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It does 'take away' what we have now, in a relative sense. If what we have now is made so inferior and still difficult to use compared to new mechanisms added, you might as well throw what you had away.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Exactly. I think at the end of the day, the dev just think the current "placate" and "hide" and "re-hide" mechanisms are just too unreliable. They want Stalkers to deal "massive" ST damage that is not interruptable. Focus counter is there so Stalker doesn't go too crazy on critical damage.
What the buff will do doesn't take away what we have now. You can still use Placate + AS but it may seem less effective because uninterruptable AS seems very effective! Using Placate still has an advantage because you can stop the foe from attacking you for a little while, or you can Placate one and attack another (just like Hold One, Attack Another strategy). |
I'm sort of with Smily Joe, I'm really peeved at us right now.
Yeah, okay, you like the idea of Assassin's Focus, what it'll do to Stalker's ST DPS and what now. Now *WHY* can we not at least try to kind of hint at entertaining the notion of just keeping what Stalkers do now? No, I'm not saying keep Stalkers in the state they're in, but at *LEAST* don't make current Stalker form obsolete. It's worse than what they did with old defiance (I liked old defiance, by the way) but at least they *REMOVED* old defiance so it's not just a vestigial option that might as well not be there.
[EDIT]And for the bolded part. Do you honestly believe that? Are you honestly telling me you will seek out using Placate > AS with the new changes? How many others do you think will bother? I honestly want to know because I think you're lying. People don't even want to use Placate > AS *RIGHT NOW*, going so far as to skip the powers completely! And you're telling me people will bother with it once you can get AS down to 1sec with no chance of interrupt?
Complete and utter Bullsh*t is what I say to that.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Stalkers are supposed to be the "stealth" archetype, or so I thought. The one archetype with true stealth (outside of illusion controllers) that can only be seen by things that bypass that stealth. (which I still don't think is fair.)
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Yes, I remember that. I played stalkers back then, too. The effect was the same as stealth: attacking an enemy who - by dint of not seeing you or not being able to move - could not attack back. It's the difference between assassination and combat. The stalker inherent is called assassination because stalkers in this game are/were assassins.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Stalkers have always had Out of Hide crits.
When CoV launched Stalkers had 2 ways to get critical damage the first using Hide/Placate, and the second was a 20%to crit on held/slept enemies. So from creation Stalkers had a means to do Crit damage outside of Hidden. |
Now quite a bit of criticism can be leveled at the notion of putting assassins in what is essentially a dps combat game. Nonetheless the playstyle was - and is - appealing to an apparently shrinking minority.
Being an assassin doesn't have to be a one-shot-one-kill all or nothing deal, however. But changes to the archetype ought to keep the assassin theme of avoiding combat as much as realistically possible in favor of stealth, diversion and confusion.
The proliferation of combos/fury/build up tokens is getting ridiculous.
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| Then everyone realized Stalkers were under performing in team content, and that the 20% crit was pointless in PvE and we got the Stalker buffs of Demoralize, innate 10% Crit and Scaling team Crit |
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Now we're getting Assassins focus. Which isn't being borrowed from Scrapper Crits since those are just a flat %. Seeing how focus doesn't seem to have any kind of decay mentioned it's another way to control our crits, now granted it's a controlled AS crit which may not always be desired but it is a controlled crit. |
But that's just me, and maybe one or two others. You're right. Like it or not, we already have scrapper-style crits. I just think it would be nice if we could stem the tide.
That control you're talking about doesn't give nearly the control that you're letting on. In the post right above yours Leo G hits it right on the head: What happens if you get your Assassin's Focus after the heavy damage portion of your attack chain? You crit with a tier one attack or - if you're right and there's no decay - take a hit to your dps while you wait on one of those larger attacks to recharge. Where's the control in that? You're just getting a guaranteed critical every three hits. You're not in control of anything more than who you're hitting, unless you really want to micromanage your attack chain.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I agree with you on this. Whole-heartedly. My haste in communicating my thoughts led me to oversimplify and describe only one means to the end. But yes. Ambush is an apt description. Stealth is just one way to go about it. You can also "ambush" a held target or a sleeping target. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
That's the very reason I tend not to think of Stalkers as the 'Stealth AT', because stealth is available to everyone (and mixed into powersets). I wonder if I'm talking to myself or do people just think my notions are retarded? Stalkers are the 'Ambush AT' because they get 'bonuses' for striking an unwitting enemy. Stealth has nothing to do with it, frankly.
