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No, it doesn't. It gives 3% defense to everything, but only enhances the resistance of the power it's slotted in.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
For example the Steadfast res/def IO increases both by 3%
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As I understand it, power boost doesn't work on resistance because of something about how the code works - resists would actually be boosted by +damage, if they were flagged to be boosted at all, and it would be silly for Build Up (not to mention brute Fury) to boost resistances.
Sorry I can't provide any insight into why set bonuses favor defense over resists, though.
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I stand very corrected in a newbish embarrased way. Line of thinking got mixed up with the shield wall and the glad armor uniques.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
No, it doesn't. It gives 3% defense to everything, but only enhances the resistance of the power it's slotted in.
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I'd always assumed that the thinking went along the following lines:
Allowing anyone (even a Blaster) to build up high defence AND resistance would be too much. And if both were offered on IOs, people would find a way. (I've managed to build some very nice recharge and defence bonuses on the same character, for example, so its never either-or with IOs)
Of the two, Defence is more easily circumvented. Defence debuffs, To Hit Bonuses are very common in enemy groups, whereas unresistable Resistance debuffs are almost non-existent. (Longbow used to have them, or still do?)
So we were given the ability to build just for defence using IOs.
I'd disagree that Resistance based sets get left out in the cold, since they can build layered defence using IOs to complement their innate heals and resistance. My Fire Armor scrapper and elctric Armor tanker have had a lot of success with that approach.
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I think that is a situation where we the player needs to decide what to go after. Defence, recharge, resistance etc. You can't have it all.|
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
Allowing anyone (even a Blaster) to build up high defence AND resistance would be too much. And if both were offered on IOs, people would find a way. (I've managed to build some very nice recharge and defence bonuses on the same character, for example, so its never either-or with IOs)
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| Of the two, Defence is more easily circumvented. Defence debuffs, To Hit Bonuses are very common in enemy groups, whereas unresistable Resistance debuffs are almost non-existent. (Longbow used to have them, or still do?) |
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| I'd disagree that Resistance based sets get left out in the cold, since they can build layered defence using IOs to complement their innate heals and resistance. My Fire Armor scrapper and elctric Armor tanker have had a lot of success with that approach. |
It definitely would be nice to build some resistance on a SR scrapper.
But doing so opens the doors for Blasters building for defence and resistance, which I guess was something the developers wished to avoid. I don't know that's the case, because I dont think there ever has been initial word on it.
How do you circumvent defence failure?
Off the top of my head I can think of:
Earth Thorn Casters - take Hover
Generic -def debuffs in bullets etc - build above the soft cap to avoid immediate cascade failure. This is almost impossible without native defence powers.
To Hit buffs (eg Devouring Earth, Nemesis' vengeance) - there is no circumventing that one.
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There's still +regen and +hp that you can build for, and it can add up niceley, especially if you are already running around at 45% defense. And defense sets can usually capp EVERYTHING with IOs, so if they do that and then add resistance, it would be more unbalanced than if a resist set, with mixed levels of resists to different types, had defense to some positions/types.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
I think that is a situation where we the player needs to decide what to go after. Defence, recharge, resistance etc. You can't have it all.
Possibly. It is also easy to circumvent the circumvention. I never said they were left out in the cold. Tell me though, say as an SR scrapper, wouldn't it be nice to build for resistance the same way your FA can build for def? Why shouldnt they have the same option(and potency) of layerering defences? |
I just re read that last sentence and I think I'm not being clear there. So a resist set has typically one or two really high, easily capped types of resistance, whether its fire, energy, or s/l, etc. Everything else has moderate to low resists. If they then add in IOs, but have no natural defense, they can cap one or two damage types or a position, or come close on all of them. So everything gets pretty good, or a few things get really good.
Defense sets, on the other hand, usually have evened out defense to all their types/positions. So if you cap every position on a SR scrapper, for example, you would have all your bases covered. Then adding in resists, even moderate levels to everything, would mean that they have suddenly become much more survivable than the specialized resist sets with defense bonuses.
On top of all that, resists are reliable and constant. Defense has the good ol random number generator. That means even with capped defenses, you can be 2 shotted if you get unlucky. Resists capped? No way are you EVER getting 2 shotted by something. (one shots got coded so they are impossible sans DoT attacks, so 2 shot).
