I would of asked Synapse instead...Arbiter Hawk is pretty Rigid about certain things. *looks around cautiously*.
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After I got done "monopolizing" Arbiter Hawk (one of the times) and let him wander off to talk to other people (besides just me), someone who'd been hanging around for the conversation asked me, "why didn't you talk to him about Blasters?!?"|
Originally Posted by plainguy
I only wish someone would have asked about Devices for blasters as you did for Trick Arrow.
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To which my response was simply that I don't play Blasters ... I don't have a "Blaster Mentality" to my playstyle ... and I'm am not fully conversant with the issues the Blaster Community has identified for their AT, or the powersets their AT uses. I then pointed out that because of all that, I would make a very poor advocate for Blaster issues and concerns, simply because I am not steeped in the brew of their conventional wisdom.
Ironically enough, that seemed to be a quite satisfactory answer for why I never "got into it" with Arbiter Hawk on powersets like Devices. I did however notice a Blaster friend of mine going hammer and tongs on why Time Bomb was a piece of excrement for a power that was in all ways inferior to Trip Mine ...
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
I'm personally upset by the implication that TA is "okay", players just "undervalue" it, and Flash Arrow might be too good.
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Note that removing the Unresistable aspect of Flash Arrow's ToHit Debuff would mean that it would need to be put "on par" with the ToHit Debuff baseline we often see in other powersets (such as Dark and Storm, for example). Doing so would increase the "relevance" of Flash Arrow in 99% of the game while reducing it in 1% of the game (ie. PToD battles). I personally consider that not only a fair tradeoff, but also an improvement to the power overall ... since there's more to life than Flashing mobs protected by PToD.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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I personally disagree. Flash arrows unresistable aspect is one of the big selling points of the entire set. Actively used, it's doing almost the same amount of work as Weave and Combat Jumping combined for defenders. It's just doing that work for the whole team and in all situations. Both of those powers are among the most used in the game if you go by the builds seen in the forums (I personally use them on most of my chars). Adding those, you are over 20 defense to everything (using an equivalence of -tohit and Def). |
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Note that removing the Unresistable aspect of Flash Arrow's ToHit Debuff would mean that it would need to be put "on par" with the ToHit Debuff baseline we often see in other powersets (such as Dark and Storm, for example). Doing so would increase the "relevance" of Flash Arrow in 99% of the game while reducing it in 1% of the game (ie. PToD battles). I personally consider that not only a fair tradeoff, but also an improvement to the power overall ... since there's more to life than Flashing mobs protected by PToD.
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I'm not saying that TA is a superfantastic set, but FA seems to be a very good power the way it is.
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I agree, and this is what I originally proposed in my buff/debuff set rebalance proposal some time ago, but I changed it once I realized that most trick arrow players in the boards here prefer the power to have unique mechanics from other powers. I personally value intuitiveness in powers a lot, but uniqueness is important too, so I only disagree with them mildly.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Note that removing the Unresistable aspect of Flash Arrow's ToHit Debuff would mean that it would need to be put "on par" with the ToHit Debuff baseline we often see in other powersets (such as Dark and Storm, for example). Doing so would increase the "relevance" of Flash Arrow in 99% of the game while reducing it in 1% of the game (ie. PToD battles). I personally consider that not only a fair tradeoff, but also an improvement to the power overall ... since there's more to life than Flashing mobs protected by PToD.
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I don't have time to get into a long post, but I have never found it proper to compare one power of one set to another power of another directly. The entire set has to be compared. It's the combination of effects that can be applied to a number of groups over time. The -tohit mixed with the -rechg and the -dam matters. Then there is specific advantages like anchorless debuffing, Oil Slick and its DPS overtime potential versus 16 mobs and EMP. Some powers can become OP on some archetypes if you're not careful. We all know TA works well on Controllers when it comes to control.|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
These are not issues that will go away if I alter my playstyle. There is a level of unfairness when it comes to the Trick Arrows set caused by needless penalties and inconsistences. The set is only "okay" if you ignore them.
