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It's rare that I agree with Venture, but when I do...
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Originally Posted by Venture
We had an active, fairly high number of players interested in story arcs when AE started. Maybe the shiny has worn off or maybe all the crap we've had to take has driven them off for good. Maybe not. What I do know is that public perception is that AE is only for farming, and if story arcs are ever going to have a chance to regain their place that perception has to change. The farms have to go. Not onto their own "tab"; they have to go away. Some things just don't mix. The chess club and the racquetball team can't both play in the same room. There's plenty of farmable content in the rest of the game; go use that.
Simply put, this town ain't big enough for both of us. |
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Originally Posted by Venture
False.
You don't know that. Neither does anyone else. We had an active, fairly high number of players interested in story arcs when AE started. Maybe the shiny has worn off or maybe all the crap we've had to take has driven them off for good. Maybe not. What I do know is that public perception is that AE is only for farming, and if story arcs are ever going to have a chance to regain their place that perception has to change. The farms have to go. Not onto their own "tab"; they have to go away. Some things just don't mix. The chess club and the racquetball team can't both play in the same room. There's plenty of farmable content in the rest of the game; go use that. Simply put, this town ain't big enough for both of us. |
THIS, goddammit.
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Yep! It's FINE for the devs to use endless ambushes.|
Originally Posted by plainguy
Misson Architect
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BUT NOT YOU!
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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For, like... the first week I14 was out?|
Originally Posted by Venture
We had an active, fairly high number of players interested in story arcs when AE started.
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| Simply put, this town ain't big enough for both of us. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Originally Posted by Bubbawheat
I've said it before, I'll say it again. People are still running AE for story arcs. My DC arc is not a farm and it nets me a crapton of tickets right now. These tickets come from people who are playing it for the story. And not everyone who plays it rates it, and some even rate it poorly. The big issue is how to get these people to go past the first page of arcs to try out other stuff.
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My DC / contest winner arc had barely two digits of plays in its first month+ of existence, and NONE of those plays were from random people just looking for stories -- they were all explicitly solicited through these forums, the MA Arc Finder channel, and SGmates (I know this because everyone left a comment with their global and/or I was in their group when I got the play/tickets). Note that the arc had a 5-star average, I think it might even have been 5.0.
After getting the DC, I've gotten almost 100 plays in the first week, and I'm still getting a steady stream of 3-4 plays a week (sometimes more), along with a ton of positive comments (and some weird comments, but that's neither here or there
). This means people are interested in playing story arcs, but it's simply not possible to find said story arcs through the AE interface.The arc itself hasn't changed between point A and point B. It just became more visible. Wouldn't it be awesome if all the great arcs in the system got the same treatment (and the devs hand-picking several hundred arcs is obviously not workable)?
edit: to pre-empt possible misunderstandings, I am not proposing the removal of farms or whatever. The interface and rating system needs to be improved severely. This has been mentioned (and ignored) several hundred times on these forums already...
-- Z.
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So true. It seems like every time the devs try to stamp out some type of farm, they graze the people using that farm and light up the people writing real story arcs (whether good or bad). It's like using a Street Sweeper in a mall. Sure, you might hit the person you're aiming at but you'll take down far more people you aren't even trying to hit.|
Originally Posted by macskull
I disagree, though if this were an old-fashioned high-noon showdown, one side's already winning, and it's sure as heck not yours.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
They are if you are selling XP boosters, Inf boosters, IOs, etc, for real money.
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Originally Posted by GreenFIame
Yeah but it's on Beta right now, If you ask me it's a good thing, it's the only way too stop AE Farming on bigger Server like Freedum and Virtue. Plus people keep lvling in Ae and not learning how to play this game and we really don't want more AE Noob around.
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What's Einstein's definition of insanity again?
@Remianen / @Remianen Too
Sig by RPVisions
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Yes, you now only have thousands and thousands of combinations that you can use. Those bastards have emptied your ocean by a whole thimbleful. |
Originally Posted by Giant2005
Venture I always thought you were in the Pro AE crowd...
