Love/Hate for Trick Arrow

I think you don't understand how the purple patch and resistance debuff calculations work when talking about AVs, especially incarnate AVs. You're really only looking at 42.5% or less with purple patch and that's assuming the AV has 0% resistance to start with. 10% resistance seems to be a pretty common minimum, so you're really looking at 38.25% resistance debuff or less. Also 11 seconds is about the overlap time on disruption so you're only doing 38.25% for 11 seconds and 25.2% for 19 seconds, that's 29.99% overall.


As for the scrapper comment, the lowest tier scrapper attacks put out roughly 8 times more dps than OSA does, that's without criticals included. You are pretty much not bringing any significant raw damage from the TA set or your secondary for that matter since you have to take significant time out to reapply your debuffs. The force multiplying only makes a difference if your league is alive and bringing enough damage to make the multiplying worthwhile for the lack of your own damage. Since TA is awful at both damage and mitigation, I would gladly take the sustained dps of a scrapper over a 30% or less damage increase for the entire league.

I wouldn't count them as buffs only because they weren't exclusive to Trick Arrows, not because they weren't popular (and they very much were popular on a set where previously only one power animated at less than 2.67 seconds); the majority of them were shortened when all weapon set animations were shortened. So it wasn't an attempt to improve Trick Arrows, it was just an overall change in weapon sets in general.

IIRC, outside of the mass weapon set changes, there was an early reduction in Entangling Arrow's animation, and then Flash Arrow and Ice Arrow got new, even shorter animations not too long ago.

Other than animation times, let me think (these are what I can remember)...

Entangling Arrow was given a Recharge debuff. Buff

Flash Arrow was made auto-hit. Buff or Bug Fix?

Glue Arrow's recharge timer was reduced to 60s, down from 120s. Buff

Glue Arrow got a -Fly effect. Buff

Glue Arrow stopped fading away after the initial target was defeated. Bug Fix

Poison Gas Arrow's Sleep chance was increased to 66% (up from 1%). Bug Fix

Poison Gas Arrow's Sleep target-limit was increased to 16 (up from 1). Bug Fix

Acid Arrow's ability to slot Damage Resistance enhancements was removed. But they didn't do anything, anyway as DR Enhancements don't effect -Resistance effects. Bug Fix

Disruption Arrow's recharge timer was reduced to 60s, down from 120s. Buff

Disruption Arrow's ability to slot Damage Resistance enhancements was removed. But they didn't do anything, anyway as DR Enhancements don't effect -Resistance effects. Bug Fix

Disruption Arrow's combat spam was fixed (it used to say it was debuffing the caster). Bug Fix

Oil Slick Arrow finally was fixed completely and now lights everytime. Bug Fix

I remember these because, well... I used to post about them all the time till they were fixed. Other than those, I remember there being graphic changes to some powers to improve performance for lower end computers (Glue Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow, Flash Arrow, Oil Slick Arrow... remember when Oil Slick Arrow looked waaay cooler, like a real oil with rainbow sheens in it?).

Anyway, this is why I consider Trick Arrows as having very few performance-related passes. Most of the attention Trick Arrows has ever received has been bug fixes, and I don't consider those buffs; they don't really improve a power, they just bring it up to the level it was supposed to be at.

Trickshooter's Characters | @Trickshooter @Brightside

I was not aware that the purple patch affected resistance debuff but I see that it does from:
http://coh103.gtm.cityofheroes.com/s...&postcount=126
I stand corrected. Note that in general though the way the amount of damage resistance a mob has when it is affected by a damage resistance debuff works out so that (see post I quoted) -X% damage resistance debuffs onto the critter is equivalent to you doing +X% damage. So my current understanding (and I would be thrilled if Arcanaville came in to correct me) is that you first apply the purple patch (see http://coh.coldfront.net/index.php/c.../view/851/107/ for values depending on how much higher level they are than you) to the damage resistance debuff of -X and are left afterwards with a damage resistance debuff of -Y and then (regardless of how much base damage resistance the AV has) you are doing +Y% damage.

As far as disruption arrow, on long AV fights (obviously disregarding the first 15 or so seconds) it consistently double stacks in my build. Maybe you didn't click on the incarnate button to get those effects calculated as well. Also, although I only have it one slotted, I have it one slotted with a +5 lvl 50 IO using enhancement boosters.

When you consider an end game BAF-like situation where you have 1-2 AVs and you can reasonably expect (provided they are reasonable close together so both could be hit with disruption and you can just indidivdually hit both with acid) to have the damage resistance debuffs on both, the TA is contributing a TREMENDOUS amount to the ENTIRE LEAGUES (not just your teams) total damage. I honestly don't see how your scrapper is keeping up.