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As for Devices, regarding peoples last couple of posts. Changing Timebomb maybe the only fair change left. /Devices has its niche as Blaster sets go, some people are well why not make a /Traps as it's better. I am less likely to use Mines or Timebomb with a /Traps because I am less likely to need to when solo, so despite having the two, my playstyle isn't the same, my experience against a faction isn't the same and so the way I have to go about things isn't the same.
What's better is a matter of opinion, are things better because they make life easier? Are things better because you don't have the trapper mindset, never liked rogues in some DnD game or simply from comparing one power to another? I like to jump on as many different characters and be challenged differently myself. As long as I can see something as having the means to provide adequacy for a thinking mans team then I'll be alright.
I'd expect to tank the entire inner circle together using a TA for support. It's not something I can say when it comes to all defenders. I'd call that a Pro whilst some other defender gets a Con for me not being able to suggest that. I am more interested in what can and can't be done than figures.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Relevant to this discussion: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=262373
Slightly outdated since thermal is now a defender set. Damage debuff from heat exhaustion is 62.5% instead of the estimated 50%
Sonic Resonance's Liquefy has -Recharge? I did not know this. o.O
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I just think the devs should examine powers that they won't give to PVE mobs. They know those powers suck but they saddle players with them.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I don't have time to get into a long post, but I have never found it proper to compare one power of one set to another power of another directly. The entire set has to be compared. It's the combination of effects that can be applied to a number of groups over time. The -tohit mixed with the -rechg and the -dam matters. Then there is specific advantages like anchorless debuffing, Oil Slick and its DPS overtime potential versus 16 mobs and EMP. Some powers can become OP on some archetypes if you're not careful. We all know TA works well on Controllers when it comes to control.
As for Devices, regarding peoples last couple of posts. Changing Timebomb maybe the only fair change left. /Devices has its niche as Blaster sets go, some people are well why not make a /Traps as it's better. I am less likely to use Mines or Timebomb with a /Traps because I am less likely to need to when solo, so despite having the two, my playstyle isn't the same, my experience against a faction isn't the same and so the way I have to go about things isn't the same. What's better is a matter of opinion, are things better because they make life easier? Are things better because you don't have the trapper mindset, never liked rogues in some DnD game or simply from comparing one power to another? I like to jump on as many different characters and be challenged differently myself. As long as I can see something as having the means to provide adequacy for a thinking mans team then I'll be alright. I'd expect to tank the entire inner circle together using a TA for support. It's not something I can say when it comes to all defenders. I'd call that a Pro whilst some other defender gets a Con for me not being able to suggest that. I am more interested in what can and can't be done than figures. |
Gun Drone is an excellent example. Why do Malta have one version and the players another? Because the devs know that the PLAYER version is unworkable for the mobs. That should be a huge clue to them that it is not good as a player power either, yet we still have a disparity.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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While true, it's been demonstrated that TA's debuff values are lowermuch lower in some casesthan other debuff sets. TA seems to get a wide variety of debuff types at the cost of major reductions in effectiveness for a number of them. To take the debuffs you bring up, only -damage is comparable to that available to other defender primaries. TA's -tohit and -recharge values aren't even in the same league as other defender debuff primaries; in fact, they're inferior to corresponding secondary effects in defender blast sets.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I don't have time to get into a long post, but I have never found it proper to compare one power of one set to another power of another directly. The entire set has to be compared. It's the combination of effects that can be applied to a number of groups over time. The -tohit mixed with the -rechg and the -dam matters.
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| Then there is specific advantages like anchorless debuffing, Oil Slick and its DPS overtime potential versus 16 mobs and EMP. |
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| Some powers can become OP on some archetypes if you're not careful. We all know TA works well on Controllers when it comes to control. |
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In what way or ways is the player version unworkable for the mobs?
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I just think the devs should examine powers that they won't give to PVE mobs. They know those powers suck but they saddle players with them.
Gun Drone is an excellent example. Why do Malta have one version and the players another? Because the devs know that the PLAYER version is unworkable for the mobs. That should be a huge clue to them that it is not good as a player power either, yet we still have a disparity. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by Happy_Thoughts
While true, it's been demonstrated that TA's debuff values are lowermuch lower in some casesthan other debuff sets. TA seems to get a wide variety of debuff types at the cost of major reductions in effectiveness for a number of them. To take the debuffs you bring up, only -damage is comparable to that available to other defender primaries. TA's -tohit and -recharge values aren't even in the same league as other defender debuff primaries; in fact, they're inferior to corresponding secondary effects in defender blast sets.
