Sprit Sharks in Siren's Call


Antigonus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
There's a huge difference between an interruptible melee attack (Assassin's Strike) nearly doing one-shot damage, and an 80-foot-base ranged attack from hide nearly doing one-shot damage.
Thats all that really needs to be said. Its a silly power. Just one of the long list of powers that need balancing.

As far as OP'd powers go in the past (see ET nerf for reference) don't hold your breath on a fix. It may take awhile... and the direction PvP's been going during the last few years, possibly never.


 

Posted

Quote:
In SC you'd be an idiot to ever use AS at this point.
So, on the one hand, we (as Stalkers) suck if we don't AS, and on the other
hand we're idiots if we're actually good enough to use it...

Once again - sorry, but nope, I'm not with you on this one either.


Regards,
4


I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourSpeed View Post
So, on the one hand, we (as Stalkers) suck if we don't AS, and on the other
hand we're idiots if we're actually good enough to use it...

Once again - sorry, but nope, I'm not with you on this one either.


Regards,
4
Maybe in RV but in SC sharks is all yah need baby.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourSpeed View Post
Sorry, no sale.

Not that I completely disagree, mind you. But, as others have noted, there
are a metric crapton of powers that are "unbalanced", and Sharks would be
one of them on the list.

As a stalker myself, there are two primary concerns I have.

AS - won't kill anybody by itself... I'm actually ok with that.

However, with nearly everyone being a SJ/SS bunny-hopping, super speeder,
AS is challenging to get off in the first place, given it's a melee power, long
activating, and interruptible with movement, all against a foe that can probably
see you at melee range to begin with....

It's hardly surprising that many stalkers simply don't get good enough to use AS
all that much to begin with in PvP.

But the second part, with Stalkers being melee based, is said Bunny Hopper is
gonna be long gone for the follow-up strike even if an AS is landed.

So, even with AS, a ranged follow-up is a key ingredient for a stalker to get a
kill at all against anyone other than a complete moron.

I'm not a fan at all of Sharks being the *only* tool a (bad) stalker uses, but a hard
hitting ranged power is important for a stalker given the current climate.

So, nope - /unsigned


Regards,
4


PS> And yes, Ares - I *do* play in SC, pretty much exclusively, as you probably already know
I've played in sirens on many occasion and stalkers did perfectly fine before sharks. AS is a lot more powerful in sirens. Granted in RV sharks are pretty much needed to compete because of the awful PvP changes, but in sirens call its a whole different story. If you need sharks in sirens you're doing it wrong. Granted I don't blame people for using the tools the dev's put in their hands, but still...

But to be honest, sirens is so dead its not worth the time putting in a fix for this. How many players would actually benefit from it? Maybe 1% if that.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmegHead View Post
But to be honest, sirens is so dead its not worth the time putting in a fix for this. How many players would actually benefit from it? Maybe 1% if that.
Same EXACT logic PVE players use. PVP is 1% of the market etc etc...meanwhile im wasting tons of money on stupid enhancement slots and such.


 

Posted

These days, Stalkers are far less effective than they've ever been at any point
in the past.

With iStuff, Stalkers are pretty much rep-bait in RV, or at best, a minimal factor
in battle outcome.

Nobody is ever in Bloody Bay, and rarely Warburg, so no factor there either...

Historically, they've been banned or limited on Arena League teams, so minimal
factor there either.

SC is pretty much the only zone where Stalkers can have an appreciable impact
and even there it has been reduced in recent times.

I'd be curious to see the Devs datamining on PvP kills, but I'd wager that Stalker
kills are WAY down from the early days.

So, basically, what you're essentially calling for is Stalkers to be removed from
the game, given that their effectiveness has continually de-volved pretty much
since PvP was rolled out.

Frankly, I'd prefer to see PvP as a whole removed from the game first.

Of course, a better answer would be for the Devs to actually understand PvP
and do it *right* to begin with, but I'm serously doubtful that will occur.


Regards,
4


I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.

 

Posted

Sharks are OP in zones, just need a few of them to get a kill because of TS/HD. But AS is extremely easy to use in zones because of TS, so you're bad if you don't use it.


[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourSpeed View Post
So, basically, what you're essentially calling for is Stalkers to be removed from
the game, given that their effectiveness has continually de-volved pretty much
since PvP was rolled out.
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is exactly what i'm calling for by saying drop a single power 3 tiers down.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourSpeed View Post
These days, Stalkers are far less effective than they've ever been at any point
in the past.

