And Energy Melee departs the penalty box...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-12-02 24:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Do you have the thread/post in question saved? If not, then you're going by memory just like I am, and it sounds more like this is your interpretation of what he meant, just as my post is my interpretation of what he meant.|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
I can't really weigh in on the issue with EM because I only play it on a Stalker (which are generally low on AoEs anyway) and I didn't have anything with EM before the change to ET, buuut...
This isn't actually what Castle said. Castle said that the posts where players were mocking anyone that didn't choose EM should have been "evidence enough" that change needed to happen. Basically, he was saying that even if you didn't have the dev damage formulas and datamining tools, the necessity for ET's change was self-evident. I'm not saying I agree with that statement or the changes made (these days, EM is clearly one of the lowest melee performers), but I want to make sure people have the correct information before they try to use it as a way to get some attention to this set. |
Regardless, even assuming your interpretation is correct, the fact he pointed at posts that were clearly about em's superiority in PVP, and assumed it was evidence that the set deserved a nerf, shows how clueless he was about the set, and why players were taking it in such large numbers and mocking those that didn't. It wasn't because the set was a dominant pve set, it was because it was the only melee set that was worth a damn in pvp.
Of course, then the same guy went and 'fixed' pvp, so at least he was consistent...
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
For those who miss good old ET http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79ngQ_6HB1o
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Wow where did you find that? |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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Well, I tried to find the thread, but it looks like it's been purged. The patch that changed ET's animation time went live July 9, 2008, and Castle's account had no posts about it around that timeframe.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Do you have the thread/post in question saved? If not, then you're going by memory just like I am, and it sounds more like this is your interpretation of what he meant, just as my post is my interpretation of what he meant.
Regardless, even assuming your interpretation is correct, the fact he pointed at posts that were clearly about em's superiority in PVP, and assumed it was evidence that the set deserved a nerf, shows how clueless he was about the set, and why players were taking it in such large numbers and mocking those that didn't. It wasn't because the set was a dominant pve set, it was because it was the only melee set that was worth a damn in pvp. Of course, then the same guy went and 'fixed' pvp, so at least he was consistent... |
Anyway, you're right that I could be misinterpreting what he said, BUT the reason I remember him saying something closer to "those posts should be evidence enough" and not "those posts are a big reason" is because I also remember him having to post several times to correct people that claimed he said the latter.
But it doesn't really matter, as Castle has left the position and the current team is a little more flexible when it comes to designing/altering powersets. Hasn't Arbiter Hawk already said they're in the early stages of tweaking Energy Melee?
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Yes, and Synapse also said that is one set he would like to overhaul if it didn't require a ton of work.|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
Hasn't Arbiter Hawk already said they're in the early stages of tweaking Energy Melee?
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Both of them made these comments via coffee talks.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Good news! Your assumption is completely incorrect, therefore, you don't need to worry about the rest of your point! I just saved you a bunch of time fretting about something that isn't a problem! Maybe now you can stop being unhappy about a three year old change!
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Maybe you should change your name to P.O.W.O.P for Pissing on the Wheels of Progress. or maybe I am just misunderstanding you.
Energy Melee is far from ok. In my opinion it can use more AOE or ET should be changed back. The set currently has no reason to exist except concept since there are better options. Buff Whilring hands to be like Foot Stoop with a high chance to stun and a large radius or make TF or ET an AOE or just change ET back. Either change would make the set more viable.
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Well, to quote Castle on July 9, 2008|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
Well, I tried to find the thread, but it looks like it's been purged. The patch that changed ET's animation time went live July 9, 2008, and Castle's account had no posts about it around that timeframe.
Anyway, you're right that I could be misinterpreting what he said, BUT the reason I remember him saying something closer to "those posts should be evidence enough" and not "those posts are a big reason" is because I also remember him having to post several times to correct people that claimed he said the latter. But it doesn't really matter, as Castle has left the position and the current team is a little more flexible when it comes to designing/altering powersets. Hasn't Arbiter Hawk already said they're in the early stages of tweaking Energy Melee? |
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There are a lot of reasons. Do a search the Blaster, Brute, Stalker, and Tanker forums. If you find less than 1,000 instances of someone laughing at someone else because they took a powerset other than Energy Melee/Assault/Manipulation, I would be extremely surprised. Datamining shows a significant skewing of the populace using these powersets, leading us to ask why? The answer is the same reason the posters were laughing at other sets: it's too good. As for why now, instead of two years ago or two years from now...why not? We can't do everything we want immediately. Sometimes, things have to wait their turn. |
Digest posts starting around July 2008 for Castle
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Energy Transfer had about twice the DPA of Seismic Smash. That means that it was nearly twice as powerful as the second best single target attack in the game at the time, which was already markedly superior to any other such attack. It was broken beyond belief.
