The difference between 32.5% with resists and soft cap without
By
Arbegla,
Posted on: 2011-12-08 17:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
The point of 32.5% defense is that it is 12.5% defense away from the 45% softcap, or in other words, 1 small purple inspiration. |
Originally Posted by ShadowNate
So this has been a question for me for some time but I have been trying to work out if one would get comparable mileage out of having moderate defense+resists in 50+% range as one would get if they were softcap'd to either S/L/E/N , Just Melee (or any one position) or even all positions.
I can't really do math for beans but if I understand the mechanics correctly if you have 32.5% you will be roughly getting hit one in four times, if you have 50% resists to all damage types present in that attack you will only take have half of any damage that manages to get past that defense.. Does that mean its as effective as having 43% defense (where you would be hit only 1 in 8 times)? Sorry if this is abit of a confusing post. I have not made a build for a resist set in quite awhile and I am looking at either having S/L at softcap (with E/R being in the 30's) or having a very wide spread of defenses in the 30 range so I can tune more performance into my primary. |
This can save you alot of slots and/or money not getting your build to softcap letting you improve in other areas, and still allowing an easy softcap on demand by popping a small purple inspiration if the situation calls for having higher defense.
Thats understandable but it feels -weird- to me, maybe I am just too spoiled by /shield.
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The brute in my latest video was built to 32.5% S/L/E/N.
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I would take 32.5% with resists over softcap without any day.
It is super easy to make up that defense difference with one luck, but takes a lot more oranges to make up that resist difference.
On top of that, +Defense bonuses in teams are waaay more common than +Resist bonuses. Resistance, all the way.
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Nice little thing for those long-time vets like me, small purple insps give me 13.125 or something like that. So I can strive for 31.8 or so and get the same mileage.
Meanwhile, experience has shown me that 45% SL vs 32~+Resists is almost a zero-sum game in terms of survival, but the latter is cheaper and strains the build less.
Quote:
Keep in mind that the base to hit for most foes in the game is 50% ... you will get hit half the time with +0% defense and for 'full' damage with 0% resistance.|
Originally Posted by ShadowNate
So this has been a question for me for some time but I have been trying to work out if one would get comparable mileage out of having moderate defense+resists in 50+% range as one would get if they were softcap'd to either S/L/E/N , Just Melee (or any one position) or even all positions.
I can't really do math for beans but if I understand the mechanics correctly if you have 32.5% you will be roughly getting hit one in four times, if you have 50% resists to all damage types present in that attack you will only take have half of any damage that manages to get past that defense.. Does that mean its as effective as having 43% defense (where you would be hit only 1 in 8 times)? Sorry if this is abit of a confusing post. I have not made a build for a resist set in quite awhile and I am looking at either having S/L at softcap (with E/R being in the 30's) or having a very wide spread of defenses in the 30 range so I can tune more performance into my primary. |
32.5% is also closer to getting hit 1 in 5 times (base 50%-32.5%=17.5% >> which is just under 20% hit rate, which is 1 in 5.). Or vs the "Incarnate soft cap" roughly 1 in 3 (64%-32.5=31.5%). http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
And not mentioned so far in this particular thread on the subject ... you get hit and the threat of getting mez/debuffed also normally occurs even with 90% resistance to the damage. Conversely misses also usually mean no chance of getting any mez/debuff carried by the attack.
Just to add some anecdotal evidence to the numbercrunching...
Most of my squishies are range defense capped, and I solo pylons routinely with them. Pylons attacks are aoe typed. The thing is, even though they only have about 25 aoe defense, between debuffs and ~60% resistance the pylon scarcely does enough damage to overcome their natural regen. The chance of dying is literally nil as long as I'm not AFK. On the other hand my fire/kin with 0 resist and 45 S/L/E, though she can solo pylons without lore pets, still has a very small chance of dying from the pylon landing 3 hits in a row. She's also the flimsiest of all my support squishies.
Quote:
I don't know how that can possibly be in terms of the numbers. The difference in damage between 45 and 35 (just to keep the math easier) is 3X. You'd need 66% resist to equal that, and I doubt you get that cheaply.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Meanwhile, experience has shown me that 45% SL vs 32~+Resists is almost a zero-sum game in terms of survival, but the latter is cheaper and strains the build less.
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I think you're eating a ton of purples and ignoring that when comparing survivability.
Quote:
I don't doubt him at all. Let's assume he only gets 40% resist. It's not hard to do with epic shields and tough. It may be less overall mitigation, but it takes away the streaky nature of just defense.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
I don't know how that can possibly be in terms of the numbers. The difference in damage between 45 and 35 (just to keep the math easier) is 3X. You'd need 66% resist to equal that, and I doubt you get that cheaply.
I think you're eating a ton of purples and ignoring that when comparing survivability. |
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
But if he's doing an epic resist shield it's not going to be easy to get 32.5 in def without the epic def shield. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I don't doubt him at all. Let's assume he only gets 40% resist. It's not hard to do with epic shields and tough. It may be less overall mitigation, but it takes away the streaky nature of just defense.