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The key is that you're benefiting from attacking an unwitting opponent. Sowing mayhem and confusion among his allies to leverage another ambush even in the middle of combat. Assassin's Focus - as proposed - does nothing like that. It's pretty much the dumbing down of the archetype.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
When I read about teh changes, I did think they sounded pretty good. That is, the AS Focus mechanic in particular. However, after reading some of Joe's points, I think I do agree with him.
Will the Focus make Stalkers better at doing damage? I am quite sure it will. Does it take them closer to the 'mash attacks like crazy and flip out' scrapper style? I also think it could. Is that a BAD thing? I guess it depends how you look at it. If the goal was simply more reliable damage, then yes, gold star.
However, as Joe again mentions, it is very close to scrapper like. I also agree that one of the things I like about stalking is the ability to pick and choose targets, backing off a little when needed, not playing in that buzzsaw mode of a brute or scrapper.
Too make another comparison, I do not think that Blasters should have got the mechanic in defiance that is a Fury clone. Fury belongs to brutes! I DO like teh tier 1/2 attcking when mezzed ability, but I much preferred the old Defiance. Note, I am saying I preferred it..I wont try to argue that the fury version IS better, from a performance point.
Is performance just what we want though? Stalkers get no TW..because of theme. SO clearly devs think it is important. Most players would agree, up to certain points.
As some people have mentioned, fixing placate should have been a sure fire stalker change. Yet we dont get that. Another person mentions the imbalance between stalker def and res sets. I agree with this. It has gotta be the only AT where good use of your main tools (hide, as, placate) function worlds better on defence sets.
The focus changes might be good, might be great. However, I think that if it sees people just becoming scrappers, that is not a good thing.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
[EDIT]And for the bolded part. Do you honestly believe that? Are you honestly telling me you will seek out using Placate > AS with the new changes? How many others do you think will bother? I honestly want to know because I think you're lying. People don't even want to use Placate > AS *RIGHT NOW*, going so far as to skip the powers completely! And you're telling me people will bother with it once you can get AS down to 1sec with no chance of interrupt?
Complete and utter Bullsh*t is what I say to that. |
I honestly believe Placate + Interruptable Attack is simply unreliable. It doesn't matter it's 1s or 0.5s activation time. As long as you have interruption, it's a questionable attack.
What if Placate + Assassin is a bad design to begin with? How do you elaborate from a "bad" design?
And I am telling you that Placate + Assassin Strike has its use. It's a use that may not be popular but Placate + AoE is still viable.
What if the dev simply don't want us to take one extra step to get that critical ST damage? Just look at how many people complain about Placate. Does Placate "define" what Stalker does? Or it's Assassin Strike? Or it's "burst" damage?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Two words ...|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Why do players have such an aversion to using hide to get criticals? I think it was Jibikao who mentioned up-thread about not having to go through the extra step of going into hide to get a critical, and several have made the point about auto-hit effects knocking you out of hide.
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INSTANT GRATIFICATION
By making Stalkers more like Scrappers, the Devs are indulging the Players' desire for Instant Gratification in a way that is instantly recognizable and doesn't require any "thought" or real strategizing on the part of the Players. It happens, it's automatic, and it doesn't require any attention span/situational awareness to be able to make use of it. The CRIT NAO rather than Crit Later (even if "later" is the very next attack cued up in your attack chain!) is something that everyone can intuitively grasp.
Or to put it another way ... "A Crit in the hand, is safer than the one that *might* land on your next attack."
Everyone wants to go for the "sure thing" as well as the "easy thing" ... and people figure that leveraging Hide (and its mechanics) is neither of those things because it would be more complicated (and require actually Paying Attention to what's happening, as opposed to just button mashing brainlessly).
The funny thing is ... I'm pretty darn sure it ought to be perfectly possible to rig up a power in the game which detoggles Hide, *instantly recharges it*, and then in the very *next* Arcanatime Moment toggles Hide back on with a minimal animation time (ie. not the 0.73 second animation usually used when toggling on the power normally). We know that being able to toggleoff/toggleon is possible, because we use it in keybinds all the time. We know that being able to instantly recharge a power is possible, because Kinetic Combat does it for Build Up when Concentrated Strike scores a Critical Hit. And we know that alternate animations can be used for powers, because that's the key technology that makes Momentum for Titan Weapons possible.
And why would doing something like that be useful? Because being able to do something like an auto toggleoff/toggleon of Hide in near zero time would make it perfectly possible to have ALL Stalker (single target primary attack) Critical Hits "re-engage Hide" DURING combat as the signature means a Stalker uses to deliver Double Damage to targets. It wouldn't be "instant" double damage like a Scrapper does with their Critical Hits ... but it would make the Hide power a combat relevant power since Stalkers would "naturally" flicker in and out of Hide DURING combat.
