Why 3 slot anything with 3 recharge enhancements???

Now, come on guys, be nice.

Just because Tanks get Taunt doesn't mean we have to use it.

All right, I confess it has been a while since I built anything that needed to worry about permaing dull pain. I might have been including spiritual or something. My point remains however that two to five seconds of hasten is not going to have an impact on something like that in practical circumstances. This is particularly true when you consider the cost of that third slot. Assuming level 50 common IOs, it's giving you something like 15% recharge just in hasten. If you don't have five lotgs already, that slot would be far better spent on another one of those.

Even if you can't translate it directly into another lotg, I wonder if you couldn't shave a few more extraneous slots from the average build that does things like three slotting hasten, since it seems to me that the person who thinks two to five extra seconds of hasten is mandatory may also find .05% extra EPS appealing and have stamina three slotted, for instance. Being the tanker forum, another option most builds here could probably integrate is taking mocking beratement from four to six slots, gaining a lotg sized bonus in the process. 15% recharge in one power, even hasten, is worth a damn sight less than that.

It comes down to both personal preference, and or build choice. Some build won't use a third slot in hasten because they need it else where, or don't need that extra "iota" of recharge on hasten. Some prefer to get hasten up "that much quicker" and will use the third slot. That can end up adding some measure of dps etc. to the build. Is it always the perfect solution? Not always. There are certainly other ways to get more recharge into a build, and those can all add up nicely should you choose to go that route. Layering all those in, as well as 3 slotting hasten is also "a choice".

The OP, unfortunately, seemed to come across with the attitude that no one here "gets it" when it came to how to slot hasten. For the most part we do "get it". And most of us like to 3 slot hasten most of the time.

As for the Green vs. Red numbers. Min/maxers prefer to see the red numbers as it means they're pushing it to the limit. Green isn't "the max".

I'd call maxing out individual powers basic min/maxing. It seems to me that the more advanced route is maxing out the total value of your available resources. A truly zen builder shouldn't even fear underslotting useful powers, which I'm not convinced going with only two slots in hasten can even be called, as long as the overall impact is positive. I'm talking 75% damage slotting in a non-mule attack if the average single target dps loss would be exceeded by the average aoe dps gain when one considers the average actual utility of the character's single target and aoe dps. Woah.

I decided to go through some of my builds looking for Hasten.

The first two, my Khelds had haste with just 2 slots.

I came across a Blaster that haste had 3 slots. I then looked about for better alternatives.

Another LotG wasn't a better alternative. There was no better alternative.

I may help people with their builds and not move their 3rd rechg slot but then I am just throwing alternative slotting suggestions their way and not something I am concerned about being their final build. People should always finish off their final build. I did this recently after I had replied to this thread. They had 3 slots, I left them with 3 slots.


Sometimes min/maxxing isn't about getting the best out of a characters rechg levels its just about getting what you need, sometimes you might skip that expensive enhancement because although the build is tighter with it, you won't really notice or miss it.

And, if you bother with the super packs at all, you'll be swimming in enhancement boosters whether you like it or not.

I know for my Ill/cold troller. Perma Hasten is a must to make sure that PA always recharges in 59 seconds. (also 125% recharge in PA).

(also, @PleaseRecycle. You are justifying sparing one slot and spending many more for the same amount of bonus. 15% recharge in hasten (3rd slot of recharge) = 1 slot. If you really need hasten up, then it's worth one slot. But in your example, you would slot 3 slots for 15% (3 LotG) or even more like 7-12 slots for the Taunt set. Yes, it would apply to all your powers, but if the person making the build really just needs hasten up. One slot is so much cheaper.

Thank you for eloquently phrasing what I've been trying to get at. There is never a reason to "just need hasten up." Hasten doesn't do anything at all besides provide a recharge buff. Wait, that's wrong, it also hits you with an endurance penalty. But in terms of its benefits, all it is is a global bonus that happens to have different mechanics than global bonuses from lotgs and sets. There is no other benefit in hasten in and of itself. This is why a couple seconds less uptime hardly matters: five seconds of extra hasten time is going to translate to something like two seconds better uptime for dull pain or whatever. For low recharge things like attacks the difference is radically less significant, and instead the advantage of having hasten up for an additional five seconds is that once in a blue moon you might encounter a tiny gap in an attack chain that is otherwise gapless while hasten is up. What is preventing that worth to you?

By the way, lotgs are 7.5% global bonuses, you only need two of them to exceed the value of the third slot in hasten for hasten itself. Mocking beratement is something I assume tankers tend to four slot anyway as its four slot bonus is s/l defense, the fifth slot is f/c, and the sixth is 7.5 recharge. Those are excellent bonuses all around and hardly scoffable-at for tankers.

