City of Heroes is the World Wrestling Federation of Superhero MMOs

I'm sorry when was this mythical area that required 'skill'?

The days of burn tankers herding entire maps?

Or perhaps you mean after the GDN/ED where teams of fire/rad corrupters could make any content a joke?

Sorry but CoH has never required 'skill', most MMOs don't require skill, they require pattern memorisation at most.

I think can understand what he means.. Croat would be a good example of it.

If I recall right the entire zone was build with the idea as a testing ground of new technologies in mission telling. They had all these new ways to tell stories in missions so they used Croat to let them do so. But Croat as a zone is pretty much not needed in the greater storytelling of CoH's meta arc. It exists for a speciifc level and things there are only refered to within that zone.. I think that there is even only 1 meantion of it outside of the zone in the form of a badge, other then reusing the assests for the valentine event in pocket D. They could remove the zone and few would even know that it was removed as it has no real effect on the overall continuity of the game's story as a whole. Croat exists to show off the mission tech of that time.

Later zones like Faultline, and the Rikti warzone were build with the technologies that were introduced in Croat as well as additional tech but those zones added to the overall continuity of the game's storyarcs. Built upon and expanded on what already existed just did it in a better means to tell the story in a more compelling way. The tech exists and was used tell a more compelling story.

Use the tech to tell a compelling story.. don't use the story to just show off the tech. If that makes any sense.

Saying that 'this game has no challenge' is equivalent to saying 'this gameplay sucks'. I happen to agree with that sentiment. But it was not always so.

Once upon a time, despite what some might claim, CoH did in fact require skill to master. Leveling used to be much more difficult, and the penalty for death much greater. Inspirations were rarer and there were no difficulty adjustments. Players would find some missions simply impossible to solo, and challenging even in groups.

I isn't that way any longer. It hasn't been for some time.

The decline in challenge started with the difficulty adjusters; the Hero Corps representatives and the Fortunatas. Once a player had the ability to run in super-easy mode, the devs no longer cared about mission design. There's no more smooth curve of escalating difficulty. You might run into a handful of mooks one mission and an ambush-happy archvillain fight the next. Today, a player looking for challenge has to run back and forth to the difficulty adjuster several times per story arc. Fighting three minions at a time is boring, but an Elite Boss is unmanageable for some characters. The solo game is either boring or impossible. That's because mission design has been abandoned in favor of giving players an 'I win' button.

Even on easiest difficulty, the low level game was still challenging. Before level 20 characters were always running out of endurance, with only a few unslotted powers and too many enemies to face. (The Going Rogue content in Praetoria deserves credit for reviving challenging gameplay up to level 20.) But players found ways to skip the lower levels, first by herding then with the AE that the devs provided, and now with a low-level task force that seems designed to powerlevel newbies. Nobody plays the low level game anymore. Even if they did, stamina is now inherent, inspirations are more frequent (there's even a button to dispense them, if you're a VIP) and you still have that difficulty slider.

Designing your character used to be an intriguing mini-game. You used to have to decide which powers to select, how early to get Stamina, and what travel powers and power pools you could fit into your build. No longer. Travel powers no longer need a prerequisite, and can be skipped entirely by purchasing a hoverboard or ninja run from the Paragon store. Stamina is inherent. You have so many power slots that you're forced to take power pools. 90% of all characters have Combat Jumping, because why not.

Add onto that the Incarnate abilities, which are often better than their non-incarnate equivalents. Now that every blaster can have their own status-protection bubble, why take Acrobatics? If you're a defender, why take the FF power set at all except for concept? Entire powersets have been obsoleted by incarnate abilities, leading to lack of distinct choices. There used to be skill in designing a character. That's gone, now.

Ah, but there's still the challenge of deciding what IO sets to slot for maximum performance. Or not. The IO sets with the best bonuses are known and mapped and their prices are high and stagnant. An IO loadout that works on one character pretty much works on another with only minor tweaks. And who needs maximum performance anyway? There's no challenge that demands it.

So the gameplay is lackluster, powerleveling is officially approved, and designing characters is simple enough for a chimp to master.

Challenge requires giving the players a choice that affects an outcome. In City of Heroes we are being given thousands of choices that don't affect anything, and almost no choices that do. I think that's what the original poster meant by 'gimmicks'. We are being fed tons of flashy toys to distract us from the truth that the gameplay is hollow, neglected and without challenge.