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I mean, he said "the latter is cheaper and strains the build less", and if he got to 32.5 without an epic def shield (and is an AT that gets an epic shield), then it would be no more of a cost or strain to take the epic def shield instead and hit 45 than to take the tough and stay at 32.5.
There is no way to reconcile your interpretation with his "cheaper and strains the build less" comment.
Very true. Hmmm.
Could be a support type with ffg or foresight?
I need a mids app for this phone... Then I could give you a better answer.
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Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I was assuming it was referring to a melee character on a resistance set rather than a squishy with extra resistance, but a Demon Summoning/Sonic (or /Pain) Mastermind would be able to get a decent amount of resistance without sacrificing anything on the build and could go for defense set bonuses, and anything with Time Manipulation, Force Field, or Traps isn't sacrificing anything (well, other than buff/debuff set choice) to have decent defense.
Although then you're in the realm of "why not just aim for the softcap" with a secondary providing good defense.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
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The problem with that, is that you'd be comparing 45+good resist vs 32.5+same good resist. There is still no point where you are making a choice to tradeoff between def and resist enough to make 45+nothing vs 32.5+good resist a valid comparison to make.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I was assuming it was referring to a melee character on a resistance set rather than a squishy with extra resistance, but a Demon Summoning/Sonic (or /Pain) Mastermind would be able to get a decent amount of resistance without sacrificing anything on the build and could go for defense set bonuses
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Quote:
Until you consider DDR.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
There is still no point where you are making a choice to tradeoff between def and resist enough to make 45+nothing vs 32.5+good resist a valid comparison to make.
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Without DDR, that 45% defense will be trashed with 1 or 2 defense debuffs, causing cascading failure, and usually death.
The 32.5% defense + resistance will still suffer cascading failure, but the resistance will act like a stopgap preventing all the incoming damage from hitting (due to resisting it) and allowing you to better recover from any cascading failures.
Quote:
No, you didn't understand my post.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Until you consider DDR.
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There is no character build where you are going to be picking between those two extreme options, so comparing them is pointless. You can make your argument, but it's never going to be a choice that anyone is going to be in the position to make in the game, so it's moot.
Quote:
Maybe the query is in regards to two different builds? E.g. someone is debating between a Fire/Time and a Fire/Sonic.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
No, you didn't understand my post.
There is no character build where you are going to be picking between those two extreme options, so comparing them is pointless. You can make your argument, but it's never going to be a choice that anyone is going to be in the position to make in the game, so it's moot. |
Or it's a Dark/Storm/Cold support user, who CAN swing either way in an appreciable fashion via pools and Epics.
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/traps MM. Taking the scorpion shield, for softcapped defense, or the Mu shield for defense + resistance.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
No, you didn't understand my post.
There is no character build where you are going to be picking between those two extreme options, so comparing them is pointless. You can make your argument, but it's never going to be a choice that anyone is going to be in the position to make in the game, so it's moot. |
katana or broadsword scrapper, stalkers, or brute. Easily able to get 32.5% defense to melee or lethal.
/FF MM, same story as the /traps.
/Time users.
/invuln, willpower, Dark armor.. all of which /could/ go for the full 45% defense, but it may be cheaper to aim for 32.5%, and rely on the resistance as a fall back.
There are plenty of cases where you could easily build for 32.5% defense and have the resistance shield, or build for 45% defense, and not have the resistance shield.
Quote:
If you fight only non-Trial enemies that don't have tohit buffs or def debuffs, and don't target any holes in your defense, yeah. Adding in any (or all!) of those things will move the break-even point closer to the resist side. In actual play, I've found that softcapped def alone really doesn't compare too favorably to moderate def and moderate resist. Especially because a character with def in the 30s can use one small purple to softcap, but a softcapped character needs several oranges to get decent resists. A tray full of purples lasts 20 minutes if you only need to use one at a time, even if you don't get any insp drops at all.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
I don't know how that can possibly be in terms of the numbers. The difference in damage between 45 and 35 (just to keep the math easier) is 3X. You'd need 66% resist to equal that, and I doubt you get that cheaply.
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Quote:
I assumed he was talking about positional defense, which no epic shield provides. 32.5% Ranged defense is a lot cheaper and easier than 45% regardless of what epic you pick. If you go S/L defense then 32.5% plus a resist based epic shield is actually slightly harder to get than 45% with a defense shield, though the difference is only about one set bonus.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
But if he's doing an epic resist shield it's not going to be easy to get 32.5 in def without the epic def shield.