As far as the lower tier scrapper attacks, that is an unfair comparison for several reasons: (1) They tend not to be AOE like oil slick and certainly are not as wide an AOE in any case; (2) Oil slick's main limitation would be its recharge in this situation (about 45 sec) so that it's total contribution would be dps related as in (total damage)/recharge; (3) The amount of time necessary for the TA to do this would be rather minor as it would be just setting the slick and lighting it; (4) The scrapper contribution would probably be more DPA related and in point of fact would require the scrapper's whole attention to keep going as you would figure out their optimal attack chain.

I guess we can just agree to disagree on this. Tankish characters are still very useful with some of the nasty hard-hitting AVs. I think it is actually a shame that scrappers/blasters don't contribute more in end game trials. The way it currently seems to work though is that the multiplication effect of the (de)buffers just gets even more crazy when you have whole leagues working on things.

If you think Scrappers and Blasters don't contribute much in incarnate trials, then I feel sorry for you because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

I went and did a quick powerset comparison comparing Scrapper Scorch, to Oil Slick. Now the average DPS of Scorch at base was 17.39. Oil Slick was just 1.38. 8 * 1.38 = 11.04 which is well under 17.39 but I am not exactly seeing what you are seeing.Oil Slick hits 16 so we take that as a potential and go 16*1.38 = 22.08 Factor in another cast time to light perhaps and you are bang on but then there is the area to do so and the ability to debuff all in trying to keep up with the Joneses.

The mission where you go into you memory of the future and defeat all them Echoes. My Trick Archer was much, much quicker at it than my best Scrapper. Each time I'd pull all the echoes into the tightest group possible then AoE the snot out of them. The time from when I start to AoE to the time I finished is fight duration. My TA did this amazingly fast, like wow, no way?! Was that it?

I think what might of not been so good for my Scrapper is in how tightly packed I needed to get them all. Scrappers are meant to lead in raw DPS, that is part and parcel of what they bring to the table however getting enough mobs into the space of a dump cart is key to achieving it for some primaries.

I'm still of the opinion that Archery and Trick Archery animations should all be 1 second long ... with the exception of Rain of Arrows (which is fine with its longer, more cinematic animation) and Ranged Shot (because it's a Snipe). It's not like we're pulling out an arrow from the quiver (we'd need quivers for that!), then grabbing a grenade warhead from out Bat Belts, screwing the warhead onto the arrow, stringing the bow, nocking the arrow onto the string, adjusting the targeting sight, drawing the bow, and then finally ... FINALLY!!! ... after the target is long since dead, admitting that we just look too damn cool for skool ... and loosing the arrow shot. We really ought to be shooting "Legolas Fast" with 1 second animations for just about everything involving a Bow (again, except for Rain of Arrows and Ranged Shot) ... rather than drawing the bow, and then "admiring" the arrowhead until we get tired of holding the pose (and finally shoot).

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

I'm still wondering why EMP Arrow costs so much endurance. I saw Green Arrow use it on Smallville once and he didn't break into a sweat.

Don't know where you're getting your numbers but here are the in-game numbers (that also match Mid's).

OSA (Solo)
base damage = 75 ticks * 3.34 = 250.5 damage
base recharge = 180 seconds
cast time = 1.16 seconds
base dps = 250.5 / (180+1.16) = 1.38
3xrechg/3xdmg SO slotted dps + 30% vig = 563 / (92.34+1.16) = 6.02

OSA (teamed)
slotted dps = 487.8 / (92.34+1.16) = 5.22

Scorch
base damage = 71.33
base recharge = 3
cast time = 1
base dps = 71.33 / (3+1) = 17.83
acc/3xdmg/2xrechg SO slotted dps = 142/(1.8+1) = 50.71

Fire Sword Circle
base damage = 122.02
base recharge = 20
cast time = 2.67
base dps = 122.02 (20+2.67) = 5.38
acc/3xdmg/2xrechg SO slotted dps = 247/(12+2.67) = 16.84

scorch/OSA(solo) dps = 50.71 / 6.02 = 8.42 times higher
scorch/OSA(team) dps = 50.71 / 5.22 = 9.72 times higher
FSC/OSA(solo) dps = 16.84 / 6.02 = 2.8 times higher
FSC/OSA(team) dps = 16.84 / 5.22 = 3.23 times higher

That should clarify my previous post's numbers and statement.

You were responding to a quote talking about TA's effectiveness on Incarnate trial AVs.