Now your arcs get bombed if they contain self rezzers and ambushes? The options are dwindling. |
The fact you feel this thimbleful took away a large number of options speaks more to what you value than a fair assesment of the change.
Uhh...i stopped doing ambush farms when they stopped Rezing. There are ALREADY better farms the problem is the farmers just aren't that good these days. Some farms actually take skill.
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Venture, venture, venture... You make it sound like people are writing great content and it is being hidden by these evil farm arcs... and while I sort understand what your point is (sort of) The honest truth is. if more people like to play chess than raquetball and those chess players are paying the rent to keep that room open then you really need to look at that. |
Originally Posted by Venture
False.
You don't know that. Neither does anyone else. We had an active, fairly high number of players interested in story arcs when AE started. Maybe the shiny has worn off or maybe all the crap we've had to take has driven them off for good. Maybe not. What I do know is that public perception is that AE is only for farming, and if story arcs are ever going to have a chance to regain their place that perception has to change. The farms have to go. Not onto their own "tab"; they have to go away. Some things just don't mix. The chess club and the racquetball team can't both play in the same room. There's plenty of farmable content in the rest of the game; go use that. Simply put, this town ain't big enough for both of us. |
You are also right, there is plenty of other content to farm but why can't people have both? It's like Dunkin Donuts... they used to sell only Coffee and Donuts but now they sell anything they will bring in revenue, which is smart business is it not? So removing "farming" from AE as you suggested would be like Dunkin Donuts going back to just selling Coffee and Donuts which to me is not a smart move... The toothpaste is out of the tube so just use it!! O_o
It's better to save the Mystery, than surrender to the secret...
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lol, I love thise post on so many levels!! Bravo!
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Originally Posted by AresSupreme
Uhh...i stopped doing ambush farms when they stopped Rezing. There are ALREADY better farms the problem is the farmers just aren't that good these days. Some farms actually take skill.
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It's better to save the Mystery, than surrender to the secret...
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Yep! It's FINE for the devs to use endless ambushes.
BUT NOT YOU! |
I'm normally the first to criticize the devs - particularly since they usually enjoy the "do as we say, not as we do" mantra. But here is one time where I must say the phrase doesn't work for the situation.
Devs (and some AE storytellers) use waves of ambushes to tell a story. You're being attacked by a security force guarding the whatever, or you're being overwhelmed by an onslaught of baddies trying to destroy something and you have to protect it. Whatever.
I personally use ambush waves to give a sense of large-scale battle and big end-game fights that you can walk away from going "whew, I survived!"
The people this rule is being created for don't use ambushes in either of those ways. They use them specifically to double, triple, quadruple, (is septuple a word?) their xp gain. You don't hear people broadcasting "lvl 40 malta ambush tip mission farming team forming, pst for invite!"
So yes, the devs do quite a bit - and imo way too much - "do as I say, not as I do" crap in this game. But this is most definitely not one of those instances.
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Originally Posted by Nitra
So removing "farming" from AE as you suggested would be like Dunkin Donuts going back to just selling Coffee and Donuts which to me is not a smart move... The toothpaste is out of the tube so just use it!! O_o |
I would agree with this if it weren't for the inherent fact that farmers and non farmers just do not get along in this game. This thread alone shows the arrogance each side of the debate has toward the other. And where does it stop? If Dunkin Donuts keeps expanding eventually people will be coming in to get a steak and potatoes for a sit down meal at Dunkin Donuts, and the people just wanting to come in and get a quick coffee and go will be saying "hey man, what the eff?"
For whatever reason - most likely an inherent difference of opinion on how a game should be played - farmers and non-farmers just do not mix. Hell you even have non farmers who like to go in and lower non-farm AE storyarcs just to be dicks, and to help raise farms to the top of the list. You can't have two things live together peacefully when one or both sides purposefully causes trouble for no other reason than to be a troll.
I would love nothing more than for the two to live together - it is after all your money, if you want to spend it farming, fine - but when it comes to AE the two just simply do not coexist well.