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Because of the way the game computes power boosts, if Power Boost affected resistance powers, so would Fulcrum Shift. I'm sure you can see how that would be overpowered.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Next, why does powerboost not affect resistance powers at all? If it affects defence powers, isnt it fair for it to affect resistance?
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Ummm, yes please? |
Originally Posted by Katie V
Because of the way the game computes power boosts, if Power Boost affected resistance powers, so would Fulcrum Shift. I'm sure you can see how that would be overpowered.
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I asked this question quite a while ago, nobody seem to know the exact answer. Why is defense if favor of pretty much anything in the game?
90% cap resist in trials wont keep you alive, softcap (53%) does keep you alive (unless you get hit really unlucky). The benefits of resistance faded when IO's were added to the game, resistance will be hit by debuffs, defense wont.
hey modified the damage on trials considerable (to 1 shot wonders), defense can scale, resistance cannot.
As for 'defense can be 2 shotted', i want to see a cap resist versus a cap defense in LAM trial, Psi will shread any resistance tank, but defense based will survive (majority of resistance sets have no protection at all against psi).
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It's because defense is useful to all ATs, while resistance is only useful to those with other means of survival. |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Has there ever been any official discussion with the playerbase as to why set IO bonuses favor defence over resistance? |
Since most ATs cap at 75%, and don't get much more than 30% in any option they have, it would be virtually impossible to get enough resistance to make a difference in their survival.
Defense on the other hand is universally just as useful for survival for anyone.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Send an Ice Tanker against the psi enemies, and they'll drop just as fast. Or an /EA Brute/Scrapper. Only Positional defense sets enjoy much protection against Psi attacks.|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
I asked this question quite a while ago, nobody seem to know the exact answer. Why is defense if favor of pretty much anything in the game?
90% cap resist in trials wont keep you alive, softcap (53%) does keep you alive (unless you get hit really unlucky). The benefits of resistance faded when IO's were added to the game, resistance will be hit by debuffs, defense wont. hey modified the damage on trials considerable (to 1 shot wonders), defense can scale, resistance cannot. As for 'defense can be 2 shotted', i want to see a cap resist versus a cap defense in LAM trial, Psi will shread any resistance tank, but defense based will survive (majority of resistance sets have no protection at all against psi). |
However, some Resistance-based sets get decent resistance to Psi protection, including Dark and Electric Armor.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Have you had a toon with 90% resists to everything on a trial? They don't die. Of course, to get 90%, you have to be a brute or tank, and they will probably have a heal of some sort or some form of defense with it, but nontheless, if you have enough buffs to hit 90% resist to all, you are not dying any time soon. (and 53% is not Itrial defense cap, 59% is, since they have a 64% tohit chance)|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
90% cap resist in trials wont keep you alive, softcap (53%) does keep you alive (unless you get hit really unlucky). The benefits of resistance faded when IO's were added to the game, resistance will be hit by debuffs, defense wont. |
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hey modified the damage on trials considerable (to 1 shot wonders), defense can scale, resistance cannot. |
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As for 'defense can be 2 shotted', i want to see a cap resist versus a cap defense in LAM trial, Psi will shread any resistance tank, but defense based will survive (majority of resistance sets have no protection at all against psi). |
The main resist armor tank sets are fire, elec, dark, and to an extent, invuln. Dark and elec have heals and psi resists, and won't have an issue against psi. Fire has a heal up every 15-20 seconds for half their health, and won't have much of an issue. Ice armor and energy aura, however, will rely on hoarofrost and energize alone to survive psi.
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Well until all of that -recharge which typically comes with Psi damage turns that into 60-80 seconds |
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Fire has a heal up every 15-20 seconds for half their health, and won't have much of an issue
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Psi is NASTY against Fire Armour.
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My fire/fire tank (only 41 atm) doesn't have much issues with psi. I have a winter's gift and temp protection though, so maybe that's what's mitigating the slows.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Well until all of that -recharge which typically comes with Psi damage turns that into 60-80 seconds
Psi is NASTY against Fire Armour. |
Thanks to IO's my Invuln/SS tanker sports about 32% resistance to psi damage and 30% defense to psi ^_^
Psi isn't any more threatening to her than any other "exotic" type of damage.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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My mistake, i meant positional defense based (be it IO'ed or setwise).|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Send an Ice Tanker against the psi enemies, and they'll drop just as fast. Or an /EA Brute/Scrapper. Only Positional defense sets enjoy much protection against Psi attacks.