And that would be very interesting game mechanically, since Hide isn't *just* about How Not To Be Seen. There are additional buffs (and I'm thinking about the Defenses) to be gained by being Hidden, which ... as Smiling Joe has already pointed out ... includes things like being able to maneuver to escape a bad situation much more reliably.
Furthermore, it ought to even be perfectly possible to code this behavior of Instant Hide On (single target primary attack) Critical Hit (when not already Hidden) during combat to include an 8 ft PBAoE Placate effect as a "freebie" bonus, allowing the Instant Hide to be much more effective against Foes within Melee Range. The only downside to this of course would be that Stalkers would make singularly ineffective Aggro Magnets (filed under the heading of, "Well, DUH!").
Note carefully how everything I'm saying here does not require "Scraptastic" gimmicks to achieve Stalker-ish performance, and instead better leverages already existing Signature Stalker Abilities to achieve the same results by a completely different method. It increases the value of a power that EVERY STALKER IS FORCED TO TAKE ... that otherwise has next to No Value once combat is begun ... and it leads to additional tactical possibilities which otherwise might not be available when using other game mechanical solutions. And because of the "1-2 combo" involved in dealing double damage *this way* being more "complicated" than just simply inflicting double damage *instantly* like Scrappers do ... it creates a system where Player Skill and Situational Awareness can be rewarded in ways that Scrapper Critical Hits cannot be, making the Stalker AT "more unique" and diversifying it away from its melee powerset cousins.
But because it doesn't involve Instant Gratification ... people don't want it.
Seems pretty simple to understand to me, Joe.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
It also doesn't add to what we have now. It gives us a more generic way to fight that will be more effective than anything the traditional mechanics give. Why have them at all, then?
This is exactly what happened to Peacebringers. Once on a time a Peacebringer was equally effective in any form - it was just underperforming. After the changes made Light Form more like Eclipse and Build Up more like Sunless Mire, shapeshifting on a shapeshifter suddenly became a sub-optimal way to play the high end game. The forms were just there to crutch your way through the lower levels with no noticeable boost to performance until you got Light Form and made it perma. Now, a truly effective Peacebringer is a sight to behold, and that sight looks (and plays) a good bit like a brute with ranged powers. I see something very similar coming for stalkers. |
Which part of "Stalker" gameplay defines Stalker in your opinion? Most people's complaint on Stalker is just lack of damage for a "glass cannon" class. People are not looking for Stalker for support or tanking.
The current Placate and interruption are simply "bad" design IMO because Placate doesn't completely let you lose all the aggro. We use Placate simply to either finish off a boss with AS or use it for AoE critical. The new buff gives us a chance to bypass the use of Placate and get a critical through Focus.
I've said it before that I don't want an aoe placate because I sometimes want the aggro to stay on me. Well, maybe being an Assassin needs to be "selfish" and act like one.
Would AoE Placate make you feel more like an Assassin where you can simply disappear in the battlefield and strike again?
I think the dev's goal in this buff is to simply turn Stalker into ST melee machine through Assassin Strike. This power is the signature power. I love it that they make it better because I don't want to take an attack that I mostly use in the beginning of the battle and sometimes I don't even get to use it if I get hit somehow.
I guess we need to figure what exactly defines "Stalker". Your ideal Stalker may not be the same as mine. Let's face it. This game has a "simple" game engine. You click powers and smash. The game engine is not as complicated as some newer games like Rift where there are so many class combinations and so many spells with different combination effects, but even in that kind of game, "Assassin" usually starts the battle with "burst damage" and then he needs to finish off the fight by scrapping or debuffs/controls.
PS: And I do agree with you about Peacebringer. I've said it many times that one reason I don't like Kheldians in general is that shifting forms has "delays" and changing from Tanker form to Human drops all the shields that you put on. Changing forms is simply "annoying" rather than "enjoyable".
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
And also, how much time do you think the developer have for Stalker in Issue 22? Are they going to really re-vamp this AT to get that "Stalker" feeling right?
Arcanville actually has a great idea but that requires a "Reverse of Fury" bar. Basically Stalker starts the fight at the max. Fury and then gradually decline. And you can use Placate to make the bar go back higher, etc.
I like that idea but do I think the dev has time to make that happen? Nope.
This means they only have time to make something that has an immediate positive effect. I am not saying Stalker has to be the king of ST damage. I just think that's most people's complaint on Stalker = lack of damage.