Thanks for checking that out, glad I haven't completely lost my mind yet.

When you bring up perma-PA that's a very different issue and in that case, as with perma-dom, I agree that it can make sense to chase after every last crumblet of recharge. If one second's gap is the difference between definitely losing something's aggro or not, or avoiding a big crash or not, then by all means close that gap.

With something like dull pain, and indeed hasten itself, you don't actually lose anything by having a gap in its permanence. The only way for a two second dull pain gap to matter is if it would have recharged less than two seconds after you died or if in those two seconds you take just over your normal max hp's proportion of your health bar. The likelihood of that seems just shy of itty-bitty unless you're specifically tailoring your character for a silly task such as soloing ten specific AVs at once in AE. For dull pain, most of the time I find myself not using it when it comes up in the first place as rare are the situations where a decked out meleer is under that level of pressure non-stop for minutes on end.

So are we all agreed that each build has to be looked at as a seperate case scenario rather than making anything a strict rule?

I chuck out rules anyway.

The only "Heavy" characters I try to really squeeze recharge times down on are the Dark Melee/Invulnerability or Invulnerability/Dark Melee builds I run. This is because (in my perception) the Dark/Invul Synergy is strengthened disproportionately by high recharge. There are many reasons for this, and it is precisely because there are so many reasons that recharge is so valuable.

Dull Pain being up often is of course very good. Dark Melee has Siphon Life for keeping health up, but the Dull pain power works to just make the build that much tougher. Soul Drain is a 30 second build up power with no crash, no bad thing about it. But it has a 2 minute recharge time. To get this thing up near constantly requires a ton of recharge. And yes 2 seconds can mean a lot with this power. Hitting it as the first person in a spawn and getting saturated target coverage...sweet. Hitting it two seconds later after a Nuke hits the spawn and half the survivors are scattered? Sad Panda. We all know Invulnerability can "Run Hot" -(my term for endurance issues), especially with fighting toggles, maybe manuevers, and possibly with a build design emphasizing more defense and +health +recharge. Well, Dark Melee provides again, with Dark Consumption. That sweet power can take you from no blue bar to filled with just a few targets in range. er, once every 3 minutes. Since I do not want to wait for the next ice age to end before I get me End I advocate a little Glob Rech in the mix. And finally, I have just stated 3 powers that help keep you on your feet from Dark Melee. 2 of which really benefit from massive global rech, and one it sure doesnt hurt. But guess what that means? Dark Melee is a little short on attack powers. A strange little cone that works best on crowds and a heavy hitting odd attack late in the build. So....global recharge to the rescue. At least that way you get your buttons up, and if you need to spam the cone, the cone is there for you. If you need that one big attack up always, global recharge will at least try to help you. So that is why Global Recharge is so important on this one particular build. I am unsure it is quite that important on any other "Heavy Melee" character. It is of course highly sought after by dominators. Also, some folks calculate out attack chains and DPS and have a very specific global recharge number they will jump through hoops to get to. So, is 2 seconds global recharge that important? No. Except when it is.

I usually only 2 slot recharge for the majority of powers, and I *do* like to min/max. If another slot in Hasten will get me to perma, I'll go ahead and add it, but otherwise I don't really care that badly about 3-5 extra seconds.

Its pretty Simple, 3 Recharge SO Enhancers gor over the max and hit ED for Hastern, or any power. But 2 are not enough to maximize it. You gotta make a judgement call when that extra slot used is beneficial or a waste. But as just pointed out there is now a 3rd option with using Enhancement Boosters to buff the 2 into enough to smack ED and save yourself a slot.

I played this game for years, poor and shying away from the market. I played with SO builds. I still run SOs 90% of the time until I hit 50. On my SO builds there are a LOT of times I will put 3 Damage SOs into a brutes attack. Or use 3 recharge on a build with Hasten. Why? Because maximizing using SOs require that. Sure, I could take that extra enhancer slot and buff my unloved tier 2 attack. or...I could put it into Knockout Blow and make sure it really hits for maximum devastation.

I am starting to learn MIDs and high end build concepts now. It really is even more complex than it looks on the surface. Stuff not only has to hit the numbers and "look right" there has to be a deep logic to how everything works together. Attack chains and powers that affect other powers or self buffs are required to function at a certain level to justify throwing a crap ton of cash onto a build. Seriously, otherwise just run with SOs, its almost as much fun.