Not quite. Resistance debuffs first remove the existing resistance. So if the target has 30% resistance to a damage type and you apply -30% resistance, you first reduce them to 0% resistance. This means that you're transforming 70% damage to 100% damage, an increase of 43%. However, beyond this point resistance debuffs are pretty much just like damage buffs.

However, debuffs are crippled against AVs not only with the "purple patch" but also due to the inherent resistance against debuffs possessed by AVs. Realistically, that 60% resistance debuff is probably only reducing resistance by 24% while a 60% damage buff on an ally is providing full value.

In general, the tougher your team the better buffs become and the tougher your opponents the weaker debuffs become.

Against tough endgame content, most of the debuffs should be coming from offensive sets (not support sets). A Sonic Blaster is better than any Defender at removing damage resistance from an AV/GM (a */Sonic Defender has technically larger resist debuffs on the nukes, but he can't relentlessly pound away like the Blaster can since he has buff/debuff responsibilities in primary).

The only major debuff you're really concerned about is also one Trick Arrow doesn't get: -regen (EMP Arrow doesn't count here).

No one was arguing that the total damage contribution of the Scrapper was more than the total damage contribution of a Defender. They were arguing that the damage directly dealt by the Scrapper was significantly greater than the damage directly dealt by the Defender - which is absolutely true. Oil Slick Arrow going "boom" may seem impressive, but it's peanuts compared to what your Scrapper is relentlessly piling on the AV.

As noted above, that triple-stacked resistance debuff ends up being more like 24% increased damage. Which is nice, but not really in the same league as Fulcrum Shift, Accelerate Metabolism, Chrono Shift, or any of a number of other buffs (even accounting for them only affecting a single team).

Look at it this way: if that 24% increased damage from damage resistance debuffs was truly significant, everyone would be playing /Sonic.

First of all, you need something to multiply in the first place. The support characters don't actually deal all that much damage themselves (compared to the scrappers/blasters).

Second of all, you run up against buff/debuff caps. Consider that a single Sonic Blaster is going to take 80% of the 300% you have allocated to damage resistance debuffs, and you're taking another 60%. So two players have gotten you halfway to the cap on a very common debuff category.

Lastly, the multiplying effect has diminishing returns. If your target is current at -240% resistance and you bring them down to -300% resist, you've only increased the damage being dealt to them by 17.6% (rather than 60%).

What this all means in practical terms is that you want to bring the fewest - and greatest impact - support classes you can amongst a sea of folks who do little except pile on massive amounts of damage.

I don't think you understand the mechanics of this. Let me try an example:

Say an attack does 50 damage fires against a foe with 30% resistance to that damage type. So you would normally do 50*(1-.3)=35 damage.

But suppose the foe is even level so purple patch does not come into play and you hit him with a -20% resistance debuff. Then his new resistance is (see http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Damage_Resistance)
16%=(30-20+[20*.30])%

So when we now do the same attack against the debuffed enemy it does
50+(1-.16)=42 damage.

And the key thing to note here is that this is the same as a buff of 20% to the original damage of 35 because
35*(1+.2)=42.

See wiki and my previously quoted Arcanaville post.

Ignoring purple patch, which you should factor in before to figure out the actual debuff amount, resistance debuffs of -Y% act exactly like damage buffs of +Y% regardless of how much resistance the guy you are fighting has.

you got the resistance part right but you seem to not understand that damage buffs increase damage from the base damage, not from the final amount.

here is scrapper Hack (broadsword) with 95% dmg from enhancements.
base damage (x) = 55.6102
melee AT mod (y) = 1.125
Damage scalar (z) = 1.64
Raw dmg (RD) = x * y * z = 102.60
Enh dmg (ED) = RD*( 1 + 0.95 ) = 200.07

Let's put it up against an even lvl AV (+5 con) with 30% damage resistance to Lethal.
Purple patch mod (PP) = 0.3
FINAL = ED * PP * ( 1 - 0.3 ) = 42.01 dmg dealt

ok now let's calculate it with a -20% res debuff.
FINAL = ED * PP * [ 1 - ( 0.3 - PP * 0.2 * ( 1 - 0.3 ) ) ] = 44.54 dmg dealt

ok now with no res debuffs but a +20% dmg buff instead.
buffed damage (BD) = RD * ( 1 + 0.95 + 0.2 ) = 220.59
FINAL = BD * PP * ( 1 - 0.3 ) = 46.32 dmg dealt

As I've just proven, a -20% res debuff is not equivalent to a +20% dmg buff.

You like to argue, don't you?