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I don't believe in this copy and paste comparison. There is a design intent for the whole of the build. As you play a TA you should be using your powers as and when needed, there is an optimum state of play. Each power should stack not directly but indirectly quite quickly. There isn't some of the long cast times other defenders have, there isn't the need to worry about whether or not the anchor gets killed or runs off. Then there are controls as part of the set. The Trick Archer in a team should be defending differently to other sets. Teams should be able to survive with the help of a Defender, whatever the Defender can potentially do not as a complete result of one. People seem to look at the debuffs till the cows come home completely ignoring the potential aoe dps over time of Oil Slick or the level of control a TA can knockout.
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Originally Posted by Happy_Thoughts
Anchorless debuffing isn't inherently an advantage, it's just different. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, which mostly depend on playstyle. Oil Slick Arrow is definitely sexy, though whether on its own it makes up for the set's shortcomings is a matter of opinion.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I've participated in discussions with you about this enough times before to know that you don't. The numbers are irrelevant to you. You feel that trick arrow is serviceable for your purposes when you play it, therefore it must be objectively adequate.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
I don't believe in this copy and paste comparison.
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In my opinion, with the way buffs/debuffs stack in this game I can see why the devs are not really leaning on "improving" Trick Arrow. The playerbase obviously feels differently, but Trick Arrow gives us a glimpse of what the dev team feels overall not just for that power set but others as well. In other words, if Trick Arrow is the base line, it is possible other power sets are above and beyond what the devs feel is acceptable.
Lots of assumptions on my part, but seems reasonable.
Ehhh, recently I've become more and more convinced that there is no base line for any set type and numbers are just kind of gut feeling'd. I've come to this hypothesis based on the power creep in defense sets and how terribly beast mastery missed the mark.
I spoke to Arbiter Hawk and feel much better now.
He said when he referred to Trick Arrows being "undervalued" he meant in the sense that the set required a lot of skill to be used effectively. He followed this up with, "That is to say, there is a large delta in performance between a new player to the powerset and a longtime player with a tricked-out build."
Anyway, after that, he agreed that Trick Arrows is a set in need of either numerical help or an improvement in terms of what it brings to a team, and that it was a set he definitely wanted to look at when he had the time (it and Force Fields are his highest candidates to be reviewed among the support sets).
I like him! ^_^
Considering that I wasn't on Arbiter Hawk's "case" for all that long about Trick Arrow (although I did make sure to at least mention it!) this does make for some welcome additional insight/clarification as to his thoughts on the powerset (and not while he's being besieged by players at a Summit). I'll admit that I too was somewhat "Wait, wha?" by his "undervalued" comment, but didn't pursue it as far as you did Trickshooter, so that's most appreciated too.
And yeah, Arbiter Hawk is pretty cool ... but you do need to make sure you're reading/writing on the same page as he is quite a bit.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Nice to know trick arrows and forcefield are gonna be worked on. Hopefully sonic is under evaluation as well. Literally just got my trick arrow/dual pistols defender to 50. The number increase could be awesome for trials!
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Heart! I'm glad to be made wrong. I agree with muse on sonic being third on my list after those two. Poison would be, except it was just evaluated.
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
(it and Force Fields are his highest candidates to be reviewed among the support sets).
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Oh hell yes, but didn't they say it might be a year before they can look at anything?
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
I spoke to Arbiter Hawk and feel much better now.
He said when he referred to Trick Arrows being "undervalued" he meant in the sense that the set required a lot of skill to be used effectively. He followed this up with, "That is to say, there is a large delta in performance between a new player to the powerset and a longtime player with a tricked-out build." Anyway, after that, he agreed that Trick Arrows is a set in need of either numerical help or an improvement in terms of what it brings to a team, and that it was a set he definitely wanted to look at when he had the time (it and Force Fields are his highest candidates to be reviewed among the support sets). I like him! ^_^ |
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
I tell you what would be amazing. Add a power called Empty Quiver that become available once you hit level 8 or so that essentially unloads all your target style debuffs at the same time. So say for example that Glue Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow and Flash Arrow were charged and you click Empty Quiver and it makes all 3 powers activate at the same time. The tech exists with DP select ammo to have more power icons appear with just one power choice. It would also give Trick Arrow something no other set has. This power would also alleviate complaints that Trick Arrow has to spend more time to accomplish what other sets do with less powers and give players more options.