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I find it funny any time I read this phrase. And not just with farms. We can go with "Badgers and PVPers." Or PVPers and PVEers. Or min/maxers and people in it for the story. Blueside and redside. |
Originally Posted by Evangel_NA
For whatever reason ... farmers and non-farmers just do not mix.
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Big clue, before ever using that sort of phrase again:
THERE IS OVERLAP. And probably a *great* deal more than you think. Someone who uses a farming character to fund their main/RP/badger. Or uses the farmer to unlock the AE story/other items faster.
Seriously.
<---- There's a little black over here, and a little white waaaay over there --------------->
In the middle? One HELL of a lot of grey where people *do both.*
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Three out of four of these are correct.| I find it funny any time I read this phrase. And not just with farms. We can go with "Badgers and PVPers." Or PVPers and PVEers. Or min/maxers and people in it for the story. Blueside and redside. |
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| THERE IS OVERLAP. And probably a *great* deal more than you think. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Hello my name is Mister Hassenpheffer and I am a Farmer.
I Prefer to run regular content and I tend to farm outside of AE. AE is wonderful, the tickets help fill my salvage racks with the buff/crafting salvage I need for crafting anything my alts desire. Salvage is the only reason I AE farm. I always felt the ambush farms were not conducive to training people on how to play their characters. There's also the matter of stability. Iv'e had my fair share of runs on these ambushes and have noticed more memory leaks, freezing, crashing to desktop and even BSOD from the sheer overload that these ambushes create, not to mention what hell it puts an older video card through to have to suddenly render hundreds of detailed costumes. I knew the ambushes would go the way of the -bAEby farms- good. It keeps the cats out of my sandbox. there's alot of farmer hate goin on and I just felt the haters should know without farmers, this game would be devoured by rmt's. Ya know, the ones you see in local chat in WW now? Yeah, those guys. thems are bad. thems are the ones you need to hate on. not the player made farmers. thems your brothers and sisters there. they are the good guys. well, at least the ones that take salvage and put in on the market for 1 inf <like me>
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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It must be so nice to be so omniscient and certain about everything.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Not in any meaningful sense.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Fixed.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Four out of four of these are correct.
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| Not in any meaningful sense. |
IMO, RMTers (and their customers) and farmers are both symptoms of the same problem: too many people want the rewards of playing this game without actually playing it. They're lazy and greedy even/especially in their spare time. So they'll pay real money to some RMT, or inf to a farm leader, who promises to give them those rewards; or they find a cheap, easy way to get the rewards without the time, effort, or risk the Developers designed and intended.
As someone who actually plays the game the way we're supposed to, I wish all of the above would just go away.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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His statement was just as unqualified as yours.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Show your work. Unless it's the work I'm fairly sure you did, which involved reaching behind you to a specific orifice to pull this out of.
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How much is a great deal of overlap? 1 is hugely greater than 0.
"There's villainy ... and then there's supervillainy. The difference is performance."
-Doc_Reverend
I use ambush farms and I'm an arc author who ran a review thread and stopped specifically due to a low quality of authorial process.
So there's a data point.
Venture is, in my opinion, wrong, and bigoted. But, then again, that's the problem with the zealots...
To quote a very interesting guy I met in New Orleans 20 years ago:
"Well... It don't make no nevermind anyhow. Leastways, not the way things is now."
You just watch... Your alleged player base that has been itching to storm the AE for the great story arcs once all those pesky "farms" are gone...
doesn't exist.
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I'd even say they aren't a 'grey' group. I have three good farming toons, although I don't farm unless I'm bored. Two of them were leveled the 'hard' way and I enjoyed the ride. My SS/Fire brute was self pled in AE.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I find it funny any time I read this phrase. And not just with farms. We can go with "Badgers and PVPers." Or PVPers and PVEers. Or min/maxers and people in it for the story. Blueside and redside.
