Buff Trick Arrows 2.0! Now with more begging!

And here we are again, probably 2 years since my last attempt to get some kind of discussion going about getting a few buffs for my favorite set.

It's been over 6 years since the Trick Arrows set was released, and it hasn't received a buff that wasn't a bug fix or an animation time reduction since Issue 7... 5 1/2 years ago. And yet if you polled Defenders on which was the wimpiest Primary available to them, Trick Arrows would win, by a wide margin. Of course, one of them would always have to be "the worst," and maybe Trick Arrows is destined to always be that set, but I think there's plenty that can be done to shrink the margin between Trick Arrows and the other sets.

But first, where did it all go wrong? Heavy-handed 'nerfing' during beta with the addendum that it was easier to measure Trick Arrows performance and buff it back up if necessary now, rather than rein it in later, followed by not a single change to the set for the rest of the beta period. I believe after this point, we were told no more changes could be made for awhile (any more work on Issue 5 had been 'locked'), but that the performance of the set would be monitored closely. But minus a handful of buffs (to anything other than debuff values), bug fixes and animation time changes, it's been more or less the same ever since.

Well, given the latest round of review on other sets, I think maybe it's time to change that! I mean... please?

Note: Most of these will be unchanged from my last thread, as my suggestions for those powers hasn't changed.



1) Drop the Endurance Cost and Accuracy bonuses on this power
2) Increase the debuff values

My suggestion for this power remains the same as it's always been.

During beta of Issue 5, it was decided that Trick Arrows put out "too much -Recharge." Well, since then it seems that every other buff/debuff set that's been added can put out more -Recharge with one or two powers than Trick Arrows can with three (and that's on top of the fact that all other sets feature buffs).

So maybe it's time rethink how much is "too much" and give Trick Arrows back some of it's debuffing power by putting Entangling Arrow back at the same level as Web Grenade.

Since the increased Accuracy and Endurance Cost discount were given when this power's debuff was originally removed (and then later readded, at a much smaller value), I feel it's warranted that they be restored to their normal values if the debuffs are increased.

Decrease AccMod to 1.0
Increase EndCost to 7.8
Increase SpeedDebuff to -62.5% (-50% for Corr/MM)
Increase RechDebuff to -62.5% (-50% for Corr/MM)




I have no changes. I'm not saying Flash Arrow is great; it's not. But it functions just as well as any other -Perception power in the game. Better, in fact. I originally suggested it be swapped with Glue Arrow, but I have some suggested changes to Glue Arrow that would probably be too good for a tier 2 power.




1) Lower the Speed debuff
2) Increase the Recharge debuff
3) Add small chance to Hold

Trick Arrows currently has two powers that put enemies at the -RunSpeed cap: Glue Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow. But slowing down enemy movement isn't an effective debuff, besides making it easier to stay at range. So I suggest lowering the amount it can slow enemies movement, while increasing it's ability to slow enemies actions. Afterall, if it's really slowing down their ability to move their feet that much, why aren't their arms being slowed down as much?

Increasing the recharge debuff makes Glue Arrow, a staple power of the set, a much more effective debuff.

Also, taking precedence from powers in newer sets, I think Glue Arrow could use a new mechanic to make it more useful and attractive to players: Add chance to Hold! This would obviously be a small chance on a short duration Hold, but it would still be useful and appropriate for a power that's supposed to be putting down a strong adhesive (I'd like to see it use the 'struggling' animation from Frozen Aura, minus the ice).

Decrease SpeedDebuff to -60%
Increase RechDebuff to -30% to -40%
Add 2% chance for a 4s Mag3 Hold




1) Increase the debuff values

This is the third worst Hold in the game, only above Poison and Dark's debuff-less Holds, both of which are in sets already seen as better than Trick Arrows. Also, sticking to the Ice theme, this power's debuffs should at least be comparable to debuffs in similar Ice Blast and Ice Control Holds.

Increase SpeedDebuff to -25% (-20% for Corr/MM)
Increase RechDebuff to -25% (-20% for Corr/MM)




With the recent change to make this power a pulsing Sleep and -Damage effect, I think it's actually pretty decent now. It might require an Accuracy enhancement now, but it can potentially remove Minions from the fight for awhile and it has a pretty powerful -Damage debuff for enemies not put to Sleep.