With iStuff, Stalkers are pretty much rep-bait in RV, or at best, a minimal factor
in battle outcome.

Nobody is ever in Bloody Bay, and rarely Warburg, so no factor there either...

Historically, they've been banned or limited on Arena League teams, so minimal
factor there either.

SC is pretty much the only zone where Stalkers can have an appreciable impact
and even there it has been reduced in recent times.

I'd be curious to see the Devs datamining on PvP kills, but I'd wager that Stalker
kills are WAY down from the early days.

So, basically, what you're essentially calling for is Stalkers to be removed from
the game, given that their effectiveness has continually de-volved pretty much
since PvP was rolled out.

Frankly, I'd prefer to see PvP as a whole removed from the game first.

Of course, a better answer would be for the Devs to actually understand PvP
and do it *right* to begin with, but I'm serously doubtful that will occur.


Regards,
4
I think you are exaggerating his point a little, Stalkers never had Sharks in Sirens until i21, and they did fine with AS and follow up attacks. I don't think it's outrageous to believe that they are more powerful in Sirens then RV or arena (Sharks), and I can understand why one might want them taken out.

Even still, if something was done to tweak Stalkers, I would rather it be a small nerf to Stalker ranged attacks followed by a buff to AS to compensate, so that people HAVE to use AS again, but still have it be worthwhile.


@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Katalyst View Post
I think you are exaggerating his point a little, Stalkers never had Sharks in Sirens until i21, and they did fine with AS and follow up attacks. I don't think it's outrageous to believe that they are more powerful in Sirens then RV or arena (Sharks), and I can understand why one might want them taken out.

Even still, if something was done to tweak Stalkers, I would rather it be a small nerf to Stalker ranged attacks followed by a buff to AS to compensate, so that people HAVE to use AS again, but still have it be worthwhile.
This I can totally sign off on.


 

Posted

Also, part of the reason Stalkers are less effective in arena is because what they are used for is ASing on spikes, and since AS is not amazingly powerful anymore, you're better off just running blasters or doms instead most of the time in an 8v8 situation. You need 2-3 Stalkers in order to have any real effective Stalker based spike in most cases.

If AS was buffed that would help solve that problem some.


@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.

 

Posted

I have long been of the opinion that no AT should be able to 1 or 2 shot anybody. Any power being able to do that in any zone is a problem, regardless of the justifications that people make up.

Sharks is a problem not only because of the ability to deliver a huge packet of damage from complete safety at range (which not even Blasters can do), but also because it minimizes the ATs most powerfull attack. A well slotted AS even in it's nerfed form deals about 50% more damage than Sharks. The ability to AS a moving target has long been seen as one of the last indicators of skill left in the game, but now is looked at with disdain because Sharks is easier and safer. In other words, we are dumbing down an already dumb process.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Katalyst View Post
I think you are exaggerating his point a little, Stalkers never had Sharks in Sirens until i21, and they did fine with AS and follow up attacks. I don't think it's outrageous to believe that they are more powerful in Sirens then RV or arena (Sharks), and I can understand why one might want them taken out.

Even still, if something was done to tweak Stalkers, I would rather it be a small nerf to Stalker ranged attacks followed by a buff to AS to compensate, so that people HAVE to use AS again, but still have it be worthwhile.
It's no more an exaggeration on my part than his.

The *only* way for a Stalker to get an AS kill is to essentially "kill-steal" against
an already damaged player.

Without a ranged follow-up, you're not going to get a follow-up at all against
most SJ/SS bunny-hoppers.

If you do the crit first, you probably don't get an AS at all.

So, basically, he's complaining that someone spiking him from range with Sharks
is somehow worse than being spiked from range with Psi by stealthed blasters
or Doms...

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

If the Devs want to tweak recharge or damage of Sharks somewhat, I'm more or less
ok with that (depending on how ridiculous they get), but to remove it entirely,
nope...