I don't mind if Assassin Focus causes Demoralize either. I don't always need a critical damage. It would be cool if Stalker can offer more controls for the team.
As for the new buff making Stalker too Scrapper. Well, I see it this way:
Scrapper: More AoE damage, mindless smashing, random Critical. Since there is no Fury bar and no Hidden/Placate, you simply pick your target and kill.
Stalker: Less AoE Damage, better burst damage and controllable Critical Damage. With Focus, you hit 3 times (landed) and then you can choose a target to deliver that sure Critical damage.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Are you constantly using Assassin Strike and Placate as a combo? Why? Of course it's unreliable!! Assassin Strike wasn't meant to be used in EVERY. SINGLE. COMBAT. SITUATION. It would be nice if it had more flexibility, but it was never intended to be the crutch that you're describing. There are ideal circumstances for using Assassin Strike, and nine times out of ten it will NOT come after Placate.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I honestly believe Placate + Interruptable Attack is simply unreliable. It doesn't matter it's 1s or 0.5s activation time. As long as you have interruption, it's a questionable attack.
What if Placate + Assassin is a bad design to begin with? How do you elaborate from a "bad" design? And I am telling you that Placate + Assassin Strike has its use. It's a use that may not be popular but Placate + AoE is still viable. What if the dev simply don't want us to take one extra step to get that critical ST damage? Just look at how many people complain about Placate. Does Placate "define" what Stalker does? Or it's Assassin Strike? Or it's "burst" damage? |
Look, just because you can't use Assassin Strike in every situation doesn't mean that Stalkers have to be scrappers in every other situation. You do have other tools and other options besides the standard fight club response.
And there is NO EXTRA STEP when you gain criticals by dropping into hide. Saying that there's an extra step implies that some time passes or that the player needs to do something extra. NEITHER is true. If a game mechanic can guarantee a critical, it will take exactly ZERO extra seconds and ZERO extra effort on the part of the player if hide is also induced. This extra step you keep talking about is nothing more than semantics.
Having said that - there are obvious problems with just using hide to gain critical states - my position isn't to simply do that - it's to START with hide and see what's possible from there (vise just tacking on free regular criticals)
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I agree with you Jibikao. Putting an Interrupt into a Melee attack is simply BAD DESIGN. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I honestly believe Placate + Interruptable Attack is simply unreliable. It doesn't matter it's 1s or 0.5s activation time. As long as you have interruption, it's a questionable attack.
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Which means that all that REALLY needs to be done to Assassin Strike is to remove the Interrupt from the power ENTIRELY. No Interrupt when Hidden ... no Interrupt when Not Hidden. No Interrupt AT ALL. And suddenly, the power Assassin Strike is *much better* than it ever was before ... and any sort of "Titan Weapon-izing" of Assassin Strike to make it USABLE out of Hide simply becomes a Moot Point.
Which then begs the question ... why didn't the Powers Team reach for the most obvious and easiest solution to make Assassin Strike more useful as part of a mainline attack chain by simply eliminating the Interrupt Time from the Power(s)? It's not as if any of the Assassin Strike powers can be slotted for Interrupt Reduction anyway ...
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Just because you are attacking, you are not immediately labeled as a "Scrapper" you know. Are you saying all Brutes/Tankers are really just Scrappers without criticals? I brought up Placate + AS because that's what's unique to Stalker. You contradict yourself by saying that "Stalker shouldn't use Placate + AS because it's ineffective and yet you say Stalker will become Scrapper by simply scrapping. What exactly do you want Stalker to do? Just stand there and pass inspirations during Hidden? |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Look, just because you can't use Assassin Strike in every situation doesn't mean that Stalkers have to be scrappers in every other situation. You do have other tools and other options besides the standard fight club response. |
Stalker can control where the critical hit lands. That's an offensive advantage that Scrapper doesn't have. (Of course Scrapper has more offensive advantages in aoe damage)
I don't understand the notion that if your Stalker is attacking, you become a Scrapper. Unless Stalker suddenly has a different secondary set, Stalker will always attack first and ask questions later.
The only part that makes Stalker not like a Scrapper is to use Placate and get in and out of Hidden, which has proven to be unreliable and inefficient in such "fast-pace" game. If the game's pace is slower, sure, you can take your sweet time to find a target and eliminate. However, the regular bosses aren't exactly hard and there is no point in "stalking" if a tank is herding and it's not like Stalker can kill an AV (the real threat!) in one or two hits.