However, some Resistance-based sets get decent resistance to Psi protection, including Dark and Electric Armor. |
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| I have no clue what you mean here. Neither defense or resists "scale" in any way. They are the same amount, but higher or lower level enemies will do more or less damage, and will have more or less accuracy bonuses. If that's wht you mean when you use "scale" then your statement is incorrect. 90% resists will negate 90% of your normal damage, just as 45% defense will prevent 90% of your normal damage against even con enemies. |
Additonal, i want to see your 15-20sec on a fire tank once you get hit with -recharge from psi.
And as for 'cap resist', i mean within their set. Additional i dont believe any resist buff give Psi resist, at least thermal and sonic dont. My granite can still die in seconds once Arachnos bring out their psi mobs.
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This reminds me. Psi is probably the easiest type to build resistance for. Defense isn't that hard either. For fun, I capped a dark armor tank to psi defense and resistance. Didn't gimp the rest of the build TOO badly. Just a lot less recharge than I would like. Other defenses were in the 20s, and had normal resists on everything else.
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
Thanks to IO's my Invuln/SS tanker sports about 32% resistance to psi damage and 30% defense to psi ^_^
Psi isn't any more threatening to her than any other "exotic" type of damage. |
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Yea there are alot of psi resist and defense bonuses to stack as well as the special psi resist IO's. I ended up quite happy with my tanker. She has enough recharge to suit my tastes and knowing I don't have any particularly vulnerability to a damage type makes me feel more powerful and I don't worry about any enemy type in particular beyond whether or not their damage is primarily s/l or not. Toxic isn't quite as easy to build for but there are a wide variety of toxic resist bonuses to get and the purple sets often have 5% toxic resist bonuses as the final if you really wanna build for that.
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
This reminds me. Psi is probably the easiest type to build resistance for. Defense isn't that hard either. For fun, I capped a dark armor tank to psi defense and resistance. Didn't gimp the rest of the build TOO badly. Just a lot less recharge than I would like. Other defenses were in the 20s, and had normal resists on everything else.
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Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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This is pretty untrue. 90% resistance resists 90% of the damage, no matter how much comes at you. That's pretty good scaling.|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Even con, thats the point: Scale in tohit versus damage. Both scale up as you face higher level mobs, defense can increase their defense to nearly unlimited (hardcap) range, no mather how high the tohit bonus is, they can scale towards it and keep it 5% floored. Resistance cannot, simple. And the bigger the gap to resist cap, the greater their damage is. |
Meanwhile, Defense actually scales with increasing level in the same way. It deflects a proportional amount of attacks based on the enemies level because they get accuracy bonuses.
A +1 enemy gets a 1.1x accuracy modifier, for instance. If an even-level enemy has a 50% chance to hit, and attacks you with a power that has standard accuracy (1), then they have a 50% end chance to hit you. If you have 45% Defense, then that gets dropped down to 5%, because it's a 5%ToHit x 1. If they're +1 to you, then they have a 5.5% chance to hit you (5% ToHit floor * 1.1). At +4, they have a 1.4 accuracy modifier, for a final ToHit of 7%.
As such, Defense scales exactly to resistance as the enemy increases in level, at least in terms of averages.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I didn't see the quote you were replying to here. It must have been posting as I was posting mine. Anyway, this is a perfect way of explaining how neither defense or resistance is "better" against higher level enemies than the other in terms of straight damage mitigation. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
This is pretty untrue. 90% resistance resists 90% of the damage, no matter how much comes at you. That's pretty good scaling.
