Spinning Strike: wrong IO categories, methinks
By
Ardrea,
Posted on: 2011-10-05 01:46 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I really hope they fix this to take PBAoE sets, the TAoE IO sets suck for melee attacks.
Last time I ran Ramiel's incarnate arc, I recall melee being affected by the +300% range buff you receive.
Currently on Virtue:
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From the Intrepid Informer (I highlighted the relevant portion):
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So the Targeted AoE is intended? Will it take Range enhancements? Has anyone PM'd Synapse about this? Will Billy get out of the well?
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Originally Posted by Avatea
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Spinning Strike Melee (Targeted AoE), Heavy DMG (Smash), Foe Knockdown, Finisher  You execute a spinning attack that first strikes with your fist and finally your heel hitting your foe and all enemies immediately nearby. Spinning Strike deals Heavy Smashing damage and has a high chance to knockdown foes. Spinning Strike is a Finisher and sets your Combo Level to 0. It will deal additional damage and will have a greater chance to knockdown dependent upon the current Combo Level. At Combo Level 3, Spinning Strike also has a moderate chance to briefly inflict Terrorize in nearby foes. Damage: High, Recharge: Slow Designer's Comments: This power will make up the bulk of the area of effect damage for the set. It recharges fairly quickly, deals great damage, but has a smaller area of effect than other melee AoE powers. Also, unlike most melee AoE powers it is targeted instead of player based area of effect (PBAOE). Spinning Strike can knock down foes, this chance increases with additional Combo Levels. If used with Combo Level 3 it will also have a good chance to inflict terrorize, causing targets to tremble in place. . . . |
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It's pretty funny watching everyone try to dance around the fact that what they're really asking for is a huge buff to the potency of an already-great power. Just come out and say it guys, the devs can understand what you're getting at.
If they don't change it, look at it this way: it will be a perfect place to stick the scrapper archetype set once they put those up for sale.
I find it hard to believe they dont know about it. It may effect the secondary effects range like fear, etc
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
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Why should Spinning Strike take different sets than Thunder Strike?|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
It's pretty funny watching everyone try to dance around the fact that what they're really asking for is a huge buff to the potency of an already-great power. Just come out and say it guys, the devs can understand what you're getting at.
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What I want is for Spinning Strike to have access to PBAoE sets, which are good for melee characters, and not TAoE sets, which mostly suck except for Ragnarok.
I want to be able to use sets that actually have some kind of value for 6 slotting, unlike TAoE sets which give almost no value at all.
We're not dancing around anything, the devs designed a power that functions exactly like Thunder Strike from Elec Melee and then thought it would be cute to give it access to TAoE sets for no reason anyone can discern other than what is most likely a random whim.
I know, and I agree, I'd love to be able to put oblits into spinning strike. I just found it amusing that it took more than a page for anyone to point out that this would in fact be a large buff.
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I look at it the other way, forcing it to take TAoE sets is almost a nerf.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I know, and I agree, I'd love to be able to put oblits into spinning strike. I just found it amusing that it took more than a page for anyone to point out that this would in fact be a large buff.
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That seems like a really goofy way to balance a power for something the devs don't necessarily balance for (IO sets), and also seems pretty irrelevant.
I can put 3 sets of Oblits into a Warmace character, I can do the same with Elec Melee - why single out Spinning Strike to take sets that are clearly designed for ranged attacks?
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that only affects certain powers (one namely coming to mind is ko blow, which you could also slot centriole HOs into for more range outside of that mish
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Originally Posted by blueruckus
Last time I ran Ramiel's incarnate arc, I recall melee being affected by the +300% range buff you receive.
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This is why I hope they don't!|
Originally Posted by Suzumebachi
I really hope they fix this to take PBAoE sets, the TAoE IO sets suck for melee attacks.
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A lot of the requests for this change in IO sets seems to be "Targeted AOE sets suck! Make it so I can slot PBAOE sets, which give me the set bonuses I want."
That said, can the range of Spinning Strike be increased by the range increasing set IOs? If so, that doesn't sound that bad to me, even if it might not be that useful.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I'm not missing that point, I just don't care. It wasn't relevant to the two posts I was referring to and as for slotting, to me it is a case of po-tay-toe po-tah-toe.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
You're both missing the point. The fact that those sets contain ranged enhancements at all just shows that targeted AoE sets are meant for ranged powers, not melee powers.