I don't want to get into this shutting match because that will only make Synapse not want to read it. We can come up a list of what makes "Stalker" unique and present to him in a list like the one you see in Tanker's forum (which caught Synapse's attention).
My English isn't good enough so I won't start the thread. Feel free to list out what you think makes Stalker unique and how effective that adds to gameplay. We Stalker fans better come up a list soon before they finalize the changes.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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The way it has been described to us, Assassin's Focus only burns off from Assassin's Strike (each time it's used) and builds on any and every attack other than AS. That's plenty of control - more than you get with Scourge, and since you don't lose any of the criticals you have now for it, it can only have a positive effect on your DPS in that manner.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
What happens if you get your Assassin's Focus after the heavy damage portion of your attack chain? You crit with a tier one attack or - if you're right and there's no decay - take a hit to your dps while you wait on one of those larger attacks to recharge.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Before I leave work, I want to post an idea that Leo_G said before.
What if Assassin Focus simply increases the Critical damage of Assassin Strike? For that to happen, they still need to smooth out how we can use AS/Placate effectively.
They can start by normalizing all Assassin Strikes. Give or take, 2.67s casting time + 0.5s interruption.
Placate has shorten casting time from 1.5s down to 1s or less and after using Placate, your Assassin Strike becomes uninterruptable. This will ensure that Stalker's unique Placate isn't ignored and if I can get much stronger Critical Assassin Strike with 3 Focuses, then I'll use it.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Any thoughts to whether they will get rid of the range limit on the team crit buff and just make it count who is on the current team instead? I have serious issues with the team buff because it only works well with other melees and if you have other melees why do you need a stalker in the first place? On a range team its pointless because the rest of the team will never be close enough to allow you to make use of the buff. I say make the range equal to what the old side kick range used to be, that way we dont have stalkers thinking they can go and solo the map and get scrapper...I mean stalker-lock.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Sorry but I hated that reverse fury idea. People do not want to be good some of the time or even most of the time. They want to be good all the time. Just look at what doms with thru. They eventually got buffed to have dominations damage on all the time without perma dom. The reverse fury is going to be like that all over again. I say crank the crit damage up to 2.5 and the crit rate to look 40% starting out then add in the team buff.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
And also, how much time do you think the developer have for Stalker in Issue 22? Are they going to really re-vamp this AT to get that "Stalker" feeling right?
Arcanville actually has a great idea but that requires a "Reverse of Fury" bar. Basically Stalker starts the fight at the max. Fury and then gradually decline. And you can use Placate to make the bar go back higher, etc. I like that idea but do I think the dev has time to make that happen? Nope. This means they only have time to make something that has an immediate positive effect. I am not saying Stalker has to be the king of ST damage. I just think that's most people's complaint on Stalker = lack of damage. I don't mind if Assassin Focus causes Demoralize either. I don't always need a critical damage. It would be cool if Stalker can offer more controls for the team. As for the new buff making Stalker too Scrapper. Well, I see it this way: Scrapper: More AoE damage, mindless smashing, random Critical. Since there is no Fury bar and no Hidden/Placate, you simply pick your target and kill. Stalker: Less AoE Damage, better burst damage and controllable Critical Damage. With Focus, you hit 3 times (landed) and then you can choose a target to deliver that sure Critical damage. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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I can't say if interruptible attacks are bad design or not because it depends how it's implemented. Interruptible by what? Movement? Damage? Taking other actions? All of the above? Yeah, I think it could have been rethought of when the AT was first implemented...now it seems like it might be a hassle with all the variables, deeming it a situational tactic. Problem then comes in if that situational tactic pays off enough.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I honestly believe Placate + Interruptable Attack is simply unreliable. It doesn't matter it's 1s or 0.5s activation time. As long as you have interruption, it's a questionable attack.
What if Placate + Assassin is a bad design to begin with? How do you elaborate from a "bad" design? And I am telling you that Placate + Assassin Strike has its use. It's a use that may not be popular but Placate + AoE is still viable. What if the dev simply don't want us to take one extra step to get that critical ST damage? Just look at how many people complain about Placate. Does Placate "define" what Stalker does? Or it's Assassin Strike? Or it's "burst" damage? |
Lol, if I were way back at the drawing board, I'd have made interruptible attacks something else entirely. Just pie-in-the-sky ideas, powers like Assassin's Strike and Snipes wouldn't be actual powers, but 'skills' one can pick up. What you'd do with those skills is then be able to 'right click', bring up an option to 'Assassinate' or 'Snipe' the target and it'd bring up a loading bar as if you'd click a mission objective. It'd load quickly depending what foe you clicked on (and you can click and load multiple foes at a time!). When it reached 100% you can then initiate one of your other attacks and get extra effects. If you interrupt it (only by taking action or moving, not being hit) you might still get extra dmg but not all the extra effects.