Meanwhile, Defense actually scales with increasing level in the same way. It deflects a proportional amount of attacks based on the enemies level because they get accuracy bonuses. A +1 enemy gets a 1.1x accuracy modifier, for instance. If an even-level enemy has a 50% chance to hit, and attacks you with a power that has standard accuracy (1), then they have a 50% end chance to hit you. If you have 45% Defense, then that gets dropped down to 5%, because it's a 5%ToHit x 1. If they're +1 to you, then they have a 5.5% chance to hit you (5% ToHit floor * 1.1). At +4, they have a 1.4 accuracy modifier, for a final ToHit of 7%. As such, Defense scales exactly to resistance as the enemy increases in level, at least in terms of averages. |
Now, as far as this goes
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| And as for 'cap resist', i mean within their set. Additional i dont believe any resist buff give Psi resist, at least thermal and sonic dont. My granite can still die in seconds once Arachnos bring out their psi mobs. |
As usual Aett hit the nail on the head. This is an old arguement that gets thrown around with Arcanaville's Rule of Thumb on 2rez(90%):1def(45%) and with the tank, brute, scrapper arguements of how good is good enough for resistance for *most* content. If resistance bonuses were thrown around like defense bonuses, my guess would be we would have a much stronger base of heroes and villians and thus make balance around more difficult (one wouldnt have to worry about averages - we would have consistantly better performance). Seems like a critical, albeit subjective, balance point to me.
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AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
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Whoa, full stop. That rule is not my rule of thumb. Personally, while I understand the spirit of the rule, I've always thought it was dangerously misleading; ironically the only people who can safely use the rule are people who don't need a rule of thumb. The problem in this game is that even eliminating all other situational issues, that rule only works from zero: it works to compare *total* defense to *total* resistance from zero. It does not work as an incremental rule to compare the benefit of two powers or effects, due to the nature of stacking in this game.
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Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky
As usual Aett hit the nail on the head. This is an old arguement that gets thrown around with Arcanaville's Rule of Thumb on 2rez(90%):1def(45%) and with the tank, brute, scrapper arguements of how good is good enough for resistance for *most* content. If resistance bonuses were thrown around like defense bonuses, my guess would be we would have a much stronger base of heroes and villians and thus make balance around more difficult (one wouldnt have to worry about averages - we would have consistantly better performance). Seems like a critical, albeit subjective, balance point to me.
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There is a historical bias built into the game that since defense "doesn't always work" it can afford to be numerically stronger than resistance. And for the most part this is actually true. Defense "doesn't always work" for two reasons: the first is a colloquial way of saying defense is statistical, so its vulnerable to random bursts of damage (I'm sort of giving more credit than is due here, because in fact the early devs did think of defense as sometimes on, and sometimes off). The second is that defense debuffs are by far and away the most common debuffs in the game, and they tend to have a stronger effect than resistance debuffs do for technical mechanical reasons having to do with what resistance actually is.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Why is resistance so dangerous to game balance?
Has there ever been any official discussion with the playerbase as to why set IO bonuses favor defence over resistance? In short, there is almost no point what so ever(imo mind you.) to slot for resistance(Never you mind fa brutes, you are outliers.), but it is almost a no brainer to get at least a small purple away from the softcap. I understand it takes almost twice the amount of percentage numbers to get to the resistance cap, but wouldn't it make sense that set bonuses should then at least offer twice the amount of resistance than defence? For(an incorrect example. Please ignore underlined.) example the Steadfast res/def IO increases both by 3% Would it be unbalanced for it to offer 3% def and 6% resistance? Another example. Purple inspirations are always more powerfull percentage wise than an orange of the same teir. I don't understand it. Considering defence offers mez protection by avoiding the attack altogether, it can be argued that defence is already a superior way to go. Next, why does powerboost not affect resistance powers at all? If it affects defence powers, isnt it fair for it to affect resistance? I understand it is debatable as to whether it affecting defence is balanced or not, I am just wondering if anyone knows at least part of the reason why that decision was made. Is it because back in the day, defence was the red headed stepchild, and in order to balance defence and resistance, resistance needed to be handicapped? Please understand, I am not nerf herding defence, I am trying to figure out why resistance doesn't get the same support. Thanks folks. |
Outside of current day Super Reflexes scrappers (and tankers) that have astronomically high defense debuff resistance, it tends to be far easier to strip defense than resistance from a target, and defense will always have a disadvantage in that area most of the time.
