechanically it may still be possible to get those rare cases, I'm thinking of the especially Rare Double AS crit which might actually happen more often now.
Probably not but we'll see.
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My name is Scirion, and I approve of this suggestion.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Two words ...
INSTANT GRATIFICATION By making Stalkers more like Scrappers, the Devs are indulging the Players' desire for Instant Gratification in a way that is instantly recognizable and doesn't require any "thought" or real strategizing on the part of the Players. It happens, it's automatic, and it doesn't require any attention span/situational awareness to be able to make use of it. The CRIT NAO rather than Crit Later (even if "later" is the very next attack cued up in your attack chain!) is something that everyone can intuitively grasp. Or to put it another way ... "A Crit in the hand, is safer than the one that *might* land on your next attack." Everyone wants to go for the "sure thing" as well as the "easy thing" ... and people figure that leveraging Hide (and its mechanics) is neither of those things because it would be more complicated (and require actually Paying Attention to what's happening, as opposed to just button mashing brainlessly). The funny thing is ... I'm pretty darn sure it ought to be perfectly possible to rig up a power in the game which detoggles Hide, *instantly recharges it*, and then in the very *next* Arcanatime Moment toggles Hide back on with a minimal animation time (ie. not the 0.73 second animation usually used when toggling on the power normally). We know that being able to toggleoff/toggleon is possible, because we use it in keybinds all the time. We know that being able to instantly recharge a power is possible, because Kinetic Combat does it for Build Up when Concentrated Strike scores a Critical Hit. And we know that alternate animations can be used for powers, because that's the key technology that makes Momentum for Titan Weapons possible. And why would doing something like that be useful? Because being able to do something like an auto toggleoff/toggleon of Hide in near zero time would make it perfectly possible to have ALL Stalker (single target primary attack) Critical Hits "re-engage Hide" DURING combat as the signature means a Stalker uses to deliver Double Damage to targets. It wouldn't be "instant" double damage like a Scrapper does with their Critical Hits ... but it would make the Hide power a combat relevant power since Stalkers would "naturally" flicker in and out of Hide DURING combat. And that would be very interesting game mechanically, since Hide isn't *just* about How Not To Be Seen. There are additional buffs (and I'm thinking about the Defenses) to be gained by being Hidden, which ... as Smiling Joe has already pointed out ... includes things like being able to maneuver to escape a bad situation much more reliably. Furthermore, it ought to even be perfectly possible to code this behavior of Instant Hide On (single target primary attack) Critical Hit (when not already Hidden) during combat to include an 8 ft PBAoE Placate effect as a "freebie" bonus, allowing the Instant Hide to be much more effective against Foes within Melee Range. The only downside to this of course would be that Stalkers would make singularly ineffective Aggro Magnets (filed under the heading of, "Well, DUH!"). Note carefully how everything I'm saying here does not require "Scraptastic" gimmicks to achieve Stalker-ish performance, and instead better leverages already existing Signature Stalker Abilities to achieve the same results by a completely different method. It increases the value of a power that EVERY STALKER IS FORCED TO TAKE ... that otherwise has next to No Value once combat is begun ... and it leads to additional tactical possibilities which otherwise might not be available when using other game mechanical solutions. And because of the "1-2 combo" involved in dealing double damage *this way* being more "complicated" than just simply inflicting double damage *instantly* like Scrappers do ... it creates a system where Player Skill and Situational Awareness can be rewarded in ways that Scrapper Critical Hits cannot be, making the Stalker AT "more unique" and diversifying it away from its melee powerset cousins. But because it doesn't involve Instant Gratification ... people don't want it. Seems pretty simple to understand to me, Joe.  |
In fact, I endorse it. I would even donate to the cause of getting it put in the game.
That said, I also approve of the removal of the interrupt outside of Hide. Why?
Play Dual Blades. No, really. Go ahead, try it. I'll wait here. *waits 10 minutes* Alright, now that you've had a chance to try Dual Blades, did you notice something? One combo (arguably, the best combo, Sweep) requires Build Up AND Assassin's Strike. A second one (Power Up - Or is it Empower?) requires both of those and Placate. Having a power critical to TWO of your combos (the main draw to playing Dual Blades to me, outside of very speedy damage output, while still being kind of flashy) being effectively locked out when not Hidden really kinda sucks, y'know?
I'd go on, but our ITF just filled, and I'm bringing a Dual Blades Stalker. >.>
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Sadly unable to use those combo's out of hide is only one of my problems with DB for Stalkers. |
Originally Posted by Scirion
My name is Scirion, and I approve of this suggestion.