The extra effects would have been temp powers granted to the target that are 'pre loaded' on the mob as existing powers only activatable by such means. So you'd be able to balance the effect of an Assassination or Snipe attack *per mob*, meaning if you want a certain % of extra dmg, code it to the mob. Or a special regen debuff, code it to that mob. Or stop it from using a certain power, code it to that mob.
Lol you don't want me to develop an MMO. It'd be too convoluted
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
My English isn't good enough so I won't start the thread. Feel free to list out what you think makes Stalker unique and how effective that adds to gameplay. We Stalker fans better come up a list soon before they finalize the changes.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Sorry but I hated that reverse fury idea. People do not want to be good some of the time or even most of the time. They want to be good all the time. Just look at what doms with thru. They eventually got buffed to have dominations damage on all the time without perma dom. The reverse fury is going to be like that all over again. I say crank the crit damage up to 2.5 and the crit rate to look 40% starting out then add in the team buff.
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But again, pie-in-the-sky...
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That's not going to happen. It's part of the design of the power and will not be changing.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Which means that all that REALLY needs to be done to Assassin Strike is to remove the Interrupt from the power ENTIRELY. No Interrupt when Hidden ... no Interrupt when Not Hidden. No Interrupt AT ALL.
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Yes, I specifically asked about this.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I wish they would just fix currently problems with Stalkers to boost damage. Like making Placate either a 3-4 second duration, so you can get off more than one attack; or making Placate an autohit power that lasts for 5 seconds or until YOU attack so if you do get hit, you don't get knocked out of Hide.
Currently, I never really noticed the Placate bug with my Stalkers because the primaries I played didn't have lasting effects. However, when I starting playing my ElecM again, I see it all the time. I think it's the -recovery, but I pretty much get knocked out of Hide all the time after Placate.
They could boost Stalker's base damage up to meet or exceed Scrappers. I have no idea why it's lower. Boost BU up to 100%, like Scrappers. Again, I have no idea why it's lower. I don't want my Stalker to be like a Scrapper, which seems to be happening with these changes.
Most of these ideas are in the pages of suggestions, but they chose to just do something else instead of listen to the player base to see what we wanted. Anyway, I'm sure these changes will go live without any consideration from us. You know, just like with PVP changed in i13. But whatever... Just means I'll probably play my Stalker as a Stalker but not utilizing these changes because I feel it really takes away from the uniqueness of the Stalker AT.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Just because you are attacking, you are not immediately labeled as a "Scrapper" you know. Are you saying all Brutes/Tankers are really just Scrappers without criticals? I brought up Placate + AS because that's what's unique to Stalker. You contradict yourself by saying that "Stalker shouldn't use Placate + AS because it's ineffective and yet you say Stalker will become Scrapper by simply scrapping. What exactly do you want Stalker to do? Just stand there and pass inspirations during Hidden?
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Stalker can control where the critical hit lands. That's an offensive advantage that Scrapper doesn't have. (Of course Scrapper has more offensive advantages in aoe damage) I don't understand the notion that if your Stalker is attacking, you become a Scrapper. Unless Stalker suddenly has a different secondary set, Stalker will always attack first and ask questions later. The only part that makes Stalker not like a Scrapper is to use Placate and get in and out of Hidden, which has proven to be unreliable and inefficient in such "fast-pace" game. If the game's pace is slower, sure, you can take your sweet time to find a target and eliminate. However, the regular bosses aren't exactly hard and there is no point in "stalking" if a tank is herding and it's not like Stalker can kill an AV (the real threat!) in one or two hits. I don't want to get into this shutting match because that will only make Synapse not want to read it. We can come up a list of what makes "Stalker" unique and present to him in a list like the one you see in Tanker's forum (which caught Synapse's attention). My English isn't good enough so I won't start the thread. Feel free to list out what you think makes Stalker unique and how effective that adds to gameplay. We Stalker fans better come up a list soon before they finalize the changes. |
Anyway, to your point. Scrapping it out. First off, every archetype - from Defenders and Dominators to Brutes and Scrappers - is going to have scrap it out scrapper style at one point or another. In a game based on the unpredictability of combat I can accept that.
Apart from that, however, I see melee combat in this game as something very different, depending on the archetype I'm playing. With Brutes I see a spawn, run in ahead of the team and chew a path through the minions to build fury on my way to the boss. With a tanker I see a spawn, run in ahead of the brutes and taunt the boss, swinging my aoes at the minions to get their aggro (don't worry brutes, they'll still be there to build your fury).