Where this flips is in the end game, where *all* debuffs are pretty much flying around at often saturation levels. In that situation, being able to avoid *anything* is better than getting hit from everything and then resisting the damage. Its specifically in the end game that defense becomes much more preeminent than resistance. Outside of it, its much more balanced: defense avoids debuffs, but defense itself can be much more easily removed.
In fact, its specifically because the devs have always had the ace in the hole that they haven't been as bothered by giving out lots of defense, in power pools, in invention bonuses, etc. The devs wield two trivial ways to nullify high defense: defense debuffs which work on almost everyone, and tohit buffs which work on everyone. Keep in mind that the primary way to punch through resistance is to increase damage, and that doesn't just offset high resistance, it kills everyone else. The alternative is something the players often find far more "cheating" than tohit buffs: unresistable damage.
I'm not saying this is a good thing, by the way. This arms race-like situation with defense and defense debuffs and tohit buffs has been a pox on all houses. It sort of works, but its definitely not ideal.
As to powerboost, this requires a bit of explanation. The crux of the problem is that there is no such thing as "boosting resistance." Resistance is "resistance to damage" and its an aspect of the individual damage types. Lets focus on just one damage type for simplicitly: smashing. We deal smashing damage, and we have smashing resistance, but the thing that buffs both is Smashing Strength. This one thing makes your smashing damage higher, and the smashing damage you take lower if you have smashing resistances. Its the same thing.
So why can't powerboost buff your smashing resistance? Well, the only way to do that would be to buff your character's Smashing Strength, and that would also buff your Smashing damage - Power Boost would simultaneously be Build Up. In fact, *all* powers that boost "damage" are intrinsically *trying* to boost your resistances as well: they are the same effect. So to make sure that all damage buffs aren't simultaneously resistance buffs the devs at the beginning of time set all resistance powers to ignore all buffs except those slotted into them. As a result, resistance powers can't be buffed by Power Boost even if the devs wanted Power Boost to do that: the resistance powers themselves are designed to ignore that.
This doesn't affect defense because defense has nothing to do with damage. What we call "smashing defense" doesn't have anything to do with smashing damage at all: its actually something called "smashing_attack" defense, a totally different thing with a similar name. These are what we call "attack vectors" and every attack is tagged with them. To put it simply, if a power deals smashing typed damage, its obvious dealing smashing typed damage. But if a power deals smashing typed damage, that has nothing to do with what defense works on it. If, and only if, the devs have tagged the power "smashing_attack" will smashing defense work on it. If they don't, it won't.
Defense and Resistance are based on totally different mechanisms that have nothing to do with each other. But Resistance is linked to Damage, and that's why it has entanglements with how Damage works. Defense is totally unrelated to damage.
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So, to try and wildly oversimplify what Arcanaville is saying, some of the defense/resistance treatment imbalance is due to an honest-to-goodness asymmetry in how they are implemented (despite there being some mathematical symmetry in what they do in limited comparisons), and some of it is due to what the devs have done with the tools the mechanical asymmetry offered them in the defense space.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Why is resistance so dangerous to game balance?
Has there ever been any official discussion with the playerbase as to why set IO bonuses favor defence over resistance? In short, there is almost no point what so ever(imo mind you.) to slot for resistance(Never you mind fa brutes, you are outliers.), but it is almost a no brainer to get at least a small purple away from the softcap. I understand it takes almost twice the amount of percentage numbers to get to the resistance cap, but wouldn't it make sense that set bonuses should then at least offer twice the amount of resistance than defence? For(an incorrect example. Please ignore underlined.) example the Steadfast res/def IO increases both by 3% Would it be unbalanced for it to offer 3% def and 6% resistance? Another example. Purple inspirations are always more powerfull percentage wise than an orange of the same teir. I don't understand it. Considering defence offers mez protection by avoiding the attack altogether, it can be argued that defence is already a superior way to go.
Next, why does powerboost not affect resistance powers at all? If it affects defence powers, isnt it fair for it to affect resistance? I understand it is debatable as to whether it affecting defence is balanced or not, I am just wondering if anyone knows at least part of the reason why that decision was made.
Is it because back in the day, defence was the red headed stepchild, and in order to balance defence and resistance, resistance needed to be handicapped? Please understand, I am not nerf herding defence, I am trying to figure out why resistance doesn't get the same support.
Thanks folks.