What should have happened was the creation of a new animation that didn't backload the damage in the manner it did. The damage should have come at the same time as the previous animation-- after about 1 second-- but should have then had a 1.5 second wind down. This would have allowed players to strike as quickly as before, but would have neutered the broken DPA.
I would still like to see the rest of Energy Melee fixed a bit-- particularly it's AoE damage.
I may be remembering this wrong, but didn't I hear a dev once say that Kinetic Melee came from an attempt to revamp to revamp Energy Melee? They had all these ideas for new animations and a new mechanic (Power Siphon I assume) and decided to make a new set out of those ideas instead.
All this talk of added AoEs and MOAR STUNZ bewilders me. EM was the go-to for single target control/damage, and what, ninety percent of player suggestions is to turn it into just another hybrid set with a mix of AoE/Mez/ST/KitchenSink?
How about more like drop the animation times on TF and ET to two seconds each and leave everything else be...
Sheesh.
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And yet the proposed i22 Stalker changes gives each and every Stalker primary a power that can exceed the DPA of the old Energy Transfer with as few as two stacks of Assassin's Focus (meaning two powers hit in between uses... or essentially each and every attack chain in existence).|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Energy Transfer had about twice the DPA of Seismic Smash. That means that it was nearly twice as powerful as the second best single target attack in the game at the time, which was already markedly superior to any other such attack. It was broken beyond belief.
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As for the pic I posted earlier? I screen-capped it. That's my EM/ElA Brute in one of her old costumes. The subtitle works really well given where that arm punches out to.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Oh, awesome! This is one of the posts that followed that I had kind of remembered:|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
Well, to quote Castle on July 9, 2008
For a full set of posts from Castle, check out his digest here Digest posts starting around July 2008 for Castle |
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Right now ET has a DPA of ~1.7. If I put the animation back to 1 second, the damage scale would be dropped to 1.7 to maintain that DPA. That means an unslotted Tanker attack would do 75.6 damage, as opposed to the 202.9 damage they currently do. Alternatively, I could manipulate the self damage portion. Instead of doing damage, I could instead set health to 15% of it's current value. This would leave the incredibly over-the top damage, while truly making the power dangerous to the user. I don't really consider either of those to be reasonable alternatives. |
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I would love it if ET did it's damage as quickly after activation as it used to, or even just slightly longer. I would also be fine with a longer down-time after activation and even a longer recharge if that was considered needed for balance. |
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Energy Transfer had about twice the DPA of Seismic Smash. That means that it was nearly twice as powerful as the second best single target attack in the game at the time, which was already markedly superior to any other such attack. It was broken beyond belief.
What should have happened was the creation of a new animation that didn't backload the damage in the manner it did. The damage should have come at the same time as the previous animation-- after about 1 second-- but should have then had a 1.5 second wind down. This would have allowed players to strike as quickly as before, but would have neutered the broken DPA. I would still like to see the rest of Energy Melee fixed a bit-- particularly it's AoE damage. |
I like the ability to hit quickly with ET, and I got used to being able to do so. Also, I do not PvP at all, so I know that my perspective on that part of the game is useless to balancing the power.
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Stalkers pay a dear price indeed for their single target prowess even with the pending improvements. I'm going to be making a stalker in issue 22 having last done so in issue 6, mind, but I'm not going to be using any of the crap legacy sets that were constructed before stalkers had any sort of identity beyond, "Let's make sure they're not as good as any other AT." Energy transfer is available to real ATs that get loads of aoe. I hope you can see the distinction.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
And yet the proposed i22 Stalker changes gives each and every Stalker primary a power that can exceed the DPA of the old Energy Transfer with as few as two stacks of Assassin's Focus (meaning two powers hit in between uses... or essentially each and every attack chain in existence).
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And you point is? Exactly how much less survivable is a Stalker than a Brute, and how much AoE does the average Stalker set sacrifice, and what exactly is the role of the Stalker? |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
And yet the proposed i22 Stalker changes gives each and every Stalker primary a power that can exceed the DPA of the old Energy Transfer with as few as two stacks of Assassin's Focus (meaning two powers hit in between uses... or essentially each and every attack chain in existence).
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I see no problem with that. The Stalker class will finally have DPS commensurate with the sacrifices already baked into the AT design. It's bout time.
**On a side note the readjustment was as much about insta-kill in PvP as it was about PvE imbalances. Build Up->Assassin Strike->ET was death in less than 2 seconds if you couldn't see the Stalker. Not only has PvP changed since then, but it is impossible to Assassin Strike->Assassin Strike, so the insane DPA it MIGHT have outside of hide does not produce broken levels of burst damage in PvP.