With scrappers - and I've said this on multiple occasions - I point to the corner where I'm going to pile the bodies and start by hitting tab-follow. I don't stop until the red haze lifts. It's random, violent and indiscriminate.
THAT is what I refer to as "scrapping it out." Regardless of what special mechanic I'm given to increase damage, combat is a random mess of orange numbers and falling bodies. It goes by in a blur and I come out in one of two places: at the top of a heap of bodies or at the bottom, combining inspirations to make a wakie and continue. Odds are heavily in favor of the former, but I don't shrink from the latter. These are the only two proper places for a scrapper to be, IMHO.
NOW for Stalkers:
As I said upthread, a stalker engages an unwitting or helpless opponent. This is not to say that the stalker is a coward. A stalker is a trickster, creating those circumstances that lead to unwitting or helpless oponents in the midst of battle. Dare I say it? They lay ambushes.
Every stalker primary has either a mitigation, ranged mitigation/damage, or aoe damage power at 18. At 26 stalkers get some sort of heavy damage/mitigation/aoe combination.
Stalker secondaries tend to come in two flavors - self-contained and rogueish. The self-contained ones (Regen, Willpower, Super Reflexes) are far outnumbered by the rogueish ones, and IMHO are generally most popular for PVP (to the point that I wonder that they weren't added for that very purpose).
The rest are what I refer to as "Rogueish," in that they contain - in addition to the passive mitigation of shields - active mitigation that is used on your enemies.
Take your active mitigation powers from both your primary and secondary! Use them! This is what I tell new stalkers all the time.
When I see a spawn on a stalker, I WAIT for the brutes/tanks to run in, let the battlefield get set, and THEN I pick the biggest opponent and stealth in. I may AS the boss if the conditions are right, or I may have to hit follow - jump the caltrops and hit a fast animating attack before I land. THE NEXT THING I DO is throw out some active mitigation. It might be caltrops, blinding powder, cloak of fear, disrupt or water spout. IF YOU PLACATE ANYTHING DURING TEAM PLAY, MAKE DAMNED SURE THAT TARGET IS AGGRO'D ONTO ANOTHER PLAYER, AND FOLLOW THAT UP WITH YOUR QUICKEST, HEAVIEST HITTING ATTACK THAT ISN'T ASSASSIN STRIKE. Not sure why everyone keeps insisting on using placate as a defensive power. It has NEVER been a defensive power only. It is and always should have been used as an offensive power with defensive capability.
But that's just my take. Others might have different (read that as: Better) tactics.
THE POINT is, when a stalker is in melee, he's diverting the attention of his foes directly with the many active mitigation tools and toggles at his disposal. Properly done, a stalker can keep an entire spawn distracted, mezzed, or otherwise occupied with other things for an entire battle. A scrapper punches you in the face repeatedly and randomly. A stalker points and says "look over there!" and downs you with a punch to the chin.
THAT's the difference between a scrapper and a stalker in melee. It requires practice, thought, and foresight to do it well, and I detest anything that dumbs that process down.
And the assassin's focus that is being planned does exactly that. Three hits and a critical. Regardless of what control it might actually give, what it does more than that is encourage players to stop thinking and mash buttons.
Can I still play a thinking-man's stalker with these changes? Sure. But forgive me if I'd rather see changes come to the archetype that don't encourage players to actively ignore the flavor of what makes stalkers who and what they are.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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That's what they said about Light Form locking out the forms on Peacebringers. Didn't stop them from tearing up the cottage rule with that one, did it?|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
That's not going to happen. It's part of the design of the power and will not be changing.
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Consistency is probably too much to ask for.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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This sounds a bit like Champions' "charge up". I've played Champions for a few months when it came out and I believe Experimental Beam is a bit like that. You charge up and depending on how far you charge up, it has different effects. You don't really get "interrupted" (well you can if you get held or knocked back but normal damage won't interrupt your charge up).|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Lol, if I were way back at the drawing board, I'd have made interruptible attacks something else entirely. Just pie-in-the-sky ideas, powers like Assassin's Strike and Snipes wouldn't be actual powers, but 'skills' one can pick up. What you'd do with those skills is then be able to 'right click', bring up an option to 'Assassinate' or 'Snipe' the target and it'd bring up a loading bar as if you'd click a mission objective. It'd load quickly depending what foe you clicked on (and you can click and load multiple foes at a time!). When it reached 100% you can then initiate one of your other attacks and get extra effects. If you interrupt it (only by taking action or moving, not being hit) you might still get extra dmg but not all the extra effects.