Big clue, before ever using that sort of phrase again: THERE IS OVERLAP. And probably a *great* deal more than you think. Someone who uses a farming character to fund their main/RP/badger. Or uses the farmer to unlock the AE story/other items faster. Seriously. <---- There's a little black over here, and a little white waaaay over there ---------------> In the middle? One HELL of a lot of grey where people *do both.* |
But except in cases like TopDoc's, who made a CEBR for every server just because he wanted to (and he plays the game as well since he's on Repeat Offenders and I team with him on lowbies! Who would guess?), there's no need to have more than one or two farming toons, and two if you farm every day because you'll want more mileage from the market slots and stuff.
Funnily enough, my SS/Fire is poor now because I was a bit bothered by my 20ish human-only PB and SD/MA Tanker end usage so I bought 4 health uniques crafted at buy it NAO prices, I'm helping the market am I not? Plus I sent the rest he had (750 mil) to my SM/Elec Brute to IO her since she's close to 50. Sooo are any of these three toons I spent money on lately optimal for farming or even soloing AVs/PVP? No, just like the myriad of toons I saw people who farm way more than me play.
By the way, usually when I farm with my SS/Fire it's because I feel like killing a lot of stuff and 'relax'. Because if I wanted to make money faster than I do with him killing hordes of 54s, I can get a shelved toon and buy recipes and sell crafted IOs, no resorting to flipping or etc. The toon who actually funded my SS/Fire was a 40 rad/psi def I don't play since I left in i12 - spent one week on the market doing this (buying desirable recipes for less than 50k infl each and selling the IOs for 10 mil, then I stepped up for more expensive ones), 20 minutes at a time, in one week he made more money than my SS/Fire ever did (the 1.5 bil I threw on the brute). And as I said, I didn't flip stuff or sold for over the asking price, so why is farming frowned upon since it's less profitable (although less boring for me, not every week I feel like marketeering)? I can do more money on a level 1 whatever/whatever toon (or several since at level one you have too few market slots) than with my 50+3 1.5 bil SS/Fire in a week just using WW.
And still, when I'm not bored/sick (I get sick a lot that's why I post so much on nights and weekends since I work by day), I may be farming and I'm always watching the server channels to see if there's a TF forming so I can go have fun be it on a Posi on a DO'ed toon or a LGFT on another one, even my farming brute has done most high end tfs because I wanted to take a break from farming. So yeah... we kinda 'mix', people who say 'farmers are a different kind of player' probably had one or two bad experiences with the two farmers out of 100 who think farming is 'the only way to play', but it's no different than the occasional stuck up RP'er/PVP'er you'll find (emphasis on 'occasional', because I get along just fine with a RPing team and when I was finally trying PVP - right before i13 landed - I was getting my **** handed to me, I was in a good arena team versus another vet arena team, on a non optimal PVP build, and all I got was friendly advice and that 'I was doing well for my first time in Arena Team PvP' even though it was not my impression lol).
I'm going to speak my mind on this general topic and am anticipating the likely 1 stars incoming due to it.
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I'd argue that there's a massive difference between you as an active member of the marketing community who has access to billions yet actively keeps salvage supplied versus multiple people hitting 50 in a few hours and then competing for the same supply. I see two rather specific problems on both sides of the fence between farmers and writers.|
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
Hello my name is Mister Hassenpheffer and I am a Farmer.
I Prefer to run regular content and I tend to farm outside of AE. AE is wonderful, the tickets help fill my salvage racks with the buff/crafting salvage I need for crafting anything my alts desire. Salvage is the only reason I AE farm. I always felt the ambush farms were not conducive to training people on how to play their characters. There's also the matter of stability. Iv'e had my fair share of runs on these ambushes and have noticed more memory leaks, freezing, crashing to desktop and even BSOD from the sheer overload that these ambushes create, not to mention what hell it puts an older video card through to have to suddenly render hundreds of detailed costumes. I knew the ambushes would go the way of the -bAEby farms- good. It keeps the cats out of my sandbox. there's alot of farmer hate goin on and I just felt the haters should know without farmers, this game would be devoured by rmt's. Ya know, the ones you see in local chat in WW now? Yeah, those guys. thems are bad. thems are the ones you need to hate on. not the player made farmers. thems your brothers and sisters there. they are the good guys. well, at least the ones that take salvage and put in on the market for 1 inf <like me> |
The first is something interesting I've noticed from reading several conversations back and forth: "My anecdotal evidence is better than your anecdotal evidence!"