If I had to think of something to change, I would add some other kind of effect to the gas. -HP, -Special, or -Regen, maybe. Something else that represents the effect of a poison.




1) Increase the resistance debuff value
2) Increase the radius of the AoE
3) Increase recharge timer

Not too long ago, I would have considered this power working just fine. Then came the Defender version of Acid Mortar, which is vastly superior in many, many ways. It debuffs defense more, it debuffs resistance more, it has longer range, it fires faster than Acid Arrow recharges, it can stack, and it can keep aggro off the caster. It even does more damage! Acid Arrow, once a unique power in the Trick Arrows set, is now overshadowed by a similar power, as most of Trick Arrows is.

Increasing the resistance debuff value would not only improve Acid Arrow compared to Acid Mortar, but it also improves the whole set for Controllers, Corruptors and Masterminds.

One of the benefits to choosing Trick Arrows as a Defender, is that you get Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow; two sources of Resistance debuff that allow the Trick Arrows Defender to cause a higher value of -Resistance than other sets for more of the time (-40%).

But this doesn't really translate over to the other ATs' versions. They sit at the values they should, but because of issues with "psuedopets" in other sets, Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow tend to be at equal or lower values by comparison with no compensation for the loss of something that is intended to be a reason for choosing Trick Arrows over the other sets, i.e. greater offense through more Resistance debuff.

Increasing the debuff of these powers restores that benefit to playing Trick Arrows on all ATs.

Increasing the radius of the AoE, well... 8 feet as a debuff radius is incredibly small. It's almost funny that the power has a 16 foe target max, because well... is it even possible to fit 16 enemies in to an 8 foot radius?

What good does having two Resistance debuffs do Trick Arrows if one has a small radius and the other can only affect 10 enemies at once? At best, Trick Arrows can debuff resistance by 40%, but only to 10 enemies, while other sets can get close (30%-35%) with a single power that can hit 16 enemies, and that can typically stack with itself (Tar Patch, Freezing Rain, Sleet).

If increasing the radius a bit means the recharge has to be increased as well, then so be it.

Increase Radius to 10ft to 15 ft
Increase Rech to 30s
Increase ResDebuff to -25%(-18.75% for Con/Corr/MM)




1) Decrease the endurance cost
2) Increase MaxTargets limit
3) Increase resistance debuff
4) Add -ToHit effect

This power has always been one of the most frustrating for me because of how poor it is compared to any other similar power, but how necessary it is for Trick Arrows to feel effective, especially while teaming.

Like Acid Arrow, increasing it's -Resistance debuff improves the set's effectiveness, while also restoring a benefit to the set that's been missing from the other ATs' versions.

The endurance cost has long been out of whack with it's effects: it's twice the cost of Tar Patch, which has a higher Resistance debuff, as well as a Speed debuff, and it's just short of the cost of Freezing Rain, which also has a higher Resistance debuff, as well as a Speed debuff, Recharge debuff, Defense debuff, and damage. Disruption Arrow does nothing that warrants a 14.56 endurance cost.

It's also limited to hitting only 10 enemies. The only other buff/debuff AoE powers that are limited to 10 targets are Fulcrum Shift and Heat Loss (both for obvious reasons), neither of which Disruption Arrow is even remotely comparable to.

In addition to fixing those inconsistencies, I also feel this power is a good place to add a small -ToHit effect to. Trick Arrows as a set needs more defensive debuffs, namely -ToHit, and Flash Arrow's debuff alone can't cut it. Adding -ToHit to Disruption Arrow not only fills that hole in a bit, it also:

A) Gives incentive to take Flash Arrow in order to stack both effects

B) Fits thematically with the Trick Arrows set, which works best when multiple arrows are used at once

C) Fits along the lines of Liquefy and Earthquake, which also reduce ToHit

D) Offers invention set options to a power which currently can't really be slotted for much

Decrease EndCost to 10.4
Increase MaxTargets to 16
Increase ResDebuff to -25% (-18.75% for Con/Corr/MM)
Add ToHitDebuff -6.25% (-5% for Con/Corr, -3.75% for MM)




No changes now that it correctly lights every time!