Using Wikipedia I checked the timelines here and it seems Castle was in the process of revamping Energy melee around the same time COH was revamping the mission difficulty. It's not the greatest investigative piece I've done but..
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then you see a game update take place...|
Well, to quote Castle on July 9, 2008 Quote: There are a lot of reasons. Do a search the Blaster, Brute, Stalker, and Tanker forums. If you find less than 1,000 instances of someone laughing at someone else because they took a powerset other than Energy Melee/Assault/Manipulation, I would be extremely surprised. Datamining shows a significant skewing of the populace using these powersets, leading us to ask why? The answer is the same reason the posters were laughing at other sets: it's too good. As for why now, instead of two years ago or two years from now...why not? We can't do everything we want immediately. Sometimes, things have to wait their turn. |
September 15, 2009
Allowed players to choose the color/styles/animation paths for character power sets. This update also included more power set proliferation, added epic power pool choices, a new Sidekicking system, Level 5-24 altered to increase XP/influence rewards by 20%, minor changes to the Mission Architect, and a replacement of the difficulty adjustment system.
What's my point? Well Energy melee was strong back in the day when you solo'd missions at +3/x1. Back in those days, that was the criteria used to determine a strong set. But then everything changed only a few weeks later with the addition of the new difficulty system!
If they just left the power alone for a couple more weeks they would've seen a huge reduction in people flocking to the Energy melee, because people started looking for AOE damage (Energy's weak point).
You don't hear people beating their chest these days cuz they can solo at +3/x1...
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That's what I've been saying There were threads titled 'OMG I got ET it's so good' (I made one when I got it on my Stalker, people on the Brute forums made these too). It felt very effective even on a team or SF (since it was restricted to villains).|
Originally Posted by Celestial Might
What's my point? Well Energy melee was strong back in the day when you solo'd missions at +3/x1. Back in those days, that was the criteria used to determine a strong set. But then everything changed only a few weeks later with the addition of the new difficulty system!
If they just left the power alone for a couple more weeks they would've seen a huge reduction in people flocking to the Energy melee, because people started looking for AOE damage (Energy's weak point). You don't hear people beating their chest these days cuz they can solo at +3/x1... |
Then.. the ITF was released, that was still with old ET (ET was changed about 2 months later after the ITF was released).
I use ITF as a reference because that's the first TF I felt I was not being very effective by being ST-focused, and everything that they added later favoured AoE.
So even with old EM and way before the new difficulty settings I was starting to feel they were going for AoE-centric content in the game. Not a problem but as you said, it would've dropped from FoTM fast, and imo even if the new difficulty settings weren't introduced because on teams AoE started to prevail more and more.
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When they made ET change, there wasn't that many focuses on AoE damage. I mean ITF probably just came out and there was no game setting that allows you to increase mob size. Energy Melee was very popular for soloing and pvping.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
And yet the proposed i22 Stalker changes gives each and every Stalker primary a power that can exceed the DPA of the old Energy Transfer with as few as two stacks of Assassin's Focus (meaning two powers hit in between uses... or essentially each and every attack chain in existence).
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This game is changing. It has way more emphasis on Larger Team Size. Larger Team size comes with larger spawns. Stalker's old tactic of BU + AS on SINGLE TARGET becomes highly ineffective. They've also introduced more and more "auto damage" which un-hidden Stalker (TNP for example).
I don't think it's a shame to bring back the old ET. They can re-vamp EM again but I think Stalker will definitely get a good use of good ST attack. You are not a good assassin if your bread-n-butter attack is interruptable, taking 3s or longer and doing less damage.
Energy Melee is the only Stalker primary I have not tried. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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EM was popular on everything, just like DM was a great set on any AT for the boss killing role. Even on 8-people teams.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
When they made ET change, there wasn't that many focuses on AoE damage. I mean ITF probably just came out and there was no game setting that allows you to increase mob size. Energy Melee was very popular for soloing and pvping.
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But it wasn't until the ITF that the 'crapton of mobs' made the game more and more AoE focused. Not that it's a bad thing, just that... They could've left EM alone, they changed it 2 months after the ITF and all the content later was AoE focused. Even the lowbie praetoria missions are way harder for me to solo (due to end issues and number of mobs) at say, x2 or x3 compared to blue or redside mishes.
Why don't we go ahead and stop the "aoe began with issue 12" train in its tracks? I seem to recall that it was issue zero where ar/dev blasters were wiping out colossal swaths of Dark Astoria with impunity. Seems to me it was issue one that allowed fire tankers to herd entire maps and then wipe them out in less than thirty seconds. By the time CoV came out, the bulldozing potential of corruptors and brutes had already been thoroughly explored in the beta. The prevailing wisdom in CoH has never been that single target was all that mattered. EM was simply so far beyond reason that it was worth it anyway.