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You actually do not need a tricked out build with Trick Archers, a build full of SOs can still work. Perhaps power pools such as leaderships and med pool are a little bit more enticing to round the character off enough for teams that do not play right around a TA and that's pretty much it. There is a little gulf between those that know what to do for a Trick Archer in order to help the Trick Archer help them best. I put this down to sheer laziness or apathy. Too lazy to work the game out or too apathetic to care about other concepts and how they work.|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
"That is to say, there is a large delta in performance between a new player to the powerset and a longtime player with a tricked-out build."
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Some people can't adapt themselves to something, they need that something adapted to suit them. Incarnates are still being developed and I find that they can help with slotting issues and aid in flexibility which can solve problems. I put much down to players seeing problems but none within themselves.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
As someone who made a TA so that I could easily tank the game for one, it's not a slap in my face. I have always been reasonably happy with the set and even made another three. It does do things my other defenders can't and for that I am grateful. I do not feel that I need to replace my TA for any particular task, but sometimes I might because of how a team chooses to play. I have been on teams as a Rad and thought "my Bubbler would be better for these guys" so that is nothing new.
Here are the facts, regardless of how much you enjoy the set:
1) Entangling Arrow, Ice Arrow, and Glue Arrow are intentionally weak at causing -Recharge because the set had "too much" originally. 7 years later, 5 out of 7 support sets added to the game cause more -Recharge with less powers, but TA's has never been revisited.
2) Flash Arrow, or any -perception power has very little value in a support set. And -Perception's uses are so few and far between that it's inappropriate as a level 1/2 power choice.
3) Glue Arrow is now completely outdone by a power in the Time set: Distortion Field. Distortion Field has over triple the debuff, a chance to hold, and even causes a single percent more -RunSpeed. The only price it pays is that the debuff isn't sticky, it doesn't cause -Fly, and costs twice the endurance. I would gladly lose Glue Arrow's broken -Fly, sticky debuff, and lower end cost if it meant I could actually have a significant effect on foes Recharge speeds.
4) Acid Arrow is now completely outdone by a power in the Traps set: Acid Mortar. Acid Mortar causes more -Defense, more -Resistance, does more damage, fires faster than Acid Arrow recharges, can be summoned more than once for stacking (easily done with just SOs), and can even draw some aggro (it even has some pretty decent resistances to stay alive longer).
5) Disruption Arrow costs way too much endurance (double that of Tar Patch), hits too few foes (only 10), and is intentionally the weakest AoE -Resistance because TA has two. Without excessive slotting, TA can use two powers to debuff 10 foes in an 8 foot radius by -40% Resistance. Dark? One power, debuffs 16 enemies in a 25 foot radius by -30% Resistance, and also slows. Storm? One power, debuffs 16 enemies in a 25 foot radius by -35% Resistance, and also lowers defense, does damage, causes knockdown,, slows, and debuffs Recharge speed.
6) All of that I said in #5? Only true on Defenders. Corruptors, Controllers and Masterminds will only get -30% Resistance. Dark and Storm values? Unchanged, they get to use the same pets as the Defender. So for Corruptors, Controllers and Masterminds, they need to use 2 powers to perform close to the level of other sets (and they still come out worse because of Disruption Arrow's target limit and Acid Arrow's radius).
These are not issues that will go away if I alter my playstyle. There is a level of unfairness when it comes to the Trick Arrows set caused by needless penalties and inconsistences. The set is only "okay" if you ignore them.
Edit: I just want to add that I don't want to come across as personally attacking anyone. I am just frustrated to hear that any dev could look at TA and dismiss things such as the list above, and then say that the only problem the set seems to have is being "undervalued" by players. And Arbiter Hawk's statement (if he was quoted correctly) doesn't fit with Synapse's comment that the set was in need of love. This is all just disappointing to see.