Also no changes. EMP Arrow has always been practically perfect in every way.

Also, I promised more begging, so... Can we get TA buffs, please? Can we get TA buffs, please? Can we get TA buffs, please? Can we have a pool, dad? Can we get TA buffs, please?

Trickshooter's Characters | @Trickshooter @Brightside

Sorry but none of that changes what the real issue is with the set. Little to no damage mitigation. Currently its the only powerset that can not keep a full team alive single handedly where as all the defender sets can. The other issue is too may arrows need to be fired to get the full benefit of the debuffs. Changing slow debuffs isnt going to matter when the mobs will just range you to death.

Didja stop reading halfway through Glue Arrow? Cause I'm pretty sure I suggested a tic'ing Hold in Glue Arrow, an increase in the mag of Poison Gas Arrow, and a ToHit debuff in Disruption Arrow that, combined with Flash Arrow, could get nearly -20% ToHit on enemies when slotted.

Trickshooter's Characters | @Trickshooter @Brightside

I always thought Traps were the worst defender set even though it is great on other ATs.

That said, I agree with your Poison Gas and Acid Arrow changes. I can see the end cost issue being fixed on Disruption but not the increase to the debuff simply due to the changes to Acid Arrow. That's 40% -res, which is higher than any other defender primary, if I recall.

I've played TA for about four years. My TA/Arch is my favourite incarnate at the moment and the only Defender I've ever been able to play to 50. My thoughts:

- Remove the chance of sleep from Poison Gas altogether. As you pointed it, it's useless. Give it a chance of hold like Traps>Poison Trap. This will make the set more desirable and iconic at low levels. That barf-hold animation is "a gas."

- Acid Arrow and Acid Mortar should have comparable values. Give Acid a moderate toxic DoT. I actually don't care if it's auto-hit or not: I've always thought it a bit odd that it was.

- I love that Disruption Arrow can be targeted in the air. Don't change this!

- EMP Arrow could use a slightly shorter recharge.

And the 500-Pound Gorilla...

FOR THE LOVE OF CTHULHU LET US TINT TRICK ARROW.

Seriously - why is this set not tintable in any way? The ice hold is not only meh as a power, it's stuck as the same kludgy, opaque legacy ice colour that everyone who can, changes. Granted, TA does not lend itself to tinting as well as other sets, but neither does Traps, and it's fully tintable. This alone would boost the desirability to players without changing anything else.

I'm not looking at Mids right now, but I know those numbers are a little off. For Defenders, Acid Arrow is -20% Resist, -25% Defense, Acid Mortar is -26.6% Resist and -26.6% Defense.

The reason is because they took the Corruptor Acid Mortar values (-20% for both) as the base, and divided them by 0.75 (because Corruptor buff/debuff mods are usually, but not always, 0.075 compared to Defenders' 0.1), and got -26.6% (There's actually a small bug with that, because for -Defense, Corruptors mod is -0.1, while Defenders is -0.125, so the Defender version should actually only be -25% Defense).

Trickshooter's Characters | @Trickshooter @Brightside

Scarily, I agree with EvilRyu. There is too little *mitigation* in the set, especially given how many arrows you have to shoot off to get what little there is. There certainly are some other weirdnesses that ought to be corrected, but adding some real mitigation to the set ought to be the first priority, in my opinion.

Poison gas arrow is still a sleep, and every other incarnation of 'poison gas' in the game is a hold. This should be as well. I'd change the sleep to a (mag 3) hold and fiddle with magnitude, proc chance, and duration. Something like a 33% chance for mag 3/2.5s duration, so at any given time you get a third of the minions/LTs held, and then once you slot for hold you bump that to roughly 45% (vs even levels).

It wouldn't be as good of a chance to mez, at least against minions (rolling every 2.5s with a 66% chance/9s duration sleep has a *very* good chance to put basically all the minions to sleep after a few pulses), but it'd be a lot more useful for mitigation (IMO) because of being a *harder* mez as well as affecting LTs. It might be nice to give it an initial guaranteed longer-duration pulse of sleep as well, both to satisfy the cottage rule and preserve the use for people who want to use it to keep stuff slept while they layer other debuffs.

