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More like that what Trick Arrow does, it's merely "okay" at ... while other sets can do the exact same things (often with fewer powers used) *AND* do more besides. This makes it feel like Trick Arrow is somehow "paying" more than it should for its specialization (Debuffing) in order to be mediocre (in comparison), rather than a standout in what it does. So the net experience is that Trick Arrow is being "penalized" unfairly and needs to be strengthened in order to find a niche in which it is not (completely) overshadowed by other powersets that do "the same things" plus more besides.
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Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
The lovers love the concept and that it can do a lot of things well.
The haters prefer other sets that do fewer things better. |
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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I think you need to re-read the thread. Your summary in no way represents the discussions in this thread.
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Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
I think in the end the love/hate can be summed up like this.
The lovers love the concept and that it can do a lot of things well. The haters prefer other sets that do fewer things better. It could use a little buff, maybe add -Regen to PGA or Acid. Maybe lower OSA's recharge to 150. I dunno, just tossing out ideas. But it's still a good set. Not grand, but good. |
For me, when I step way back from Trick Arrow and take in the big picture... my problem is this:
For a set that's all about debuffs, and exclusively about debuffs, there's a noticeable lack of pushing the limits of what debuffs can do in CoH's game mechanics. -Tohit, -defense, -damage, -resistance, -speed? Whoop de doo, the same five debuffs as every other debuff set. No -range? No -secondaryeffects? No +healresistance? No -mezresistance? No -debuffresistance? No +endcost? No -recovery (to targets, I mean, not to yourself)?
What a shame. To have a dedicated debuff set in an 8 year old game and not even attempt to explore debuff mechanics in novel ways. And this has nothing to do with power level or performance. Even if TA were outperforming other sets, it still feels like a huge missed design opportunity.
im having alot of fun with my A/TA Corrupter lately. he's a 42 atm but im real excited for PvP after reading this
The Battle-Ready
Battle-Born
Battle-Born
(this is a response to the original post. I have not read the full thread. Apologies if I kick a dead horse and say things everyone else has)
I ran the numbers awhile back and these were the results.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=262373
Trick arrow is indeed one of the weakest buff/debuff sets, for a number of reasons that are listed in that thread. There are a number of caveats that I need to hit on though.
Firstly, there is no such thing as a useless powerset, barring specific circumstances. Every character in city of heroes has the potential to turn the tide of battle and make the difference between a team wipe and an effortless victory. Trick arrow just has less potential than other sets and requires more work to reach that level of power.
Secondly, there are lots of people that have tons of fun with trick arrow, and many of them are fully aware of its limitations and accept them. If you enjoy trick arrow and do your best to build the character and work on teams, there is no reason to feel like you're mooching.
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I know you might not like this answer, but it doesn't make up for the difference in more debuffs. It makes up for the difference in:|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
For me, when I step way back from Trick Arrow and take in the big picture... my problem is this:
For a set that's all about debuffs, and exclusively about debuffs, there's a noticeable lack of pushing the limits of what debuffs can do in CoH's game mechanics. -Tohit, -defense, -damage, -resistance, -speed? Whoop de doo, the same five debuffs as every other debuff set. No -range? No -secondaryeffects? No +healresistance? No -mezresistance? No -debuffresistance? No +endcost? No -recovery (to targets, I mean, not to yourself)? What a shame. To have a dedicated debuff set in an 8 year old game and not even attempt to explore debuff mechanics in novel ways. And this has nothing to do with power level or performance. Even if TA were outperforming other sets, it still feels like a huge missed design opportunity. |
*Damage--Oil slick is spawn killing
*Control--Can you honestly say that any other defender primary has more control? ST and AOE hold, AOE sleep, AOE slow, ST immob. Dark gives it a run for its money but that's it, and dark doesn't have the damage of TA.
Unfortunately, this is often not what people are looking for in a defender.
I think that it *could* use some mild buffs, but I think many people who play it don't: (a) realize it's late-blooming qualities; and (b) don't play to its strengths.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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Storm.|
Originally Posted by _Ail_
Can you honestly say that any other defender primary has more control?
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I'll concede the point on oil slick damage. Still feels like a wasted design opportunity, though; just like adding damage to Force Fields didn't really make it a less boring set.
(Not to say Trick Arrow's as boring as bubbles, of course.)
