Two minds about First Ward
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-10-14 03:27 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The irony circle is complete. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You make that sound like a fact rather than a personal opinion
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Originally Posted by Dante
Once I left First Ward I was left with a feeling of what was the point of that? Theres zero reason to go to First Ward by Primal characters, none. It looks beautiful, the missions are fun but its let down by its overall plot. Now Ive run the missions, Ive got no desire to return to it again which is a real shame. Oh and yes, I did read every bit of dialogue and every clue. I had plenty of time to read them all carefully having had my backside kicked by Captain Ambush every time I dared to try and read the wall of text presented to me.
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Originally Posted by Asgardian_Blade
Annoyance: Yes, the ambushes while trying to read as have been stated... Protean, there is such a thing as too many ambushes. Please use sparingly to further the story, not just because you can.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
I'd like to note that there is an "NPC dialogue" tab in your chat, much easier than following the speech bubbles.
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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We just met him as a normal loyalist thug - we haven't met him as a Well-empowered loyalist yet |
Originally Posted by Venture
Yeah, Maelstrom...the guy whose buttocks I kick at least once a day (on characters as low as level 20) will now require over a dozen people to beat. :-/
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yeah, that's... not promising.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Yeah, Maelstrom...the guy whose buttocks I kick at least once a day (on characters as low as level 20) will now require over a dozen people to beat. :-/
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Have you ever faced a Well-empowered emo before? |
Originally Posted by Feycat
Yeah, that's... not promising.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Perhaps it will require clicking 12 simultaneous glowies to disable his "Run like a little *****" power.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Yeah, Maelstrom...the guy whose buttocks I kick at least once a day (on characters as low as level 20) will now require over a dozen people to beat. :-/
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No, we'll have to assemble some clippers to remove his fringe - that's where he gets his power from.
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Perhaps it will require clicking 12 simultaneous glowies to disable his "Run like a little *****" power.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I guess "teleporting away when your health gets low after doing absolutely nothing else" is a power of sorts.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No, we'll have to assemble some clippers to remove his fringe - that's where he gets his power from.
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He's a typical loyalist coward - maybe we'll be able to trap him this time in the TPN building and deal with him once and for all |
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
I guess "teleporting away when your health gets low after doing absolutely nothing else" is a power of sorts.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yeah, I get that, but Maelstrom has been slapped around by everyone and his kid sister for months now. No one is going to take him seriously as an Incarnate-level threat, backstory be damned.
| We just met him as a normal loyalist thug - we haven't met him as a Well-empowered loyalist yet |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I dunno it's kind of nice for all the parading around we've seen with him to actually come up to something. Posterboy for going rogue as the 'Fallen Hero' but mostly we've just seen him play lackey to the loyalists and whining about how we're 'all wrong' and 'it's better to side with Cole'.
Though come to think of it, he's pretty piss poor as the vigilante. Desdemona we at least see in the lower levels as a villainess and going through the higher levels we see her evolve to a hero. Maelstrom has always just been a dick in any content I've seen him in.
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He's a loyalist - that's just the way they are |
Originally Posted by Agent White
Maelstrom has always just been a dick in any content I've seen him in.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It's kinda sad when you're worse at your assigned role than Flambeaux.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Though come to think of it, he's pretty piss poor as the vigilante. Desdemona we at least see in the lower levels as a villainess and going through the higher levels we see her evolve to a hero. Maelstrom has always just been a dick in any content I've seen him in.
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I'd like us to have the chance to redeem him and turn him back to the right side - he's quite hot |
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
It's kinda sad when you're worse at your assigned role than Flambeaux.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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yeah but the whole point is that he's supposed to be the 'hero fallen from grace'. We're not seeing the bits where he's heroic, he's purely 'post fall' in Praetoria and Prime where we see him just playing lapdog to Cole. Desdemona is the redeemed villainess, so we see her as a bad girl (low level tip missions) see her turn a new leaf (higher level tips) and eventually turn good (Underground Trial). |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
He's a loyalist - that's just the way they are
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Maelstrom... is always a baddie. When he's first introduced he's kind of mysterious, but by the end of the Praetorian arc he's a pretty big Grade-A jerk that has no qualms about murdering for Cole. And at least in the low level tip missions you see him working with the Council to espouse the 'virtues' of everyone becoming a lick boot to Cole.
There is no point in the player presented story where we see Maelstrom as a good guy, even though he's meant to represent the Hero who falls from grace and turns villain (IE, vigilante).
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And will continue to do so, unless they write him out of all the tip missions.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Yeah, I get that, but Maelstrom has been slapped around by everyone and his kid sister for months now. No one is going to take him seriously as an Incarnate-level threat, backstory be damned.