If you look (not far, in this very thread!) you will see that I am perfectly aware of the fact that damage buffs just increase base damage...

Thanks! You're the best!

It is worth pointing out that Damage Buffs only go so high.

Really, it's better to have both buffers and debuffers on a team.

I do have a higher level TA/A Defender and I'm working on a new A/TA Corruptor. In my experance (And bare with me, as the only other high level defender I have is a Dark/Dark/Soul) it is effective as a toolbox set. Glue Arrow is great for keeping a mob close together for AoE goodness, and no worries about missing like with an Immobilize. -Recharge on the baddies benifits everyone as this reduces the amout of DPS they can put out. Flash Arrow is good for stealthing and reduces To Hit, more or less adding defense to everyone. Acid Arrow does both -Res (As does Disruption Arrow) and -Def, making everything easier to hit. Rain of Arrows is crashless, and Oil Slick Arrow adds knockdown control on top of damage. Ice and Entangling Arrows add some extra control, and EMP is a mass hold for panic moments, and zaps any opposing robots (Warworks, Clockwork).

That being said it cannot buff or heal, as stated AVs are less effected by debuffs, it's best power (Oil Slick Arrow) is on a long, long timer and with anything BUT Archery you will be subject to lots of redraw (If you happen to hate that). It's not perfect, it's not the best, but it does it's job, it does it's job very well and above all, and this is important, it's a lot of fun to play.

Shall we compare to Dark miasma? Tar patch does a mass slow and -res in one power where TA does in 2 powers, Glue arrow and Disruption arrow. Darkest night does -dmg and -tohit where as TA does it in two powers with inferior numbers, Flash and PGA. You see where I'm going here?

It also doesn't help that all the debuff values for TA powers are bad, really bad. Flash only does -6.25% tohit compared to -18.75% in darkest night. likewise PGA only does -31.25% dmg compared to darkest night's -37.5%. Disruption (20%) vs Tar patch (30%), Glue (-20%) vs howling twilight (-62.5%), Flash (6.25%) vs Fearsome stare (18.75%).

If they want to fix the TA set, they'll have to either buff the debuff values to be on par or higher than other debuff sets and/or combine Flash, PGA, Glue, and Acid into 2 separate powers.

If they just went with buffing, this is what I would do:
- Flash arrow should be increase to 13% while still being unresistable, should would make it 3-4% less than FF ally bubbles when slotted. At minimum should be a base of 11% unresistable.
- Acid and Disruption should be -30% not -20%, since that's the standard for debuff sets and TA completely lacks dmg and recharge buffs.
- Glue arrow should have -90% recharge not -20%
- PGA either be increased to -40% OR have it's sleep effect changed to a mag 1 hold that always hits. It also should have a non-stacking -500% regen effect.
- Remove the -recovery and -end on self effect of EMP arrow cause it has no right being there in the first place. The long recharge is more than enough of a handicap.
- add a decent damage DoT to entangling arrow to make it worth firing.
- make Ice Arrow's recharge 10 not 18 OR trim the cast time down to 1 and make the recharge 14. Also add some minor cold damage to it, enabling more IO proc options.

Trickshooter's Characters | @Trickshooter @Brightside

On the -Recharge, yeah, but it's easier to perma Glue Arrow that Howling Twilight. Tar Patch (Def Values) is 30% -Res while Disruption and Acid Arrows are -20% each (Also Def Values). To be fair, Acid Arrow has a chance of not landing, while both Tar Patch and Disruption Arrow will work, no questions asked.

It's still not the best, and it's only 'weakest' when you compare it to what sets like Kin, Dark Miasma and Traps can do. On it's own merits it works very well.

When I mentioned Tar Patch, I said on any other AT.

Corruptors, Controllers, and Masterminds' Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow are all -15% Resistance.

Corruptors, Controllers, and Masterminds' Tar Patch is -30% Resistance, just like the Defender version.

So for every other AT with access to TA, they use two powers to equal the same level of -Resistance that several other sets (Dark, Storm, Cold, even Poison if you use Envenom more than once on close enemies!) get with a single power. It's an annoying issue I'm currently pushing to have remedied.

TA is OK in the sense that it does what it's supposed to do. But it most cases for the 4 different ATs that use it, it's debuff values are either equal or weaker than other sets. And like I said, the only debuff that it is consistently better at than any other powerset is -MovementSpeed.

It needs some love, and even Synapse agrees (though he said any changes will be at least a year away, sadly).

Trickshooter's Characters | @Trickshooter @Brightside

Yeah, okay. That's a fair asessment. A little love will really help it out.

Still a good toolbox set though.