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Sorry but Ice Arrow, Entangling Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow, and EMP Arrow are all terrible controls for PvE. Ice Arrow has mediocre duration/recharge/cast ratios and has zero side effects. Entangling Arrow is only ever used for -jump -fly, and you're forced to take it since Flash really is useless. PGA's sleep rarely even works and has a very low duration, so it might as well not even exist. EMP arrow suffers from totally needless handicaps like -Recovery to self and long recharge, which is understandable on controllers but not on defenders, corruptors, and MMs.|
Originally Posted by _Ail_
I know you might not like this answer, but it doesn't make up for the difference in more debuffs. It makes up for the difference in:
*Damage--Oil slick is spawn killing *Control--Can you honestly say that any other defender primary has more control? ST and AOE hold, AOE sleep, AOE slow, ST immob. Dark gives it a run for its money but that's it, and dark doesn't have the damage of TA. Unfortunately, this is often not what people are looking for in a defender. I think that it *could* use some mild buffs, but I think many people who play it don't: (a) realize it's late-blooming qualities; and (b) don't play to its strengths. |
If they ever buff TA, they are going to need to make a distinction between controller and non-controller ATs. They are already doing this for the Dark Miasma port to controllers by removing controls in favor of new powers.
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You are right. Storm is another top contender for control. Not better than TA I would say but definitely up there.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Storm.
I'll concede the point on oil slick damage. Still feels like a wasted design opportunity, though; just like adding damage to Force Fields didn't really make it a less boring set. (Not to say Trick Arrow's as boring as bubbles, of course.) |
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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Storm is not so much a "control" powerset as it is a CHAOS powerset. Storm achieves its "control" functions less by locking things down so much as disrupting them with Gale, Freezing Rain, Herdicane, Tornado and Lightning Storm ... and a lot of that disruption potential involves knockback/knockdown/knockup/repel with a lot of To-hit Debuff thrown in from Hurricane. Storm doesn't "lockdown" Foes in the way that other powersets can with their powers, but it can perma-disrupt groups of hostiles in ways that neutralize their offensive potential.
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Originally Posted by _Ail_
You are right. Storm is another top contender for control. Not better than TA I would say but definitely up there.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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which gives complete safety to those in the eye of the storm.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Storm is not so much a "control" powerset as it is a CHAOS powerset. Storm achieves its "control" functions less by locking things down so much as disrupting them with Gale, Freezing Rain, Herdicane, Tornado and Lightning Storm ... and a lot of that disruption potential involves knockback/knockdown/knockup/repel with a lot of To-hit Debuff thrown in from Hurricane. Storm doesn't "lockdown" Foes in the way that other powersets can with their powers, but it can perma-disrupt groups of hostiles in ways that neutralize their offensive potential.
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Oh I've got a Storm/Dual Pistols Defender myself, and I know all about being in the eye of the Hurricane! And as far as safety goes, it can either be achieved with "lockdown" of mobs (via hard and soft controls) or by "disruption" of mobs (knockdown/up/back, debuffing, etc.) ... but "control" should not be confused with "disruption" since although the net result is effectively the same (you and your team stay alive and fighting longer/better), the means of achieving that goal is radically different in terms of skillset(s) of the player as well as tactics an strategy. Both ways can yield "safety" but do so through totally dissimilar means ... which has very important applications to gameplay.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
For me, TA is a great set. With a lot of things in this game, it's all about how you put it together.
First, redraw is hardly an issue for me simply because most of your arrows are fired at the beginning of battle and most things are ded by the time you need to recast your debuffs.
Second, it gives a very nice range of abilities, with debuffs and controls. Some think the controls are weak (and pga sleep is) but once again it's how you put together a whole concept for your build.
Third, Flash Arrow. For a defender it can give almost 10% defense to the whole team. By itself, not huge but who has no defense on a team?
I've currently started playing my TA/Sonic again and it's a blast. It offers a immob, a single and aoe sleep, hold and stun and a kdown power ala ice slick for controls. It also gives a 31% -dam debuff, 9.8% unresisted tohit debuff, -50% defense (25% auto and 25% needing acc), -62.5% aoe resistance (42.5% from TA) and a crashless nuke that can be up approx every minute. Sounds like a good amount of overall mitigation to me.
I know several of you will say that I'm using Sonic to plug up the holes in TA and you're right. It's not a fantastic control set. It's not a fantastic debuff set, it's not a fantastic defensive set. What it provides is a very good base on all three which allows the player to come up with nice variations and a good overall character.
And Damage. It's a very nice addition. 
I think it was either Hawk or Synapse who mentioned that they were looking at TA, but the only way they were going to update it is by expanding its range or power of debuffs to make it one of the best debuff sets there are, and not by adding more utility or changing mechanics (ala Gravity). And I think I'm ok with that sentiment: TA can and should be a pure debuff set, but it just either has to get inventive with a wider range of potential effects added on (+healresist, -enddiscount, -secondaryeffects, -maxhp, etc). That, and maybe change more of the effects to be on par with Flash Arrow and be unresistable. Having a varied arsenal of mild effects might be fantastic for general teaming, but it loses its luster very quick against hard targets like AVs who start resisting 85% of more of your debuffs.
But as of right now? It's fine, sure. It's pretty middle of the road-ish, and perhaps slightly below average, but it's not like min-maxing is mandatory anyway.