The other place to add more mitigation is flash arrow. Currently, it does indeed work just as well as any other perception power, but that's honestly not saying much. Perception debuffs are, frankly, of highly limited use. The set needs some more direct mitigation, such as tohit debuff, and it ought to go *here* rather than in disruption arrow because the mania the designers had towards forcing you to layer a billion arrows to get your debuffs is a *bad* thing, not a good one. Also, the only other set which opens with two powers which are so (IMO) unimpressive is storm (which is a much better set in all sorts of other ways), so this would give TA users the chance to actually take something slightly exciting with their mandatory level 1 pick.

Leave flash arrow's current -6.25% unresistable 30 second tohit debuff alone. Add in a 12.5% *resistable* 30s duration tohit debuff on top of that, and double the power's recharge to 30s. The total of 18.75% tohit debuff is still only half that of a set like dark (equal to darkest night), but it'd still be useful in a way which a straight perception debuff *isn't*.

I don't really disagree with your other changes, but I just don't think they help the set where it actually needs it. Small chance for a short duration hold in glue arrow isn't going to do much, honestly. More -recharge is nice, but does nothing for alpha strikes (especially solo, and especially the ST parts). Give the set some *real* mitigation.

TA needs buffs and serious developer attention. Poison needs buffs and serious developer attention. Gravity needs buffs and serious developer attention. These three sets are vastly under-performing compared to their peers.

I guarantee that melee ATs will receive that attention instead. Because, you know, Energy Aura was clearly worse off relative to other armor sets than TA is compared to something like Time, Radiation, Dark Miasma, Kinetics, Cold, Traps, etc. I am beyond frustrated with the melee slant in this game-- and I love my melee characters but the bias has gotten RIDICULOUS!!

I would think we would want to increase the length of the -Regen in EMP Arrow, since the -regen only lasts 15 seconds :/ Not a whole lot can be done with that, imo.

Get rid of weapon redraw and I'll play the set. Biggest buff ever!

In all seriousness, I've never liked Poison Gas Arrow. I never thought that "Poison" is equal to "Sleep" effect. My only experience of TA is on a Mastermind and the debuff values are so low. The 15% damage debuff is almost non-existent after you factor in level differences.

My ideal Trick Arrow is actually a more "damaging" secondary. Afterall, you are using arrows to attack.

This is not going to happen but I would:

Get rid of Sleep in Poison Gas Arrow. Add tier 1 Toxic damage and debuffs damage.

Then for Acid Arrow, I will add 40% resistance debuff on Toxic just like Venom Grenade. This means you can debuff with Acid Arrow first and then get a better damage Poison Gas.

Disruption Arrow will have a chance to "stun" or "hold" just like the Sonic grenades from Longbow. The chance can be small but Trick Arrow needs more "hard" controls.

I may reduce Oil Slick recharge down to 150s.

Basically, the gist is that Trick Arrow will never be a "safe" set. It's not going to provide healing because if I want healing and more defensive set, I won't even pick Trick Arrow. The problem I have with Trick Arrow is that the debuffs take time to stack and some of the Arrows should do more damage. Instead of making Trick Arrow more closer to Dark Miasma, I want my Arrows (Acid and Poison Arrow or even Ice Arrow) to deal more damage because this way I can debuff while doing decent damage. That will be Trick Arrow's strength. And for a Archery/TA user, you'll have more ways to deal mobs that have heavy lethal resistant. You can slot Acid/Poison/Ice for +damage too.

Some numbers I would suggestion for Corruptor's versoin at lvl 50:

Poison Gas Arrow does 41.7 Toxic DoT Damage in 4s.
Acid Arrow does 35.03 Toxic DoT Damage in 4s.
Ice Arrow does 35.03 Ice DoT damage in 4s.

Get rid of redraw so half of the weapon combos aren't completely terrible

I find myself not even noticing the sleep in PGA, tbh. I use it mainly for the damage debuff.

How bout making Entangling Arrow an AOE immob and increasing the relevant values accordingy? I agree that TA has just about the worst set of opeing powers of any buff/debuff set.