Research for a New Idea

Okay. So if any of you have read Ashlocke's thread you may have read through some of his propositions about the Kheldian AT, and it's issues.

After this i began working my creative gears and I've come up with a decent idea to really flush out the Kheldian AT, its backstory, and also it's overall playability. Before refining this idea I need some research in the form of your feedback; I'd rather give out an idea that considers all of you Kheldian lovers rather than starting a troll-fest.

If you're willing to help out, I'll need you to answer a few questions. Try to keep your answers short, maybe list based. I've heard alot about them, so saying something like "No toggle suppression" or "long animation times" speaks for itself. Please try not to compare 'Bringers and 'Shades either.

Thanks for the Help! -Bionut

1. Human, Bi, or Tri-form? Why?
2. What is "wrong" with Peacebringers?
3. What's wrong with Warshades?
4. What's wrong with the respective human forms?
5. How do they, if at all, compare to VEATs

1. I've played both and gone Tri-Form in each case, but found that as I levelled I spent more and more time just in human form.

2, 3. The main thing wrong with both types is the lack of fluid shapechanging. The animations to change are needlessly long, meaning you often respond too late.

"Theres a bunch of enemies grouped together! NOVA!"
Grrrnnnn! Shiiiift...
"Nuts! Theyve moved!"

This, plus the way your shields and damage aura and so on detoggle, means a shift back to human takes even longer.

I found that levelling, the forms got left behind. Desgining the class from scratch, I'd have additional powers that could be unlocked by the forms as you level up rather than getting everything at levels 6 and 20. At level 6, Nova is matchless in terms of firepower, by the 40s it's distinctly average.
Peacebringer's new Light Form will make this even worse I imagine, in that it very much obsoletes Dwarf Form.

4. The human forms work pretty well as is I find.

5. VEATS are much easier to play. Toggle on buffs and armour and go in guns blazing. They're a straightforwards reqwarding play experience of being stacking mini-tankmages.
Kheldians have the potential to be exciting and very unique, but are let down by the animation times of the shapechanging.

The realistic changes I'd suggest at this point:

1) Shorten the animation times for shifting
2) Allow toggles to keep running in forms (costing no end and having no effect, but still on)
3) Allow the forms to tie to different costume slots as an alternate animation of some other option. Let us design our own brick and artillery forms.

Thank you guys so much for all of the feedback! I appreciate it SO much. Everything you input here is inching me along to a more refined vision of what Kheldians could be and I'm being sure that i don't leave any rock unturned. In another day, or few I'll post my refined idea so u guys can help me out with it.

1. My Warshade is currently 'specced for Biform-Dwarf. I didn't like how squishy Nova form was, and I didn't like switching from one to the other only to die when my res dropped when I left Dwarf.

2. I have not played PBs as much, so I cannot give accurate perspective.

3. Aside from animation times, I cannot think of much wrong with Shades. My own damage is a little lackluster at level 34, but that is likely slotting and power use than the actual AT.

4. Nothing wrong with the human forms that I can see. In response to the KB issue that has been brought up, I do not see that as an issue. Midnight Flux has updated their Controlling Knockback guide, which I have read both versions of. KB getting out of hand is up to the player to reign back in.

5. As they are both EATs, the Kheldians and Soldiers of Arachnos compare quite closely. A good comparison that I have seen is that SoAs make their team better, and Khelds are made better because of their teams. As has bee mentioned earlier, SoAs give their team definite, hard numbers, while Khelds help out their teams by being awesome, and by using skills. It's similar to the difference between a Tank and a meatshield. VEATs, if played improperly, are similar to meatshields, while Khelds are simply a hindrance.

Hope this helps.
Echo

Good idea, Bionut911. Everyone leaves their feedback without counter-post bickering. I'll just talk about peacebringers, though. Plenty of people here more qualified to speak of "redeemed" Nictus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bionut911 Human, Bi, or Tri-form? Why?

01-05 - Human form only
06-19 - Nova form only, using (unslotted) Human-form's Nemesis staff to deal with Voids and Quantums
20-38 - Dwarf/Nova Biform, Dwarf solo, either Dwarf or Nova on teams
39-50 - Dual build, keeping the Dwarf/Nova Biform for teams, soloing with Human-only Lightform.