And Spinning Strike IS a melee power, just look at its info; it's typed melee (and smashing), not ranged or AoE. |
Other than Oblit and Erad for characters who need defense I would prefer to slot posi into all my melee aoes. hehe. It has great bonuses on the individual pieces, a hefty recharge bonus, and the proc is better than almost all melee procs other than the purples (tied with erad but better than oblit, kinetic combat, touch of death or mako thanks to the damage type and TOD's lousy 15% chance to fire).
That and I'm pretty sure this will change soon enough and Im patient.
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It's not just set bonuses.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
This is why I hope they don't!
A lot of the requests for this change in IO sets seems to be "Targeted AOE sets suck! Make it so I can slot PBAOE sets, which give me the set bonuses I want." |
It's the actual enhancement values.
Take some time in mids and compare the enhancement values of Posi Blast vs. the better choices available to the PBAoE sets.
I also want it to accept PBAoE sets because then it would actually follow the rules for pretty much every Melee AoE attack in the game, including the one power that functions like Spinning Strike.
Yeah, targeted aoe sets have always had horrible numbers. There is only 1/2 of an IO dedicated to recharge in the normal sets. Oh well.
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You can't deny the PBAoE sets are better than the targeted AoE sets. However, the devs have repeatedly stated that they do not balance the game around IOs, so it's a moot point. All we're left with then, is the fact that this is a melee attack, not a ranged attack, and it should take the melee attack IO set.
Also, apparently melee attacks are once again being affected by range mods; that is almost certainly a bug.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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More to the point, it would then actually follow the devs' own rule of thumb on what sets a power will accept. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I also want it to accept PBAoE sets because then it would actually follow the rules for pretty much every Melee AoE attack in the game, including the one power that functions like Spinning Strike.
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AoE powers, the rule of thumb is if it will accept a range enhancement, it is a Targeted AoE, if it will NOT accept a range enhancement it is a PBAoE.
I suppose the question there is: Will Spinning Strike accept a generic range enhancement?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
It won't, although like I said an apparent bug is making it respond to range enhancements frankenslotted in.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Regardless of the desirability of the power accepting PBAoE IO sets, mechanically, it's a Targeted AoE power - the effect of the power is centered on the target, not the player.
This may <standard code rant applies> mean that it cannot accept PBAoE slots, since it's not a PBAoE power. I don't know, but it may not be as simple as people seem to be assuming... It's certainly not a bug, as the power is accepting the sets that match its implementation.
Synchrotron, level 50 Radiation/Radiation Defender
Fighting crime on Champion since 2004
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You are correct that it is mechanically a targetted AoE power - but its also identical to thunderstrike, which accepts PBAoE sets, so the precedent was already set for 'melee' targetted AoE's that do not benefit from range enhancements to take PBAoE sets. That is the primary reason folks are complaining (that and the fact that the TAoE sets mostly suck :-). |
Originally Posted by _Synchrotron_
Regardless of the desirability of the power accepting PBAoE IO sets, mechanically, it's a Targeted AoE power - the effect of the power is centered on the target, not the player.
This may <standard code rant applies> mean that it cannot accept PBAoE slots, since it's not a PBAoE power. I don't know, but it may not be as simple as people seem to be assuming... It's certainly not a bug, as the power is accepting the sets that match its implementation. |
However, I doubt it is going to change - I believe in the latest U-Stream cast when they where talking about Street Justice someone explicitly mentioned spinning strike being a targetted AoE attack, which means its not an accident, its not someone overlooking things - Spinning strike was meant to be different from Thunderstrike and is meant to be a TAoE attack.
If that's the case I think we should be pushing for range enhancements to work in the power - if they are going to force us to use sub-par sets, we at least ought to get the full value out of them. While powers are not balanced at the base level around IO sets, the existence of those sets and their effects should be considered when you decide what sets to let a power take - and making a power that wastes part of the enhancements allowed is bad design.
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Slot in Ragnarok then?
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
It's not just set bonuses.
It's the actual enhancement values. Take some time in mids and compare the enhancement values of Posi Blast vs. the better choices available to the PBAoE sets. I also want it to accept PBAoE sets because then it would actually follow the rules for pretty much every Melee AoE attack in the game, including the one power that functions like Spinning Strike. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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So then the devs could fix this whole thing by allowing Spinning Strike to accept range enhancements.|
Originally Posted by EricHough
You are correct that it is mechanically a targetted AoE power - but its also identical to thunderstrike, which accepts PBAoE sets, so the precedent was already set for 'melee' targetted AoE's that do not benefit from range enhancements to take PBAoE sets. That is the primary reason folks are complaining (that and the fact that the TAoE sets mostly suck :-).