I mean, he said "the latter is cheaper and strains the build less", and if he got to 32.5 without an epic def shield (and is an AT that gets an epic shield), then it would be no more of a cost or strain to take the epic def shield instead and hit 45 than to take the tough and stay at 32.5. There is no way to reconcile your interpretation with his "cheaper and strains the build less" comment. |
As far as total mitigation goes, 32.5% defense lets you take about four times as much damage as 0% defense (you get hit 12.5% of the time instead of 50%) so with 50% resist that would be 8x normal mitigation. 45% defense is 10x normal mitigation, so under perfect conditions softcapping is better... however, in practice you're one unlucky roll away from a faceplant when pushing the softcapped defense to the edge while defense + resistance gives you a bit more reaction time to pop a green if things go bad. You can also boost 32.5% defense to the softcap with one Luck, and with the resistance you get 20x mitigation then... increasing softcapped defense to 20x mitigation requires quite a few oranges so decent defense + resistance is easier to boost to really high mitigation levels (through inspirations or buffs).
Overall I'd prefer 32.5% defense plus 50% resists on a character with mez protection. However, a mezzed squishy is often a dead squishy so with no mez protection I'd rather softcap and minimize my odds of being stunned (since many stuns have a S/L component). Sure you can use Break Frees, but it's a lot easier to avoid running out of them if you don't need one every fight (assuming you fight large groups of enemies with multiple stuns... if you cherry pick your foes to avoid mezzes then it's obviously a non-issue).
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And in none of them would the resist choice be "cheaper and strains the build less", as Talen Lee said.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
There are plenty of cases where you could easily build for 32.5% defense and have the resistance shield, or build for 45% defense, and not have the resistance shield.
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People keep arguing that def+resit is better sometimes. I'm not arguing against that. I don't really care. What I have a problem with is Talen Lee's post that doesn't actually match any AT/powerset combo in the game.
Quote:
Actually we can use a Blaster for this illustration. |
Originally Posted by rsclark
And in none of them would the resist choice be "cheaper and strains the build less", as Talen Lee said.
People keep arguing that def+resit is better sometimes. I'm not arguing against that. I don't really care. What I have a problem with is Talen Lee's post that doesn't actually match any AT/powerset combo in the game. |
1) In this first example the Blaster is softcapped to S/L.
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2) In this second example the same Blaster has at least 32% to Ranged DEF and a Resist Shield.
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Both blasters went redside but in the first example, the cost for the IOs (the Kinetic Combats in particular) was more than the second example (barring the thanksgiving sale). NOTE: Please excuse the unfinished build lol
@Deadboy
I prefer the mix of mitigation.
With 32.5% you can soft cap with a purple, and that is pretty darn effortless. It takes a LOT more oranges to build up resistance otherwise.
The resistance is far more reliable and not subject to the extreme DDR that Defence will suffer.
On teams that have buffs, you'll like soft cap anyway AND now have the additional benefit of the resistances.
A lot depends on the level of resists. An electric or dark armor character that manages to get to 32.5% M/R/A will probably have resists ranging from 40-60%ish, while a shield or willpower character may only get to 20-30% resists, which would be more than a squishy with an epic shield because it would be to more damage types.
My role of thumb:
If it has less than 40% resists, get to 45% defense.
If it has more than 40% to resists, aim for at least 32.5%.
Basically, anything averaging above 40% to "standard" damage types (no psy or toxic), is probably relying on resistance as its primary mitigation. Therefore, getting defense up to capable levels is secondary, because one level of mitigation already exists. A squishy will be relying on that defense as the first line of defense, however, and will probably want that line to be as solid as possible (especially as it also protects against mez).
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Quote:
Just counting defense/damage resistance and nothing else, 43% def is equivalent to around 32.5% def + 62.5% damage resistance. With 32.5% def, you're hit about 1 in 5.5 attacks from even level minions; with a 43% def, you're hit about 1 in 14.3 attacks.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
I can't really do math for beans but if I understand the mechanics correctly if you have 32.5% you will be roughly getting hit one in four times, if you have 50% resists to all damage types present in that attack you will only take have half of any damage that manages to get past that defense.. Does that mean its as effective as having 43% defense (where you would be hit only 1 in 8 times)? |
So this has been a question for me for some time but I have been trying to work out if one would get comparable mileage out of having moderate defense+resists in 50+% range as one would get if they were softcap'd to either S/L/E/N , Just Melee (or any one position) or even all positions.
I can't really do math for beans but if I understand the mechanics correctly if you have 32.5% you will be roughly getting hit one in four times, if you have 50% resists to all damage types present in that attack you will only take have half of any damage that manages to get past that defense.. Does that mean its as effective as having 43% defense (where you would be hit only 1 in 8 times)?
Sorry if this is abit of a confusing post. I have not made a build for a resist set in quite awhile and I am looking at either having S/L at softcap (with E/R being in the 30's) or having a very wide spread of defenses in the 30 range so I can tune more performance into my primary.
D: Toss me a hai @DarkNat My Fify glory: Renzer Dark/Dark Corr., Renzro Dark/Dark Def., Amartasu Dark/Dark Scrap.Less important ones: Fire/Fire Blaster,Ice/Ice Blaster,Ele/Ele Brute, Mind/Storm Troll,Fire/Kin Corr.,Bots/FF MM., DB/Regen Scrap.