Regards,
4


I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AresSupreme View Post
Same EXACT logic PVE players use. PVP is 1% of the market etc etc...meanwhile im wasting tons of money on stupid enhancement slots and such.
Because PvP gets worse and worse as time passes IMO. The horrid changes destroyed a once strong PvP community and as PvP sits on the devs back burner it looses more and more players. At this point it really isnt worth working on PvP fixes from a dev standpoint. The player base doesn't justify the expense. Why work on something hardly anyone plays when they can make moar trialz for the pve crowd!!1! And lets be honest, PvP needs A TON of work. Its not something I'm going to hold my breath for.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourSpeed View Post
It's no more an exaggeration on my part than his.

The *only* way for a Stalker to get an AS kill is to essentially "kill-steal" against
an already damaged player.

Without a ranged follow-up, you're not going to get a follow-up at all against
most SJ/SS bunny-hoppers.

If you do the crit first, you probably don't get an AS at all.

So, basically, he's complaining that someone spiking him from range with Sharks
is somehow worse than being spiked from range with Psi by stealthed blasters
or Doms...

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

If the Devs want to tweak recharge or damage of Sharks somewhat, I'm more or less
ok with that (depending on how ridiculous they get), but to remove it entirely,
nope...


Regards,
4
I haven't exaggerated anything I have stated pure fact. And you are damn right it is worse than being spiked by a blaster. And I love how you throw "stealthed" in there as if "stealthed" players are hard to see or something. Stalkers are far easier to survive on in SC than ANY blaster and that is no exaggeration. You are basically saying a stalker should be able to do as much damage as a blaster from range by comparing it to a blaster...


 

Posted

I see what you're trying to do here Ares, but this should be at the very bottom of the priority list. I say leave it alone, nobody uses Sirens anyway. Please file an in-game petition for stuff like this that doesn't really matter, instead of clogging our forums. Thanks.


http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6685529/3-hot-and-vex-3

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borderline Boss View Post
I see what you're trying to do here Ares, but this should be at the very bottom of the priority list. I say leave it alone, nobody uses Sirens anyway. Please file an in-game petition for stuff like this that doesn't really matter, instead of clogging our forums. Thanks.
Or realize how idiotic that statement is when you consider how small the PVP community is compared to the PVE community. Thanks.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourSpeed View Post
It's no more an exaggeration on my part than his.

The *only* way for a Stalker to get an AS kill is to essentially "kill-steal" against
an already damaged player.

Without a ranged follow-up, you're not going to get a follow-up at all against
most SJ/SS bunny-hoppers.

If you do the crit first, you probably don't get an AS at all.

So, basically, he's complaining that someone spiking him from range with Sharks
is somehow worse than being spiked from range with Psi by stealthed blasters
or Doms...

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

If the Devs want to tweak recharge or damage of Sharks somewhat, I'm more or less
ok with that (depending on how ridiculous they get), but to remove it entirely,
nope...


Regards,
4
All he asked for was to move the power one spot down so it wouldn't be accessible in sirens. I don't think that's a unwarranted request. Stalker are easy to play there without sharks. I never said anything about removing it and I'm pretty sure the OP stated he didn't want a nerf to sharks just a level swap. Are people really seeing that as a issue?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AresSupreme View Post
Or realize how idiotic that statement is when you consider how small the PVP community is compared to the PVE community. Thanks.
Just because you don't agree with something please don't deem it "idiotic". If people did this, every post you've made in your life would be considered "idiotic".


http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6685529/3-hot-and-vex-3

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borderline Boss View Post
Just because you don't agree with something please don't deem it "idiotic". If people did this, every post you've made in your life would be considered "idiotic".
Let's pretend your execution was anything but condescending. Ignore all my logic. Typical. Not that the entire PVP community is small fraction of the game as a whole. It is easy for PVE player to say well "To hell with PVP changes, no one pvps. More cat girl tails please!"

Reread everything i just wrote about 10x then realize why I called your particular statement idiotic. NOT every statement anyone ever wrote.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AresSupreme View Post
I haven't exaggerated anything I have stated pure fact. And you are damn right it is worse than being spiked by a blaster. And I love how you throw "stealthed" in there as if "stealthed" players are hard to see or something. Stalkers are far easier to survive on in SC than ANY blaster and that is no exaggeration. You are basically saying a stalker should be able to do as much damage as a blaster from range by comparing it to a blaster...
No - you're expressing opinions: Sharks is OP, Blasters are less survivable
than Stalkers, Stealthed toons are easy to see, etc.

How do you measure these so-called facts?

Kill ratio? Rep? Bounty? SC Zone-control?

Opinions...