However, I doubt it is going to change - I believe in the latest U-Stream cast when they where talking about Street Justice someone explicitly mentioned spinning strike being a targetted AoE attack, which means its not an accident, its not someone overlooking things - Spinning strike was meant to be different from Thunderstrike and is meant to be a TAoE attack. If that's the case I think we should be pushing for range enhancements to work in the power - if they are going to force us to use sub-par sets, we at least ought to get the full value out of them. While powers are not balanced at the base level around IO sets, the existence of those sets and their effects should be considered when you decide what sets to let a power take - and making a power that wastes part of the enhancements allowed is bad design. |
Which if enhanced to that point would give it at most a (thinking with Incarnate powers added in) it seems roughly 12ft.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Um, no. That won't change the fact that it's a melee power, regardless of how it chooses targets. The targeted AoE sets are for ranged attacks, which we established as self-evident due to the fact that most of them contain range enhancement.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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And by allowing it to take ranged enhancements, it becomes a ranged attack with a 7ft range and the ability to increase it. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
Um, no. That won't change the fact that it's a melee power, regardless of how it chooses targets. The targeted AoE sets are for ranged attacks, which we established as self-evident due to the fact that most of them contain range enhancement.
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I really don't care either way, but I also dont have any problems with it taking Targetted AOE sets. However, if it took PBAOE sets, then why keep it targetted?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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A ranged attack that happens to have the exact same range as all melee attacks? Sounds more like a melee attack to me.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
And by allowing it to take ranged enhancements, it becomes a ranged attack with a 7ft range and the ability to increase it.
I really don't care either way, but I also dont have any problems with it taking Targetted AOE sets. However, if it took PBAOE sets, then why keep it targetted? |
An you know, melee cones need a target, should they use targeted AoE sets too?
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Originally Posted by EricHough
However, I doubt it is going to change - I believe in the latest U-Stream cast when they where talking about Street Justice someone explicitly mentioned spinning strike being a targetted AoE attack, which means its not an accident, its not someone overlooking things - Spinning strike was meant to be different from Thunderstrike and is meant to be a TAoE attack.
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Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Quote:
It's not a ranged attack, its a melee attack.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
So then the devs could fix this whole thing by allowing Spinning Strike to accept range enhancements.
Which if enhanced to that point would give it at most a (thinking with Incarnate powers added in) it seems roughly 12ft. |
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I really don't care either way, but I also dont have any problems with it taking Targetted AOE sets. However, if it took PBAOE sets, then why keep it targetted?
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Personally I think they did it just to be different for the sake of it, without really adding any actual value to the set.
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Originally Posted by Eric Hough
However, I doubt it is going to change - I believe in the latest U-Stream cast when they where talking about Street Justice someone explicitly mentioned spinning strike being a targetted AoE attack, which means its not an accident, its not someone overlooking things - Spinning strike was meant to be different from Thunderstrike and is meant to be a TAoE attack.
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Thunder Strike might have actually made sense, being a lightning bolt and all - at least you could work it out conceptually.
Spinning Strike on the other hand makes no sense conceptually.
You hit someone with your fist, from up to 7 feet away, and then spin around (on one leg) and then hit him and everyone within a 6 foot radius of him with your heel (your other leg) from where you hand and heel were as opposed to everyone around where your body is (since you are spinning on the heel you left on the floor).
Does your foot explode or something? Does it fly off of your body and make a giant circle on its own divorced from your leg?
Waving away a poorly thought out concept with "just cuz" is bad, saddling said concept with IO sets that were designed with actual real ranged AoEs in mind is even sillier.
(I just want to add, that this hostility isn't directed at you. You didn't make the power. The more I thought about it, the dumber the whole power started to sound).
None. Every piece of that set will enhance something that can be enhanced about that power.
You can't enhance the range of melee powers, they are flagged to not allow it at all.
Therefore, the Damage/Range enhancement is nothing more than a half-strength Damage enhancement in melee powers, which wasn't a problem because you can't slot that enhancement in a melee power. Until now.
Simply put, no power should accept an IO set that contains an enhancement that is useless to it. (I suppose Accuracy enhancement in autohit powers would be an exception, mostly because there are very few autohit powers and Accuracy is found in every set available to any of them.)
Look at sniper sets. You can slot a ranged set in a snipe power, but you cannot slot a sniper set in a ranged power. Why? Because the sniper set contains Interrupt Reduction, which is useless in a ranged power.
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.