I don't think anything can be done about that. The game is too far gone, now, and the company isn't going to change its direction any time soon. And maybe CoH will survive as a lowest common denominator type of game, a newbie-friendly mashfest that's part costume sandbox and part interactive storyline with no actual 'game' at its core. I kind of hope it does survive, even in that zombified state. I'll remember it fondly when it was vibrant and exciting.

Sorry Remus but the game was NEVER 'Challenging', those things you quoted as making the game a challenge...really didn't.

1) Everybody and their mother got Stamina ANYWAY, there is no challenge in having a power pool that virtually everybody takes just so they don't blow out endurance at high levels. Oh you had to fiddle with your build, well whoopdefreakingdo, that's not a challenge, that's just unneeded logistical work. It had gotten to the stage where Stamina was a massive crutch power and it either needed to be an Inherent OR it needed to be nerfed along with all powers having their endcost cut in half.

2) Just because YOU want to run in 'super awesome hotsauce hardcore mode' doesn't mean everybody does. Sorry but you want a challenge...try soloing as a controller before you ascend to godhood like they do at later levels (ill/Rad or fire/Kin being the prime examples), even on the basic difficulty doing LEGACY CONTENT (you know, the part your harping on about being designed with balance in mind) is incredibly slow going and just down right dull.

3) Incarnate abilities add stuff at level 50, you want knockback protection while levelling, you're going to HAVE to take acrobatics or slot atleast 2 KB protection IOs. Want it while exemping below 45, acrobatics. Incarnate abilities affect purely the endgame, you still need stuff whilst bringing up your characters in order to negate weakness.

4) The game has been made more 'new player friendly', you know how much of a pain it was, as a new player, having to blow through 3 of my respecs (back when you couldn't buy Respecs either with ingame currency OR real money) in order to get a build right, it wasn't fun or challenging...at all...

Sorry Remus but I'm seriously going to have to disagree with you, the 'challenge' we had wasn't the fun kind of challenge, it was the boring kind, the kind you get sent on by corporations for 'team building exercises' which are about as fun as having your face frozen off. Infact most of it wasn't a challenge at all. Most of it was negated by looking up a build for your character on the forums!

There is no challenge in copy and pasting!

Wait, what?

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd Leveling used to be much more difficult

Slower, not more difficult.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd Inspirations were rarer

They were not. As early as Issue 4, you've been able to purchase inspirations from Arenas, and as early as Launch, you've been able to purchase inspirations from your contacts. Inspiration drops rates have not changed, and in fact we LOST the Strength of Will inspirations which, while they wouldn't wake you up from being held, provided status protection for a significantly longer period of time.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd Players would find some missions simply impossible to solo, and challenging even in groups.

Only if there was an Archvillain in them, because "back then" elite bosses didn't exist, save for Frostfire and Atta. Regular missions did not vary in mission difficulty because static spawn sizes are consistent between all enemy groups and without the gimmicks of constant ambushes and special spawns, you always fought the same number of enemies.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd I isn't that way any longer. It hasn't been for some time.

No, it isn't. It's significantly harder now that every mission expects you to fight multiple spawns at the same time regardless of your difficulty settings.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd Once a player had the ability to run in super-easy mode...

"The player" has never been able to do that. The legacy Heroic difficulty and its I6 Villainous counterparts were duplicates of the existing spawn mechanics. What the developers offered with difficulty changing was the ability to have harder missions, not to have easier ones. It wasn't until the I16 difficulty changes that we could choose our missions to spawn at -1. With the old system, all you could do was go +0x1, +0x2, +1x1, +1x2 or +2x1.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd Fighting three minions at a time is boring, but an Elite Boss is unmanageable for some characters.

There are a number of people who have historically insisted and consistently proven that no solo-startable task in the game is impossible for any character of any AT and Powerset combination, on SOs, when built and played competently. The Evil Geko, I believe, went out of his way to solo Trapdoor with a number of Defenders and Controllers.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd Before level 20 characters were always running out of endurance, with only a few unslotted powers and too many enemies to face.