In fact, I endorse it. I would even donate to the cause of getting it put in the game. That said, I also approve of the removal of the interrupt outside of Hide. Why? Play Dual Blades. No, really. Go ahead, try it. I'll wait here. *waits 10 minutes* Alright, now that you've had a chance to try Dual Blades, did you notice something? One combo (arguably, the best combo, Sweep) requires Build Up AND Assassin's Strike. A second one (Power Up - Or is it Empower?) requires both of those and Placate. Having a power critical to TWO of your combos (the main draw to playing Dual Blades to me, outside of very speedy damage output, while still being kind of flashy) being effectively locked out when not Hidden really kinda sucks, y'know? I'd go on, but our ITF just filled, and I'm bringing a Dual Blades Stalker. >.> |
The other is the lack of the awesome animation of Typhoon's Edge. I really never cared for 1k Cuts animation. But TE and Vengeful Slice, those are my favorite animations in the set.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
The funny thing is ... I'm pretty darn sure it ought to be perfectly possible to rig up a power in the game which detoggles Hide, *instantly recharges it*, and then in the very *next* Arcanatime Moment toggles Hide back on with a minimal animation time (ie. not the 0.73 second animation usually used when toggling on the power normally). We know that being able to toggleoff/toggleon is possible, because we use it in keybinds all the time. We know that being able to instantly recharge a power is possible, because Kinetic Combat does it for Build Up when Concentrated Strike scores a Critical Hit. And we know that alternate animations can be used for powers, because that's the key technology that makes Momentum for Titan Weapons possible.
And why would doing something like that be useful? Because being able to do something like an auto toggleoff/toggleon of Hide in near zero time would make it perfectly possible to have ALL Stalker (single target primary attack) Critical Hits "re-engage Hide" DURING combat as the signature means a Stalker uses to deliver Double Damage to targets. It wouldn't be "instant" double damage like a Scrapper does with their Critical Hits ... but it would make the Hide power a combat relevant power since Stalkers would "naturally" flicker in and out of Hide DURING combat. |
Reading this over I noticed a point of contention.
This proposal has a crit automatically Re-Hide you. My point of contention is the because it's based on a crit it's actually closer to a Scrapper Mecahinic than the proposed Assassins Focus. Since Stalkers only have 2 controlled crits at the moment Hidden and Placate, this will see the most use from the Random crits rather than the controleld aspect Stalkers already have. Since this gets more leverage from Random Crits it's actually closer to Scrappers than the proposed Focus would be.
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This is why, at the Player Summit, in the Powersets and Player Abilities Panel, I practically begged the Powers Team Devs to "swap around" which powers are required to combo up finishers for Dual Blades Stalkers, so as to *AVOID* requiring ANY of the following powers:|
Originally Posted by Scirion
One combo (arguably, the best combo, Sweep) requires Build Up AND Assassin's Strike. A second one (Power Up - Or is it Empower?) requires both of those and Placate. Having a power critical to TWO of your combos (the main draw to playing Dual Blades to me, outside of very speedy damage output, while still being kind of flashy) being effectively locked out when not Hidden really kinda sucks, y'know?
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- Assassin's Blades
- Build Up
- Placate
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
I actually *prefer* that the combo's use those powers. It gives more variety than just clicking the same three or four powers over and over. My complaint is that one of those powers can be interrupted, thus effectively eliminating two of your four (five? I forget...) combos from being used while in combat. As far as I'm concerned, remove the interrupt while out of Hide, and we'd be golden. The suggestion of removing the interrupt WHILE Hidden, and keeping it while OUTSIDE of Hide is ludicrous, because honestly, that wouldn't fix the problem. You might could go so far as to say that it would make it worse. You have all the time in the world while Hidden, nothing is attacking you to worry about being interrupted. The problem is once mobs start attacking, that's when you're screwed.
Why not surveillance? It would greatly increase the ST damage (burst and sustained), it helps on teams/solo, has no problems w/ animations/interrupt, it's a quick fix that no one would argue doesn't follow the theme. It doesn't feel like any other AT because it isn't a widespread power. And it could be an inherent power like domination. Why shouldn't a stalker know the ins and outs of it's prey? Maybe even a small irresistible part for AVs (5%?).
It would be nice if they can re-vamp this AT with Damage primary and Control/Debuff secondary (much like Burglar class in Lord of the ring). Bane is similar to that except Bane is freaking slow.
Let's assume, re-vamp is not an option, what else can they do to make Stalker more "assassin-like"? I know "stealth" is no longer a Stalker specialty. When people think of Stalker, they are more likely to associate it with "burst damage" and more "fragile" (even though Stalker has the similar defensive values as Scrapper/Brute).
So you do have tools outside of Ninjitsu in your secondaries. Ninjitsu has the lion's share, to be sure. But other secondaries can be played in similar fashion - and ought to be IMHO. Those extra toys aren't just "skippable slots."
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