No Tri-forms ever for Peacebringers, there's not enough slots available. Ditto for dual forms other than Dwarf/Nova, not enough slots for my tastes. Regardless, the forms offer nothing that human lightform doesn't already have except taunt.

Early on, the lack of mez protection in human form, coupled with the proliferation of stunning/knockbacking voids makes it undesirable until lightform is optimized and running most of the time (no sooner than lvl 39, more than half of a character's leveling experience). From level 20 to 39, the slow and clunky Dwarf form the best viable soloing option. In teams, Dwarf and Nova fill in for whatever role the task requires, and during the lower levels (or while exemplared to lvl 14, for example) Dwarf might even be sturdier than a regular tanker.

Post lvl 40 the forms' effectiveness decays significantly to well-slotted ATs, so I usually favor human lightform for extra damage/survivability, unless the team expects me to tank.

Quote:

What is "wrong" with Peacebringers?

First, AT design. Here lies the old problem of the Jack-of-all-Trades, Master-of-None issue, aggravated by the game engine's slotting system. Like all hybrids, Kheldians, each in his own way, try to replicate two roles in the game (tank, dps), but they're significantly weaker in each role when compared to a dedicated AT's performance. This might seem fair, were it not for the fact that, unlike the VEATS, Kheldians can't perform both roles at the same time, being stuck with an inferior semblant of a proper AT.

Worse, merely pressing the Dwarf form button will not make a kheldian a tank, not without proper slotting to boost resistances, taunt efficiency and accuracy/damage of the form's attacks. A situation similar to a Warrior not being able to switch from his DPS gear to Tank gear midbattle. Dual builds help, but these only offer a choice before entering the mission, thus limiting Kheldians' actual adaptability. For a Peacebringer, the best viable multi-role build I could come up with was Dwarf/Nova Biform, performing significantly weaker as a Tank/DPS than would a simple Tanker and a Blaster. Human-only form's role is akin to an epic scrapper (with access to epic pools' ranged attacks and AoE), but doing alot less damage and only reaching a similar level of survivability by lvl 39.

Finally, by merely joining a team they're actually endangering everyone. Voids and Cysts spawn unpredictably, which can lead to spectacular failures during the final fight of a taskforce or trial. Fighting Harbinger and Riptide is hard enough without a million puffs of black smoke slowing everyone down. When playing anything but a Kheldian on a team that's one member short, I often find myself secretly hoping that whoever's signing up to join us ISN'T a Kheldian. They just bring too much trouble for their worth.

Regarding White Dwarf:

- it lacks a taunt aura, and it cannot access power pools to take Presence,
- its resistances are capped at 85% rather than 90%,meaning it will take 50% more damage than a tanker from an enemy's attacks,
- it cannot access power pools to boost its defenses by taking Weave, CJ, etc
- it suffers from being force to cycle 2 ST attacks and an AoE, leaving it with a clunky attack chain full of pauses
- it doesn't have any sort of those debuff resistances that tankers have (lacking endurance-drain resistance is particularly painful)
- it can't fly, even when certain missions require it
- activating White Dwarf's transformation takes several seconds, during which the Kheldian is highly vulnerable to enemy fire
- There's no visual customization, they all look the same (why not color changes, or a Warwolf instead of a crustacean?)


Regarding Bright Nova:

- it lacks the third, stronger ST attack that blasters have, leaving it with a weak, clunky ST attack chain
- it lacks the hard-hitting melee atacks of a blaster
- it lacks the poweful damage-boosting abilities of a blaster (aim+build-up combo)
- it lacks the mitigation tools blasters have available, which include shields in the epic pools, plus toughness/weave/aid self/etc
- it's essencially a watered-down version of a blaster primary with hover as a secondary
- it takes too long to activate Bright Nova's form, making it unnefficient to switch mid-fight
- There's no visual customization, they all look the same (why not color changes, or energy wings that don't hide your character's costume instead of a flying squid)

Quote:

What's wrong with Warshades?

They can't fly. Other than that, ask Dechs Kaison. I always refer to him when it comes to Warshades.

Quote:

What's wrong with the respective human forms?