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Do you know where you heard/read that? This is the first I'm hearing about it and I'm really curious.|
Originally Posted by Android_5Point9
I think it was either Hawk or Synapse who mentioned that they were looking at TA, but the only way they were going to update it is by expanding its range or power of debuffs to make it one of the best debuff sets there are, and not by adding more utility or changing mechanics (ala Gravity).
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I'm not exactly sure how TA would be helped by a buff to it's range, though. It'd be like... painting your car because the tires are flat. Yes, it's different than it was before, but the actual issue wasn't addressed.
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I believe it got answered on a ustream. I guess "variety" would be a better word, expanding the capabilities or just flat out increasing the potency of the debuffs. Not literally the range, though.
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
Do you know where you heard/read that? This is the first I'm hearing about it and I'm really curious.
I'm not exactly sure how TA would be helped by a buff to it's range, though. It'd be like... painting your car because the tires are flat. Yes, it's different than it was before, but the actual issue wasn't addressed. |
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Ah, cool. That makes more sense.
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Originally Posted by Android_5Point9
I believe it got answered on a ustream. I guess "variety" would be a better word, expanding the capabilities or just flat out increasing the potency of the debuffs. Not literally the range, though.
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Thread necro ... but it seems appropriate ... /em shrug
Talked to Arbiter Hawk this weekend at the Player Summit and brought up the subject of Trick Arrow, substantially in the context of threads such as this one. The overall sense I got from Arbiter Hawk is that he is substantially "okay" with Trick Arrow and sees the powerset as being "undervalued" by many players. I brought up the weirdness of Flash Arrow's unresistable To Hit Debuff and he specifically addressed that one as something that he wanted to change ... not because of Flash Arrow specifically, but because he has objections/concerns about giving Players anything that is unresistable (which is an understandable concern).
I pointed out that Trick Arrow has debuffs that will not self-stack well/easily and Arbiter Hawk responded that that is not something he'd want to mess with and was done for important reasons he was not eager to overturn. I mentioned long animation times for shooting arrows, and he felt that the animation times were fine as is and didn't need shortening.
We didn't exactly go at it hammer and tongs, since I was more interested in sounding him out on what he thought so as to better appreciate his perspective, rather than challenging him and probing to find out what he was doing (or going to do). But I figure even so little interaction as we had on this subject is something that the community should know about. The bottom line seemed to be that Arbiter Hawk thought that Trick Arrow was substantially "fine" as is and not in need of a great deal of revamp work.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
@ Redlynne
As uneventful that meet might have been at least it is good to know this is where Trick Arrow is going to be. At least now anyone can point someone to this post of yours and squash any debates or complaints. At least now someone can go into build or the set with open eyes knowing exactly what can be expected or not expected.
For sure I will be bookmarking your single post because I know 6 months from now when this comes up at least I can post that. I only wish someone would have asked about Devices for blasters as you did for Trick Arrow.
Again good or bad at least it gives some closure to some of the debates and hopes some players had. To me that is all I always wanted. To have some clarity from Devs when these debate, issues and concerns come up and I would have seen nothing wrong with the Devs just coming into the forums and just being clear to everyone as they were to you at the meet. Because good or bad people are going to complain regardless, but at least you know the facts and it quells many debates and arguments forum posters as well that this stuff can stir up as well.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
I'm personally upset by the implication that TA is "okay", players just "undervalue" it, and Flash Arrow might be too good.
Archers, you have been dismissed.
/sigh
wow slap in the face.
is their an emote for being slapped by the Devs that the 2-3 remaining trick arrow players can get?
/sad
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Sometimes that undervalue is a case of "can't find value" in which case I can only agree but what people intend to get out of something doesn't necessarily equal the design intent of the powerset of which must differ to all others yet be equal to all others ideally. No matter how hard you try to get a cat to fly and a bird to swim down to the bottom of the ocean it just won't happen. So you look at what can happen and make that happen. It's not meant to be a plug and play character in my mind, some team work is required.|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
I'm personally upset by the implication that TA is "okay", players just "undervalue" it, and Flash Arrow might be too good.
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As someone who made a TA so that I could easily tank the game for one, it's not a slap in my face. I have always been reasonably happy with the set and even made another three. It does do things my other defenders can't and for that I am grateful. I do not feel that I need to replace my TA for any particular task, but sometimes I might because of how a team chooses to play. I have been on teams as a Rad and thought "my Bubbler would be better for these guys" so that is nothing new.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
And I lose a little bit more faith in the current powers team.
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I would have had trouble keeping a straight face and would have been forced to excuse myself before I did something very rude.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
The overall sense I got from Arbiter Hawk is that he is substantially "okay" with Trick Arrow and sees the powerset as being "undervalued" by many players.
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I think in the end the love/hate can be summed up like this.
The lovers love the concept and that it can do a lot of things well.
The haters prefer other sets that do fewer things better.
It could use a little buff, maybe add -Regen to PGA or Acid. Maybe lower OSA's recharge to 150. I dunno, just tossing out ideas.
But it's still a good set. Not grand, but good.