Some sets are resistance based, some are defense based. With very careful slotting, it's possible to pick up a lot of defense, but not so much with resistance. So, if you have a resistance based set (like elec) you can end up with a lot of resistance, and defense. If you have a defense based it, it's easier to get a lot of defense, but you'll never get really high resistance numbers.
So, if you want maxed layered protectional values, resistance sets are the way to go, but since most people for most things consider defense the more important of the 2 values, defense lets you get those values high more easily, and then focus elsewhere.
So, to answer your final question, resistance is very important, but most people consider defense to be the numbers to really shoot for. (Although it might also be that defense is the only number most people really *can* chase for in any meaning amount.)
I've read somewhere on these forums once (I believe it was based on Arcanavilles math, but I could be wrong) that, functionally speaking, every 1% of defense you have is roughly equal to 3% resistance. Or something like that. In other words, defense is more valuable and provides more mitigation. However, layered defenses is usually the best way to go, if you can.
there are links to really well laid out arguments about how/why defense is much better than resistance. I don't link things. But I do know the truth of it. Defense is by far the better of the two to have.
In general, if you have 20 attacks coming at you doing 1,000 each heres how it goes. If you have softcap def (45%) 1 of those attacks will hit (on avg) for 1,000. Then you get to resist with whatever you got, then your health takes the hit. (layered defenses = def/res/health) Same attack with 5% def running (similar to what some sets run) 1 attack misses, 19 hit. 19,000 pts damage. say you got capped resistance 90%, you take 1,900 pts.
Furthermore, the more you look at maxing/capping/chasing bonuses thru I/os, the more obvious it becomes that its easier to chase def than res. And since Def is more effective point for point...
If you armor up with a set like Invul you get good resistance, and then add a lot of def bonuses, and Invul has very good heal capability (along with def debuff res) you get a very hardy tanker/Brute/Scrapper. Compare with taking a defense only set like SR or Ice, where you are largely missing one or two of those layers.
Your maths is slightly wrong in some respects, BC.
The first bit is fine (20 attacks, 45% Def, 1 will hit).
If you have 5% def, then 45% of the attacks will hit (9 of them) for 9,000.
So, a toon with Def 45% and 10% resist will take 900 damage, and a toon with 90% Resist and 5% def will take the same 900 damage, which is where the approximate equivalence of 1% Def to 2% Resist comes from.
Generally, Defense is easier to come by from set bonuses, which seems to be why many people are proponents of getting soft-capped Defense.
The point about layered protection is well said, though: would you rather a) not get hit (Defense); b) take less damage when you do get hit (Resistance); or c) recover quickly from the damage (max hp and regen)? Generally, avoiding being hit in the first place is safer.
I believe Arcanaville has previously stated that to maximise the layered protections, you should first aim for soft capped Defence (prevent damage), then get your Resistance as high as possible (minimise damage taken) and then increase your regen and/or max hp (recover from the damage quickly), if the toon is able. Ultimately, though, you should play to your toon's strengths.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Same attack with 5% def running (similar to what some sets run) 1 attack misses, 19 hit. 19,000 pts damage.
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Since the base chance for a mob to hit a player is 50%, having 5% defense means that, on average, 9 out of 20 attacks would hit, not 19. On those 20 attacks that do 1,000 damage the character with no +defense and 90% resistance to the damage type in question would end up taking, on average, 1,000 damage (the same as the soft-capped defense with no resistance.)
Damage typed defense does have advantages in that an attack with mixed damage types (say smashing/energy) will hit based on whichever of the damage types the character has the most defense against. Resistance will effect only the portion of the damage that is tagged as that particular type. Positional defense such as that from shields or super reflexes ignores the damage type completely and only considers whether the attack is ranged, melee, or AOE (Note: Some attacks do not have a position tag and are thus unaffected by positional defense.)
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Layered defenses are why Stone tankers in Granite+Rooted are so unkillable, they have high defense, very high resistance and high regeneration. It's also why a defense built Invuln tank is so tough.|
Originally Posted by Shadowe
Your maths is slightly wrong in some respects, BC.
The first bit is fine (20 attacks, 45% Def, 1 will hit). If you have 5% def, then 45% of the attacks will hit (9 of them) for 9,000. So, a toon with Def 45% and 10% resist will take 900 damage, and a toon with 90% Resist and 5% def will take the same 900 damage, which is where the approximate equivalence of 1% Def to 2% Resist comes from. Generally, Defense is easier to come by from set bonuses, which seems to be why many people are proponents of getting soft-capped Defense. The point about layered protection is well said, though: would you rather a) not get hit (Defense); b) take less damage when you do get hit (Resistance); or c) recover quickly from the damage (max hp and regen)? Generally, avoiding being hit in the first place is safer. I believe Arcanaville has previously stated that to maximise the layered protections, you should first aim for soft capped Defence (prevent damage), then get your Resistance as high as possible (minimise damage taken) and then increase your regen and/or max hp (recover from the damage quickly), if the toon is able. Ultimately, though, you should play to your toon's strengths. |
Basically the way things stand now it's impossible to acquire meaningful amounts of resistance on a character with IO bonuses; there simply aren't enough set bonuses that give resistance to anything but Psi. Oh, by some extremely unusual and sub optimal slotting you may manage to get as much as 5% resistance to one damage type, maybe even up to 10% in some corner cases. On the other hand it's quite possible to build up considerable defense due to the lopsided amount of set bonuses available. That's why most of the knowledgeable players recommend building for defense; you can actually get a meaningful amount of that.