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I should assign praise where it's due: that mission is AWESOME. I absolutely loved the way the ghosts phase in, how they speak in turn and how they move around the circle. I did exactly the same thing, turning to face them as they speak, not seeing the others phasing in around them so that once I had turned full circle, the place was full of these ghosts staring at me. It was a beautiful and awesome experience. |
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
There's a mission where you're presented with loads of apparitions who explain stuff to you. It's awesome. I loved it, rotating my camera as one by one these spirits spioke their piece. No ambushes, no other window cluttering up the place, just a nice atmospheric sequence. So they CAN do great narrative delivery when it suits them. It's a shame that the other 99% of First Ward is so poor.
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Back to the Talons, I got that about their background but it was just so rapidly explained and crammed in there at the end, they just didn't feel like a threat. They came and went so fast, I barely noticed. So, okay, I stand corrected. They were explained, they were just explained really badly. For a villain that has the potential to end the world, they held no threat, no presence and had a leader that was hugely forgettable.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Yeah I don't think they were explained very well, and in fact, they're kind of dorky.
So, they play their vengeance on oathbreakers. We even ask "ok, so who broke what oath?" and the answer gets glossed over because, it doesn't really matter, they just intend on killing everything in First Ward on principle. It's just a very "Uh.. what?" kind of answer. They're meant to be 'divine retribution' but it's just a 'kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out' approach. Which yeah doesn't make them that scary so much as just this big force of faceless badness. And Serene, as was said, isn't given enough development or background to really make us care for her as a character or a villain.
The end of First Ward is basically, this person we don't know is trying to do something bad using this group that is a pseudo apocalypse because they're just very bad tempered.
I have not finished the entire arc yet, just started working for Master Midnight. (Whack Job!)
At first I was disappointed. Another zone where villains and heroes are treated exactly the same. I would like just once to have them at least acknowledge that heroes and villains (and rogues and vigilantes) have different motivations. The Midnighters seem the perfect group to appeal to this sort of theme, but that's a rant for a different thread.
So, at first I was some what vexed, here we were and both heroes and villains (or any flavor of alignment) are all being given the exact same mission arcs. But as it worked through, I have become much more happy with the way the story is going. It makes sense in the 'logic' of first ward, and the story line is fun enough that I really don't care that both my demonic MM and my heroic tank have the same missions.
A few scattered thoughts...
I want an Officer Orb as a vanity pet, but only if it will argue with an invisible Katie Douglas.
It was very annoying that Officer Orb lost track of me any time I activated Shadowfall. None of the other NPCs in tow seemed to have the same issue.
Maybe I missed the arc in Imperial City but I thought I had done it on my Corruptor. Anyways, does anyone know if Katie treats you differently in First Ward if you did her story arc in Imperial City? Her initial greeting seemed pretty cold for someone who was responsible for saving her from the Seer Network in the first place.
I wish the sharks would attack. I also wish we could swim below the water surface. A sunken city that was really sunken could be cool, but water has always been neck deep in CoH so I don't see it changing any time soon.
I didn't think there were too many ambushes. I run 0/0 because I like to solo and work the 'rp' of my character into the story arc, and most groups don't like going that slow. I never really had too much trouble defeating bosses. Some of them are kind'a chatty.
"SARS, Bird Flue, 9/11, Anthrax in the Mail, Mad Cow Disease. Pope John Paul didn't die, he preboarded." - Christopher Titus "5th Annual End of the World Tour"
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
There's a mission where you're presented with loads of apparitions who explain stuff to you. It's awesome. I loved it, rotating my camera as one by one these spirits spioke their piece. No ambushes, no other window cluttering up the place, just a nice atmospheric sequence. So they CAN do great narrative delivery when it suits them. It's a shame that the other 99% of First Ward is so poor.
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Originally Posted by Dante
I should assign praise where it's due: that mission is AWESOME. I absolutely loved the way the ghosts phase in, how they speak in turn and how they move around the circle. I did exactly the same thing, turning to face them as they speak, not seeing the others phasing in around them so that once I had turned full circle, the place was full of these ghosts staring at me. It was a beautiful and awesome experience.
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Alas, it's not long after that the story veers into a series of reprehensible actions and moral compromises. Which, I get, is Praetoria's theme... but it makes me very disinclined to take any of my Primal heroes there, and even my "Papa Wolf" Praetorian got all of his buttons pushed in a way that would have made it impossible to finish the zone ICly. The only way I can justify it is that Vanessa had someone else do the things he absolutely would not, then presented it to him as a fait accompli, knowing he'd be incandescently furious but forced to carry the rest through in order to have any chance of salvaging things. (And yes, his very first action after the zone arc winds up would have been to rush down to the DUST HQ and yank Katie back out of there, with his bare hands if necessary. I will continue to assume that until I get an official mission to that effect.)