This isn't even remotely true. From Launch until I18, I took Stamina a grand total of one time, and when I did it it was on a respec with a character who'd gotten to 50 without it. I insisted then and I insist now that life without Stamina is not impossible. Not now, not ever. All it took was a little forethought. That's not a "challenge" even if you consider character building to be part of the game's challenge that requires skill. You know, as opposed to grabbing someone's Mids' dump off the AT forums.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd Nobody plays the low level game anymore.

This is provably false.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd inspirations are more frequent

No, they aren't.

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and you still have that difficulty slider.

Which mostly goes up.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd You used to have to decide which powers to select, how early to get Stamina, and what travel powers and power pools you could fit into your build.

Yes, and pretty much everyone saw that as a problem. Having a single power that everyone irrespective of AT or powerset choice was better off having than not having is one of those "adorable" early game mistakes of development that may have seemed good on paper, but were tragic in practice. Like the belief that people would only use a few SOs and slot DOs and Trainings all the way up to 50.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd Ah, but there's still the challenge of deciding what IO sets to slot for maximum performance. Or not. The IO sets with the best bonuses are known and mapped and their prices are high and stagnant. An IO loadout that works on one character pretty much works on another with only minor tweaks.

Which works exactly the same way for character builds concerning powers, slots and regular enhancements, yet you pronounce those as "challenging." Remember the term "FOTM?" It existed for a reason. Remember City of Blasters? That existed for a reason, too.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd powerleveling is officially approved

Let's see... They institutued an "experience range" of 300 yards so people couldn't be powerlevelled while they stood at the station, they instituted multiple changes to team experience distribution to make it impossibel to gain level if you were too far below, and finally they institutued the SSK system which eliminated bridging entirely. They banned people over powerlevelling in the Architect, put in place tremendous restrictions to its rewards and abilities, put timers on a dozen missions and probably other things I can't remember, and from this you infer that the developers condone powerlevelling? If they did, they'd have just dropped a bunch of the old style Winter Lords on us and called it a day.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd We are being fed tons of flashy toys to distract us from the truth that the gameplay is hollow, neglected and without challenge.

Without challenge, possibly, on base difficulty. So what else is new? Hollow and neglected? Not in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd The game is too far gone, now, and the company isn't going to change its direction any time soon.

Nor should it. I didn't come to this game because I didn't have enough hardship in my life. I came to it because it allows me to punch Nazi in the face.

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd And maybe CoH will survive as a lowest common denominator type of game, a newbie-friendly mashfest that's part costume sandbox and part interactive storyline with no actual 'game' at its core. I kind of hope it does survive, even in that zombified state. I'll remember it fondly when it was vibrant and exciting.

It was never "vibrant and exciting." What you remember is a hollow illusion. Everything City of Heroes was from the onset of Day 1 was players vastly stronger than the game intended for them to be, with the developers scrambling and failing to do anything about it. Since day one, players have been breaking the game and making it beyond easy. There was City of Blasters, there was dumpster diving, there were Dreck and Wolf farms and so on and so forth. You claim the game used to have challenge when Tankers could reach 99% damage resistance and scrappers could hit 90% and when Combat Jumping gave 5% defence to everything? You claim the game was challenging when all it took to tank the Hamidon was a single controller in outer space dropping Phantom Army? You claim the game was challenging when a single Tanker could hit all of his caps, aggro 50 enemies then walk away to have lunch and return to full health?

Either your memory is full of holes, or you're looking for reasons to dis people who don't share your point of view. I half expect you to start tossing around the "noob" and "carebear" arguments.

And you know what? Since the very beginning, the reason so many people kept coming back here was because this WASN'T like all the other MMOs where you have to live in constant fear for your life and work your *** off for a stupid percentage. This was a game where you could sit down, grab a Scrapper and go kill 20 people at the same time. I've been doing this since before I1, and very little has changed in the fundamental way the game plays. About the only thing that changed was Jack left and took his "1 hero = 3 white minions" nonsense with him and his successors finally accepted that we enjoyed our easy game exactly because it WAS easy.

From time to time, I hear people reminisce about old times. You know what I hear them reminisce about the most often? How they could herd 50 wolves into a dumpster and have a Blaster nuke them all to hell. That, and Regeneration before Instant Healing was a click power.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I don't like the word gimmick in these posts. It's hard to separate out how it is being used. Some of thse posts seem to imply gimmick to mean "stuff that I do not like". It's not a clearly defined word in the English language and depends much on perception.