Regeneration is another area where it's quite possible to get a decent amount via IO bonuses; typically you can add +100% regen without too much trouble.
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Close. It's 2%, not 3%. That comes from the fact that, on average, every 1% of defense causes you avoid 2% more attacks directed against you assuming your foes have no +toHit and you have no -defense on you. This is derived directly from the game's attack mechanics.|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
I've read somewhere on these forums once (I believe it was based on Arcanavilles math, but I could be wrong) that, functionally speaking, every 1% of defense you have is roughly equal to 3% resistance. Or something like that. In other words, defense is more valuable and provides more mitigation. However, layered defenses is usually the best way to go, if you can.
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Defense and resistance have different benefits. Under conditions of high-damage attacks, such that only a few blows is likely to defeat you absent some mitigation, resistance mitigation is less likely to experience sudden defeat due to "bad luck". In contrast, because any blow that hits through defense hits for its full power (absent any resistance), a rapid string of unlucky hits on you can lead to abrupt defeat.
On the other hand, resistance doesn't avoid anything, so any debuffs or other effects that come bundled with attack damage are more likely to hit a resistance oriented character than a defense-based one.
However, there is a core reason that, these days, defense is more plentiful than resistance. Defense has a very straightforward Achilles heel, already mentioned: +toHit and/or -defense.
In terms of game mechanics, applying X% resistance debuff always works out to an X% increase in DPS affecting you.* However, this is not true for defense and defense debuffs. If X% defense debuff hits you, how much average DPS increase that causes to hit you depends on how much defense you started with. Worse, if your defense was keeping additional debuffs from landing, as soon as one hits, it's now easier for more of them to hit, and as more hit, it becomes easier and easier.
Because of this, the devs are more willing to give out defense, because it can fail abruptly and they can significantly weaken its benefits fairly easily, where there is not as much they can do with resistance.
* The only rough equivalent to defense debuffs against resistance are unresistable resistance debuffs. However, the devs have largely avoided using these against player characters in PvE, and have removed the only examples I know of where they did put this is in PvE - Longbow Nullifiers. Even with irresistable debuffs, resistance failure would not accelerate the way defense debuffs cause defense to.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Thanks for the good info... It just seems like u can build good defense on any toon even the ones that are resistance based.. why not have your cake and eat it too..
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Originally Posted by ryancowboy6
Thanks for the good info... It just seems like u can build good defense on any toon even the ones that are resistance based.. why not have your cake and eat it too..
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You can, but to get capped to everything, or even just the biggies is a lot more expensive, both in terms of inf/time/assortedmerits and in terms of power slots that have to be dedicated to the goal, or powers that have to be slotted with X, or Y power only need 2 slots, but I'm six slotting it for set bonuses that I can't pick up elsewhere. Sure, you end up with as much def or close to as much def as the def based set, but the def based set just throws a few things at def, picks up tough, and he's about done with defense and resistance. Everything else can go toward regen, +HP, Recharge, +Dmg, or utility powers.
If you want absolute toughness, resistance based sets, then layer on a lot of defense. Defense based sets will not get as tough at the ultra high end, but get capped a lot easier, and if you have a ton of money afterward, can be made ridiculous in other ways.
Both ways have their merits, and their supporters and detractors.
Some people even like both, depending on their mood. Having a kitted out Resistance alt with def to boot, and a kitted out def based alt, now that's having your cake and eating it, too.
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Note that resistance-based characters typically have poor defense debuff resistance (DDR), and can be stripped of that defense fairly quickly by some kinds of enemies. Most defense-based powersets have significant DDR and can minimize or even shrug off defense debuffs. So at the high end of durability, resistance-based powersets with a lot of defense investment are (typically) tougher than defense-based powersets unless defense debuffs are involved, in which case the pendulum swings the other way.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
If you want absolute toughness, resistance based sets, then layer on a lot of defense. Defense based sets will not get as tough at the ultra high end, but get capped a lot easier, and if you have a ton of money afterward, can be made ridiculous in other ways.