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Eh it's probably gonna be something like "The Maelstrom device has received a significant upgrade from Neuron, dramatically improving Maelstrom's reaction times and movement capacities - during this trial, Maelstrom has 45% Defense to all attack types, along with 80% DDR and +200% Movement/Recharge time buffs". |
Originally Posted by Venture
Yeah, I get that, but Maelstrom has been slapped around by everyone and his kid sister for months now. No one is going to take him seriously as an Incarnate-level threat, backstory be damned.
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Since Maruader and Keyes both had their own MacGuffin reasons for their "awesome" power, it would make sense. I guess.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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To be fair, that's kind of how the furies work. Betray and you will be punised. And your children too, for good measure. (ex. Orestes. Kill your mother and you'll be punished, don't avenge your father (whom your mother killed) and you'll be punished, the solution there is interesting: Invent the jury trial) |
Originally Posted by Agent White
Yeah I don't think they were explained very well, and in fact, they're kind of dorky.
So, they play their vengeance on oathbreakers. We even ask "ok, so who broke what oath?" and the answer gets glossed over because, it doesn't really matter, they just intend on killing everything in First Ward on principle. It's just a very "Uh.. what?" kind of answer. They're meant to be 'divine retribution' but it's just a 'kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out' approach. Which yeah doesn't make them that scary so much as just this big force of faceless badness. And Serene, as was said, isn't given enough development or background to really make us care for her as a character or a villain. The end of First Ward is basically, this person we don't know is trying to do something bad using this group that is a pseudo apocalypse because they're just very bad tempered. |
It has all to do with ancient greek notions of guilt and responsibility.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Right but it doesn't make for interesting narrative or an interesting antagonist force. The Talons are kind of interesting in their style with the naga-esque thing but that their whole explanation is just 'someone pissed them off, but it doesn't matter who because they just kill everyone' is pretty mediocre as far as villain groups go. It turns them to just a generic 'grr' evil and we see them for such a short time they have no real impact on anything. They come out of nowhere, we're told how dangerous and scary they are, we see some people fall to their influence, and we stop them. We could have replaced them with any magically oriented group and it really would not have changed anything about the story. They just have no effectiveness except this brief whirlwind that we take down.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
To be fair, that's kind of how the furies work. Betray and you will be punised. And your children too, for good measure. (ex. Orestes. Kill your mother and you'll be punished, don't avenge your father (whom your mother killed) and you'll be punished, the solution there is interesting: Invent the jury trial)
It has all to do with ancient greek notions of guilt and responsibility. |
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Hmmm, well, their entire point is vengenace: To punish evil-doers. It's just that there's no stop to them. |
Originally Posted by Agent White
Right but it doesn't make for interesting narrative or an interesting antagonist force. The Talons are kind of interesting in their style with the naga-esque thing but that their whole explanation is just 'someone pissed them off, but it doesn't matter who because they just kill everyone' is pretty mediocre as far as villain groups go. It turns them to just a generic 'grr' evil and we see them for such a short time they have no real impact on anything. They come out of nowhere, we're told how dangerous and scary they are, we see some people fall to their influence, and we stop them. We could have replaced them with any magically oriented group and it really would not have changed anything about the story. They just have no effectiveness except this brief whirlwind that we take down.
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First Ward has a theme of lost an forgotten things, the apparitions ae cast-off byproducts, the people of the ward are refugees, the Talons come about because of an old betrayal no one cares about anymore, except Serene, and she summons the Furies to do her vengeance.
None of the other magical groups really have that kind of motif.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Right, but it's their *only* motif, it's a single characteristic that defines the whole character group. They're a one trick pony, and it's not a very interesting trick. For all it mattered, the Talons could have been called The Scary Boogeymen or the Weeaboos of Retribution.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
Hmmm, well, their entire point is vengenace: To punish evil-doers. It's just that there's no stop to them.
First Ward has a theme of lost an forgotten things, the apparitions ae cast-off byproducts, the people of the ward are refugees, the Talons come about because of an old betrayal no one cares about anymore, except Serene, and she summons the Furies to do her vengeance. None of the other magical groups really have that kind of motif. |
There's just no investment of interest on our part for Serene or the Talons. The Talons were summoned to 'punish oathbreakers', which is so vague as to be essentially nonsense. They could have come up with any number of reasons for Serene's plan that would have given us some kind of interest in it, but it all really boils down to "She's kind of a ***** and just wants power". That's not interesting or compelling and we don't really care about her or her plan, we just stop her because it would be worse to let it go on.
Yeah, Maelstrom...the guy whose buttocks I kick at least once a day (on characters as low as level 20) will now require over a dozen people to beat. :-/
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"