Farmers will comment about the number of people they see farming, the number of players who want to hit 50, and the number of people who simply don't read as a pasttime. Story writers point out people who have been turned away by the inability to find a story, varying reactions to different storylines, and people who want an alternate leveling path.
As far as my own anecdotal evidence... people will occasionally make jokes at my expense on my home server about AE. However, it's oddly flattering to be known as the go to guy for it and I get directly referenced if someone has a question about it. Responses are intriguingly varied. Some are shocked/awed/impressed by what can be done with the system, especially since some are more used to seeing just the farming side. Some are interested but confused and/or overwhelmed by some of the complexities and the arguably backwards decisions (the front page of a search engine forces you to expand the search bar...wha..?). And some start enthusiastic but burn out over time due to the difficulty of promotion. Others are frustrated with us on the forums on both sides of the argument and I can't get them to post to promote their arcs or ask questions.
Are my experiences "right" or "wrong"? I notice that general farms have more publicity since people will group more for them plus CoH as a whole makes grouping difficult for those who like stories so it turns into a solo affair. That leads into the other thing I've noticed: You never get a second chance to make a first impression...and the first impression was bad
The writer who is constantly insulted on the forums. The farmer who is constantly insulted on the forums. The player who plays an arc they feel is amateurish. The player who makes a comment on the forums and immediately has all of their arcs 1 starred multiple times. The player who hears nothing but farm spam in Atlas. The player who finds a fun sounding arc that's been corrupted or unplayable. All of it winds up causing people to be frustrated with the system right from the start, both mechanically and with the people involved. Some of this can be blamed on how we view things and some of it is simply a compound of a various number of problems the system has. One of my concerns is not knowing how to fix things, especially since a lot of it is due to perceptions which can be hard to change once set.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I find it funny any time I read this phrase. And not just with farms. We can go with "Badgers and PVPers." Or PVPers and PVEers. Or min/maxers and people in it for the story. Blueside and redside.
Big clue, before ever using that sort of phrase again: THERE IS OVERLAP. And probably a *great* deal more than you think. Someone who uses a farming character to fund their main/RP/badger. Or uses the farmer to unlock the AE story/other items faster. Seriously. <---- There's a little black over here, and a little white waaaay over there ---------------> In the middle? One HELL of a lot of grey where people *do both.* |
Oh I'm not talking about the practice of farming though, as is evident by the fact that you really didn't read my post.
It's not the act of farming that separates the farmer from the non-farmer - it's the mentality. I mean listen to yourself and your arrogant approach to just your post and the topic in general. Farming and not farming coexist beautifully and I would definitely agree that there is a lot of grey in the form of content and practice as to who "farms" and who doesn't. Hell, running two BAFs back to back is technically farming, so there is no argument there.
As I pointed out though originally, it's the mentality of the two sides - the inherent hatred for each other. You think you are better and that you know it all and blah blah blah, and on the other side the non-farmer thinks the same thing. Giving arcs low ratings on purpose and preaching down on others in a holier-than-thou post is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. You can argue until you are red in the face - and I'm sure you will because surely you are 100% correct and I should bow before your excellence - but the fact of the matter is the hardcore and even mediocre farmers of AE have a very very different mentality about the game than the hardcore and mediocre non-farmers. And that difference of opinion just does not mix.
I'd ask you to read a post for meaning before going on a rant next time, but something tells me you haven't read this far down my post and are already in reply mode...
I've said it before, I'll say it again. People are still running AE for story arcs. My DC arc is not a farm and it nets me a crapton of tickets right now. These tickets come from people who are playing it for the story. And not everyone who plays it rates it, and some even rate it poorly. The big issue is how to get these people to go past the first page of arcs to try out other stuff.