Both ways have their merits, and their supporters and detractors. |
Enough enemies have defense debuffs to make this a significant factor, but it's not a dominant factor.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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Another thing to consider here, is that fact that even some defense based sets don't have capped DDR. Only 2 power sets can cap DDR, and 1 needs to use a 'exploit' to do it. the ones that can cap are SR and Shield. The other defense sets, like Ice armor, EA, ninjitsu, and even hybrid sets, like invuln, willpower, and stone armor provide anywhere from 17.3%(willpower) to 51.6% (EA) DDR.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Note that resistance-based characters typically have poor defense debuff resistance (DDR), and can be stripped of that defense fairly quickly by some kinds of enemies. Most defense-based powersets have significant DDR and can minimize or even shrug off defense debuffs. So at the high end of durability, resistance-based powersets with a lot of defense investment are (typically) tougher than defense-based powersets unless defense debuffs are involved, in which case the pendulum swings the other way.
Enough enemies have defense debuffs to make this a significant factor, but it's not a dominant factor. |
Only 4 armor sets provide no form of DDR at all, those being regeneration, dark armor, fire armor, and electric armor. Now, they do have other toys (regeneration has click heals and high passive regen, dark armor has high resistances and the best heal in the game, fire armor has high resistances, very offensive, and a nice heal, and electric armor can be used to sap things and has a good enough heal to cover most holes) and adding defense to them will help out a lot (due to the layered concept) cascading failure is much more likely on those 4 powersets, then the others listed.
Arb, you said "Only 2 power sets can cap DDR, and 1 needs to use a 'exploit' to do it. the ones that can cap are SR and Shield.".... I have a SR stalker..Can you dumb that down for me a bit and maybe give me an example? Thanks.
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In order to cap DDR on a Shield scrapper you'll need to slot Membrane HO's (technically an exploit as the power doesn't take defense buff slotting) into Active Defense to "sneak" in enhancement of AD's DDR; even then you need enough recharge to double stack AD. It's doable, but it 'ain't easy or cheap.|
Originally Posted by ryancowboy6
Arb, you said "Only 2 power sets can cap DDR, and 1 needs to use a 'exploit' to do it. the ones that can cap are SR and Shield.".... I have a SR stalker..Can you dumb that down for me a bit and maybe give me an example? Thanks.
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SR on the other hand simply needs to ED cap the defense slotting of all it's defenses in order to cap DDR... you can get it done with SO's.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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For def and res playing to strength is better since they get better the higher you go. But regen isn't like that. Adding X regen is no better if you're at 300% regen than it would be if you were at 10% regen. If your strength is regen, build for max HP and visa versa. They complement each other, but not themselves.
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Originally Posted by Shadowe
I believe Arcanaville has previously stated that to maximise the layered protections, you should first aim for soft capped Defence (prevent damage), then get your Resistance as high as possible (minimise damage taken) and then increase your regen and/or max hp (recover from the damage quickly), if the toon is able. Ultimately, though, you should play to your toon's strengths.
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They have never said this is an exploit. Slotting damage to easily cap resist is an exploit (using one type of enhancement to affect another), but simply slotting something not normally allowed has never been called out as an exploit.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
technically an exploit as the power doesn't take defense buff slotting
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Another point for thought is randomness.
I'm not a high end tanker or anything like that, but part of the 'cost' of specializing in defense is that 'on average' that gets tacked on to everything.
With resistance, you know that every attack that lands will do x% less damage, you can rely on that.
With regen/high hp you know you can take X damage per second, or X total damage. You can rely on that.
With defense, even slight deviations of randomness can get ugly fast.
In those 20 attacks, on average you are taking 900 damage. a slight randomness of a second attack hitting you puts you to 1800, a big swing of say 4 hitting you gives a pretty scary 3600.
That resistance fellow tho, well, if he takes a few extra hits, hes probably going to be ok. If every attack hits him, hes still in the ballpark of slight variance of 2 hits on the defense guy.
This makes him a lot more capable of dealing with an angry RNG.
Its also part of what makes layered defense so strong. Eventually, you will get that bad set of rolls. Once in a 100 groups, your softcapped defense eats 5 or 6 hits out of the 20 attack alpha, and if he doesnt have some resistance to back that up, hes eating dirt.
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Okay, it has been pointed out above that some of my math was off. To be picky, my math was fine, my underlying facts were way off on the statements I made lol.|
Originally Posted by HexDuke
Another point for thought is randomness.