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I just think this game's engine is too simple to make that happen.
Having interruption on a melee attack is a whole lot more difficult than having interruption on a range attack. I just don't like interruption especially they've introduced even more auto damage in itrials.
(And yes, English is not my first language.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Unfortunately, Stalker is an AT with Damage primary and Defensive Secondary. Ninjitsu is as close to what you describe as it gets. (maybe Dark Armor too and Ice Armor)|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
THE POINT is, when a stalker is in melee, he's diverting the attention of his foes directly with the many active mitigation tools and toggles at his disposal. Properly done, a stalker can keep an entire spawn distracted, mezzed, or otherwise occupied with other things for an entire battle. A scrapper punches you in the face repeatedly and randomly. A stalker points and says "look over there!" and downs you with a punch to the chin. Can I still play a thinking-man's stalker with these changes? Sure. But forgive me if I'd rather see changes come to the archetype that don't encourage players to actively ignore the flavor of what makes stalkers who and what they are. |
It would be nice if they can re-vamp this AT with Damage primary and Control/Debuff secondary (much like Burglar class in Lord of the ring). Bane is similar to that except Bane is freaking slow.
Let's assume, re-vamp is not an option, what else can they do to make Stalker more "assassin-like"? I know "stealth" is no longer a Stalker specialty. When people think of Stalker, they are more likely to associate it with "burst damage" and more "fragile" (even though Stalker has the similar defensive values as Scrapper/Brute).
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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With Stalkers, I tab through and find something that needs to die right away and make it a priority. I then pick the next priority when it drops. Sometimes it's a minion, sometimes it's a boss. Sometimes the team is running smoothly and it's "whatever the reticle lands on first", but even then I usually try to pick up something that can cause issues if left unchecked.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Apart from that, however, I see melee combat in this game as something very different, depending on the archetype I'm playing. With Brutes I see a spawn, run in ahead of the team and chew a path through the minions to build fury on my way to the boss. With a tanker I see a spawn, run in ahead of the brutes and taunt the boss, swinging my aoes at the minions to get their aggro (don't worry brutes, they'll still be there to build your fury).
With scrappers - and I've said this on multiple occasions - I point to the corner where I'm going to pile the bodies and start by hitting tab-follow. I don't stop until the red haze lifts. It's random, violent and indiscriminate. |
Do you see how this is different from "wade through minions until the boss", "keep the bosses attention while splashing AoE on the minions", or "point to a corner where the bodies end up"? But you can play the same way (ie, fast and strategic elimination of trouble targets) for ANY of the melee ATs; that's not a Stalker thing.
You mention tools for distraction... uhm, with the exception of Ninjitsu and Demoralize, the other melee ATs get the same tools and often more - they share secondaries after all. Want to keep an entire spawn unable to act? A Stone Melee/Dark Armor Brute is going to handle that job a little better than a Stalker will.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
IF YOU PLACATE ANYTHING DURING TEAM PLAY, MAKE DAMNED SURE THAT TARGET IS AGGRO'D ONTO ANOTHER PLAYER, AND FOLLOW THAT UP WITH YOUR QUICKEST, HEAVIEST HITTING ATTACK THAT ISN'T ASSASSIN STRIKE. Not sure why everyone keeps insisting on using placate as a defensive power. It has NEVER been a defensive power only. It is and always should have been used as an offensive power with defensive capability.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Did you read the second sentence in the post you quoted? I specifically asked this powers team about it after the proposed changes were listed. That indicates to me that they have no intention of doing it and that it's off the table.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
That's what they said about Light Form locking out the forms on Peacebringers. Didn't stop them from tearing up the cottage rule with that one, did it?
Consistency is probably too much to ask for. |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Stalkers have always had Out of Hide crits.
When CoV launched Stalkers had 2 ways to get critical damage
the first using Hide/Placate, and the second was a 20%to crit on held/slept enemies.
So from creation Stalkers had a means to do Crit damage outside of Hidden.
Then everyone realized Stalkers were under performing in team content, and that the 20% crit was pointless in PvE and we got the Stalker buffs of Demoralize, innate 10% Crit and Scaling team Crit
Now we're getting Assassins focus.
Which isn't being borrowed from Scrapper Crits since those are just a flat %. Seeing how focus doesn't seem to have any kind of decay mentioned it's another way to control our crits, now granted it's a controlled AS crit which may not always be desired but it is a controlled crit.