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Two VERY different things.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Why don't we go ahead and stop the "aoe began with issue 12" train in its tracks? I seem to recall that it was issue zero where ar/dev blasters were wiping out colossal swaths of Dark Astoria with impunity. Seems to me it was issue one that allowed fire tankers to herd entire maps and then wipe them out in less than thirty seconds. By the time CoV came out, the bulldozing potential of corruptors and brutes had already been thoroughly explored in the beta. The prevailing wisdom in CoH has never been that single target was all that mattered. EM was simply so far beyond reason that it was worth it anyway.
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You're talking about toons that can wipe tons of mobs, well those always existed. But doing both things you described was not the usual regular gameplay (missions, teams, tfs).
Because at the same time my EM and DM toons felt more effective before the newish AoE content, if I wanted to do things like you mentioned I wouldn't be stupid and try it on an EM toon - I'd change to my fire/kin (since I started playing when they were the farmers). AoE monsters always existed, that's not the point at all.
In today's game unnerfed EM just like before would do fine since its closes competitor KM has plenty of other tools like ranged attack, AoEs, mitigations, and EM could be the ST specialist (Which DM kinda is now with the Siphon Life buff - but EM could be less DPS-y and more bursty version of DM, which would be equally good in team play).
I've never really studied Energy Melee but I was looking through all the details.
The power Stun sticks out like an Eye-Sore. It has 20s long recharge and with 1.8s long casting time. Comparing to the old Cobra, it is still worse because Cobra has 1.67s animation.
Energy Melee already has so many stuns. Who really needs Stun? That's one power that seems to be out of place.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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The new Cobra has the same end cost as Stun, recharges in half the time, still has the 1.67 cast time and does a lot of damage while stun does little. Both have the same 11.92s Stunned (mag 3) but Cobra has a 75% chance and Stun is 100%.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I've never really studied Energy Melee but I was looking through all the details.
The power Stun sticks out like an Eye-Sore. It has 20s long recharge and with 1.8s long casting time. Comparing to the old Cobra, it is still worse because Cobra has 1.67s animation. Energy Melee already has so many stuns. Who really needs Stun? That's one power that seems to be out of place. |
One disadvantage of EM to DM btw is that you have to take a bit of care with EM, both not to corpse blast or die mid animation. DM users already complain about Shadow Maul which is the only slow attack in DM but it's a cone with ST recharge/end/damage.
ET would benefit from a 75% stun chance instead of 50% because it was very good when you could stun a boss with TF, making the set so good for hard targets, now you need two attacks to have a chance to stun a boss (because who has room to pick Stun anyway?). Sometimes I miss TF's mag 4 stun more than old ET.
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My point was that old ET couldn't be "broken beyond belief" because of its DPA if every Stalker is getting something that can perform better, without the chance of killing yourself while using it. In other words, I'm saying that EM didn't really warrant a nerf given that it's in the same boat that all of the Stalker primaries are in - how much AoE does it sacrifice to get single target? Plus, get this, it sacrifices health, too!|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
And you point is?
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
When they made ET change, there wasn't that many focuses on AoE damage. I mean ITF probably just came out and there was no game setting that allows you to increase mob size. Energy Melee was very popular for soloing and pvping.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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At least that way the timing of your attack chain is still intact but you're not 'one-shotting' your enemies (which I'm guessing was the complaint?)
God it's like they changed something (reduced damage), didn't check to see it's effect on the set and then changed another thing (slowed ET animation), once again didn't check ....then changed one MORE thing (reduced TF) and walked away from it.
EM was never a borderline set, but it was FoTM on Brutes and Stalkers (and PvP Tankers) because at the time the content wasn't so focused on AoE as everything they added after (aside from the ITF, ST toons did quite well) and you couldn't solo/duo at x4, x8, etc. So it was a good set to play on harder difficulties which didn't add more mobs at the time. ET still has crazy damage and reduced end cost (since you 'pay' health to use it).
The TF mag nerf I never understood... It doesn't crit for extra 100% damage on Stalkers (unlike all the other ST attacks except special cases like Concentrated Strike and ET), it takes forever to animate and well, Stone Melee which has AoE mitigation in Fault and an AoE which is as damaging as whirling hands but has footstomp's radius get to keep their 1.5 sec cast time mag 4 hold in seismic smash. Stunning bosses was a very useful tactic for my stalker on teams (such as holding them in half the time with my SM Brute).