I'm not a high end tanker or anything like that, but part of the 'cost' of specializing in defense is that 'on average' that gets tacked on to everything. With resistance, you know that every attack that lands will do x% less damage, you can rely on that. With regen/high hp you know you can take X damage per second, or X total damage. You can rely on that. With defense, even slight deviations of randomness can get ugly fast. In those 20 attacks, on average you are taking 900 damage. a slight randomness of a second attack hitting you puts you to 1800, a big swing of say 4 hitting you gives a pretty scary 3600. That resistance fellow tho, well, if he takes a few extra hits, hes probably going to be ok. If every attack hits him, hes still in the ballpark of slight variance of 2 hits on the defense guy. This makes him a lot more capable of dealing with an angry RNG. Its also part of what makes layered defense so strong. Eventually, you will get that bad set of rolls. Once in a 100 groups, your softcapped defense eats 5 or 6 hits out of the 20 attack alpha, and if he doesnt have some resistance to back that up, hes eating dirt. |
But here is a statement I can make definitively. I have run a Willpower / Strength Tank Softcapped to all damage types. Wow. it was in my over four years in the game the absolutely easiest run i ever had. I could tank anything on it. I even tanked Recluse in the last TF blueside where the softcap does not apply. Call it luck, but I held him solo for about 5 minutes. Literally able to tank anything. Now, i had to taunt constant, cause Willpower has a crap agro aura, but never had a problem wading into the ugliest of fights. For incarnate I went for + Def and +Heals whenever possible. So in the iTrials i was still tanking easy.
I also ran a Invulnerability Brute for the 1st year i was in the cities. When you hit unstoppable resists go up to 90%, yet I faceplanted with Unstoppable up a few times.
Those are my experiences with resistance and defense. Good luck in the cities!
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I'm not persuaded that's enough difference to exempt it from being considered an exploit.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
They have never said this is an exploit. Slotting damage to easily cap resist is an exploit (using one type of enhancement to affect another), but simply slotting something not normally allowed has never been called out as an exploit.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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True, but Invulnerability's 50% DDR is significant enough to survive considerable debuffing (in conjunction with high defense, especially if you overslot a little above the soft cap). In my experience, Willpower's 17.x% is NOT enough to degrade defense debuffs enough to help. Hence my use of the qualifier "significant."
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Another thing to consider here, is that fact that even some defense based sets don't have capped DDR. Only 2 power sets can cap DDR, and 1 needs to use a 'exploit' to do it. the ones that can cap are SR and Shield. The other defense sets, like Ice armor, EA, ninjitsu, and even hybrid sets, like invuln, willpower, and stone armor provide anywhere from 17.3%(willpower) to 51.6% (EA) DDR.
Only 4 armor sets provide no form of DDR at all, those being regeneration, dark armor, fire armor, and electric armor. |
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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It's been noted by the devs in the past. And apparently there isn't an easy fix for it. In the past, it's been left alone and considered a "fringe benefit" of using HOs as opposed to IOs. But there have been no promises that, in the future, if they figure out a way to patch it, that they won't.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
I'm not persuaded that's enough difference to exempt it from being considered an exploit.
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IIRC, IOs don't have this "problem" because of their specific categorization system.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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According to Paragon Wiki, Castle did say at one time that this was considered an exploit. However I was unable to find the original post where he said this.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
They have never said this is an exploit. Slotting damage to easily cap resist is an exploit (using one type of enhancement to affect another), but simply slotting something not normally allowed has never been called out as an exploit.
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The only reason this long-standing bug has remained is due to the difficulty to fix it and the fact the devs have more things on their plate than they can currently handle currently.
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Its an exploit with a lower e, meaning the player is taking advantage of an unintended game implementation flaw to create a benefit the design didn't intent. As a lower-e exploit, it could go away at any time without warning and without notification. The devs have no obligation to ask the players permission to change this, nor do they even have any obligation to forewarn players. In fact, if a "bug" in the game suddenly fixed this, the devs would be under no perceived obligation to change it back.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
They have never said this is an exploit. Slotting damage to easily cap resist is an exploit (using one type of enhancement to affect another), but simply slotting something not normally allowed has never been called out as an exploit.
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Its not an Exploit with a capital-E: the devs are not going to punish players for doing it. Except possibly by taking it away one day. You can't get banned for doing it or anything, because the devs have acknowledged the bug and said it was unintended but not a priority to address. Such bugs are never the cause of disciplinary action by the game operators.
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I thought the exploit was being able to use the Category A Defense Debuff enhancements to buff Defense in powers, instead of needing to use the Category B Defense Buff enhancements.
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that's part of it. You can also use category A damage to buff resistance instead of category b resist buff. Hence the slotting now popular among warshades for eclipse of dual nucleus getting you way over the ED cap on resistance in two slots.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
I thought the exploit was being able to use the Category A Defense Debuff enhancements to buff Defense in powers, instead of needing to use the Category B Defense Buff enhancements.
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I have been playing around with mids hero builder for a while now.. It just seems no matter how u tweek some builds u just cant cap out or get close to max resistance...This seems to be because of the actual power they have and not how its slotted.. ex. My elec/elec stalker can cap out 75% on resistance...and My energy/ss stalker cant even get close, but my Defense numbers are about the same.. How important is Resistance than Defense?