Peacebringer human form:

- lacks Mez protection for 38 levels, until it gets lightform
- offers only minimal Mez protection even while running lightform, significantly weaker than what is made available to all other ATs that have access to an armor secondary (brutes, scrappers, stalkers, tankers, VEATs)
- is particularly affected by Voids and Quantums' ability to Stun and Knockback
- doesn't do enough ranged damage, the base damage modifier of its ranged attacks (Gleaming Bolt and Glinting Eyes) is just too low
- suffers from exceedingly long animations on certain life-or-death powers, like Boost Essence, Pulsar or Incandescent Strike
- unlike a Warshade, lacks synergy between its two mezzing powers (Pulsar - Stun, Incandescent Strike - Hold)
- has excessive knockback in its AoEs (as opposed to the much more appreciated knockdown)
- is hampered by the complete uselessness of its shields, none of which matter after you've gotten light-form, that detoggle every time you switch to a form, that cost too much endurance for what little they bring, that require too many slots to be optimal, that you can't customize for minimal FX
- lacks customization of its powers

Quote:

How do they, if at all, compare to VEATs

Mechanically, poorly. VEATs fill their hydrid role perfectly, significantly contributing to a team's damage, hitting chance and defense while pumping up respectable amounts of damage themselves. In all of this, VEATs are also armored by their own brand of super-reflexes, offering potentially capped defenses against everything, as well as Mez protection from lvl 10 onwards. From 1-50, VEATs always feel like an epic Archetype, on par with scrappers and brutes when it comes to soloing experience, but on teams they really shine. My night widow just murders everything in front of her, it's uncanny at times, and very addictive. Peacebringers, on the other hand, literally have to crawl their way to lvl 39, only to have their whole survivability dependant on one power - lightform - which nevertheless requires a significant influence investment to make work (around 2 billion inf). Even then Peacebringers still feel like something's wrong with them, too many small things that could have been designed better.

Visually, they're both ok. Could both use a little customization. While VEATs animations aren't to my liking (I'd prefer the Dual Blades animations instead of claws/spines for widows, for example), I love the Arachnos uniforms and their flowing capes/butt capes. Kheldian forms are ugly, but you get used to them, and while the animations are simply recicled versions of the old vanilla powersets, the lighting effects are very beautiful.

In terms of official canon and plot missions, Peacebringers are on another galaxy. The VEAT storyline is by far the least inspired piece of writing in the game, on par with the plot of Tetris or Space Invaders. For the most part, the game completely ignores that you work/worked for Recluse, blatantly so - you have contacts (like Dr. Graves) telling your toon (in uniform!) not to mention any of his nefarious plots to Arachnos... Kheldians, on the other hand, have some of the most complex, well-written stories in the game, and they get to save the world in the end.


All said and done, I'd settle for the addition of either a single attack to each of the Peacebringer's forms, or giving Mez protection to human form by lvl 10. That alone would make the leveling experience smoother.

Thanks for all of the feedback guys! every little bit helps!

Both Tri Form Warshades and Tri Form Peacebringers have enough slots available to slot out attacks well enough, whilst having perma LF and Inner LF almost perma. However you might be trading between dps and flexibility.

Dwarf to direct npcs away from your team mates in trouble, basically tank. Also Break Free from mezzes.

Nova to survive and maintain damage versus some enemies in some cases where Human Form definitely won't.

In no way should Khelds compete at the same level with another ATs main role. Some weaknesses are by design, it's hardly worth pleading poor when other ATs share in same weaknesses. Warshades and Peacebringers are meant to need eachother at times. They're not meant to each be Jack with every tool in the box, just Jack of all Trades. An all Kheld team should be better mixed rather than of one type.

Atm people don't like the KB Peacebringers can do and many other things. Shape shifting isn't quick enough to people and toggles could stay on although be suppressed when doing so. Me personally I have little complaint.

To work out whats wrong with Peacebringers or Warshades I will have to compare them to VEATs rather than eachother. I will slap VEATs into excel sometime this week hopefully to compare but given their tree structure there are 5 themed outcomes and plenty more unthemed. Because the team buff the Kheld, the Kheld should perform better for the team but is it of equal value to what a VEAT (single) can bring? What VEATs can do for team mates essentially comes down to allowing them to get away with mistakes by cutting corners or being less tactless than they normally need to be.