Stealth is easy to see? Try following Vegita-Beta around sometime...

Survivable? Ask -DriveBy about that...

He's a very "successful" PvPer, with several ATs, but I'd bet his kill ratio
with Stalkers is fairly low - ie. he gets killed as often (or more) than he
kills.

Stalkers are "surviable" when they *don't* engage.

But, in most cases, a lone stalker usually gets summarily ganked as soon as he's
detected, unless he plays a very conservative style (as mine do).

If he hasn't built for capped Stealth by SC time, he's pure farm bait.


So, no - I dispute your "facts", and our opinions distinctly differ. No worries
or animosity there, I simply disagree that Sharks should be removed from SC,
although, as I've previously stated, tweaks might be warranted (true for a LOT
of things in PvP imho).


4


I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourSpeed View Post
No - you're expressing opinions: Sharks is OP, Blasters are less survivable
than Stalkers, Stealthed toons are easy to see, etc.

How do you measure these so-called facts?

Kill ratio? Rep? Bounty? SC Zone-control?

Opinions...

Stealth is easy to see? Try following Vegita-Beta around sometime...

Survivable? Ask -DriveBy about that...

He's a very "successful" PvPer, with several ATs, but I'd bet his kill ratio
with Stalkers is fairly low - ie. he gets killed as often (or more) than he
kills.

Stalkers are "surviable" when they *don't* engage.

But, in most cases, a lone stalker usually gets summarily ganked as soon as he's
detected, unless he plays a very conservative style (as mine do).

If he hasn't built for capped Stealth by SC time, he's pure farm bait.


So, no - I dispute your "facts", and our opinions distinctly differ. No worries
or animosity there, I simply disagree that Sharks should be removed from SC,
although, as I've previously stated, tweaks might be warranted (true for a LOT
of things in PvP imho).


4
Which you've stated like 15 times. You don't agree. I get it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Katalyst View Post
Also, part of the reason Stalkers are less effective in arena is because what they are used for is ASing on spikes, and since AS is not amazingly powerful anymore, you're better off just running blasters or doms instead most of the time in an 8v8 situation. You need 2-3 Stalkers in order to have any real effective Stalker based spike in most cases.

If AS was buffed that would help solve that problem some.

Its not that AS isn't very powerful in 8v8's its the fact that 8v8's have unsupressed movement more so than b4 issue 13. Its harder now to get off an AS without a setup in arena than ever before. Secondly blasters don't have to wait to get into hide and wait for thier target to stand someplace for more than 1.5 seconds. Fact is Blasters can just outright out kill a stalker due to set up and hide time.


@-Kurgain

-FAP-Renegades-Whirligig-Velocity-Bedlam

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AresSupreme View Post
Let's pretend your execution was anything but condescending. Ignore all my logic. Typical. Not that the entire PVP community is small fraction of the game as a whole. It is easy for PVE player to say well "To hell with PVP changes, no one pvps. More cat girl tails please!"

Reread everything i just wrote about 10x then realize why I called your particular statement idiotic. NOT every statement anyone ever wrote.
The majority of the PvP population, as represented in this thread, agree that sharks are OP, but also realize it's not on the top of the list. There are too many problems to make further threads like these. I hope you can open your eyes and see what a mistake you're making. Spirit Sharks in SC??? Try TS, HD, TK, stalagmites, AS does no dam, etc etc etc! You need to prioritize yourself or get lost!


http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6685529/3-hot-and-vex-3

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmegHead View Post
...Stalker are easy to play there without sharks...
And your SC Stalker's name is?

They're easy to play if you like being dead a lot...
They're easy to play if you don't care about getting kills.

Note: I've stated that I'm against Sharks as the *only* tool a Stalker should use.

That said, my particular stalker (NB/Nin) does not *have* a ranged attack unless
I use Sharks or Nemmie Staff.

Maybe if something like Caltrops actually worked in zone - I wouldn't need one.
Of course, that's why everyone takes SJ/SS, so they can completely ignore
them.

So, your answer then is - pick another powerset, noob...

Right, and *that* more than anything is what is wrong about PvP - most powersets
are crap in PvP - which is why you typically see the same 1/2 dozen ATs.

That brings me full-circle to - devs need to fix (or delete) PvP...

It's not about this or that power - it's about a seriously crappy system and
implementation in the first place...


4


I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.