However Kheldians are well pieced together, every power on offer adds a form of flexibility. Everyone can skip the same powers but then perhaps be limited from achieving certain goals that can be potentially achieved by design.

I personally don't give a toot whats in team, everyone should know their assets, using the assets of different people we can normally always come up with a suitable answer to deal with a problem. Every AT, through its powers can be put to use as a duct tape version of another AT. I would tank Ghost Widow using a SO'd Peacebringer as a defender with a SO'd Firetank, for me the tools are there and the answer is therefore simple.

For once, I'm going to post my opinion on here. Simply because I really like what you have to say!

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Dawn In no way should Khelds compete at the same level with another ATs main role. Some weaknesses are by design, it's hardly worth pleading poor when other ATs share in same weaknesses. Warshades and Peacebringers are meant to need eachother at times. They're not meant to each be Jack with every tool in the box, just Jack of all Trades. An all Kheld team should be better mixed rather than of one type.

I completely agree! The whole point of my "research" is finding a way to Kheld's being more themactically fun to play, rather than making a "god-mode" suggested fix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Dawn Atm people don't like the KB Peacebringers can do and many other things. Shape shifting isn't quick enough to people and toggles could stay on although be suppressed when doing so. Me personally I have little complaint.

Coming from a Energy/Energy blaster as my main, i absolutely love the knockback. It's a total thrill to send everyone flying, and therefore something as simple as that isn't going to be part of my solution

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Dawn To work out whats wrong with Peacebringers or Warshades I will have to compare them to VEATs rather than eachother. I will slap VEATs into excel sometime this week hopefully to compare but given their tree structure there are 5 themed outcomes and plenty more unthemed. Because the team buff the Kheld, the Kheld should perform better for the team but is it of equal value to what a VEAT (single) can bring? What VEATs can do for team mates essentially comes down to allowing them to get away with mistakes by cutting corners or being less tactless than they normally need to be. However Kheldians are well pieced together, every power on offer adds a form of flexibility. Everyone can skip the same powers but then perhaps be limited from achieving certain goals that can be potentially achieved by design.

I Agree with your first point; To come up with a proper solution I'm focusing on the differences between EATs (my final question in the OP.) Power-Wise, VEATs are more balanced between theme & function (even up to their patron pools.)

In retrospect, Kheldians are themactically great, but lacks some synergistic functions. My example being the "clone powers" from nova and dwarf; peace bringer side of course. If someone is a shapeshifter, why would they decide to wait a few seconds, change their shape in mid combat, only to fire off the same four blast attacks? From what i've been reading here, that really kills the synergy of the human abilities, and the form powers.

________________

AGAIN. Thank everyone for their helpful information! ^_^

[QUOTE=Bionut911;3985641]

Human, Bi, or Tri-form? Why?Whatever I want for the specific toon.


What is "wrong" with Peacebringers?The forms don't work together (don't bring any benefit to each other.) Slightly "fixed" now with Inner Light being longer than buildup and light form, though I miss the LF look. But there's nothing like the WS dwarf mire/human mire stacking.



What's wrong with Warshades?

Powers unusable vs anything that disappears fast (event zombies, new shivans, ghosts, 5th column drones, rikti drones.)

What's wrong with the respective human forms?

No air-superiority in PB. No hover to pick with WS teleport.

How do they, if at all, compare to VEATsThey're actually fun, and have storylines worth playing.

Ok going back to the whole copy and pasted thing. Attacks of similar name don't mean attacks of similar gain. I might switch to Nova in the right predicament as the shift time would be worth it. If you foresee either using the human form blasts that look like the nova ones for an extended amount of time that is 30s then the shift would be worthwhile. The Novas blasts are of greater DPE and DPS.

Okay, Just a quick research question, I've come across some new Kheldian Lore that I think would be interesting to take into account.

What types of abilities would benefit a tri-form Warshade?

And no, I don't mean things like "toggle suppression" or "knockdown." I mean regular powers like melt armor, mez protection toggle, slow auras, ect..

-Thanks for any info you guys can provide!