Are we allowed to talk about farming?
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2011-09-29 10:30 in Mission Architect
Quote:
In your opinion.
|
Originally Posted by Seldom
The devs are perfectly fine with players repetitiously going through content to attain the standard rewards for doing so.
Where things get tricky in the architect are threefold: First, the above is sometimes done to the exclusion of narrative or even creativity. (Creativity is not well used when copying from someone else's template) Templated/story-less creations published in the AE compete with creations that are in line with the design intentions for the AE, (making stories more or less in line with dev stories) so anything that could be interpreted as approval for their usage is avoided. Secondly, the devs made the architect to be a place to supply supplemental content, that is stories for players to play along to when they did not feel like doing a dev arc again. A similar/alternate path of progression. The straight up streamlined reward systems present in many cases faster progressions, whether it's to leveling or to become wealthy. The devs have often mentioned their discomfort with accelerated progressions, particularly ones that bypass their desired progression speed and bypass content. Third, the above mentality to find the most streamlined rewards has often found means to create heightened rewards through bugs/loopholes or just in ways the devs did not intend, which gave far more rewards for far less danger. These were termed 'exploits,' and are seen as a threat to the devs. The trick is that all of the above (Repitition of accepted means, use of templated/shallow AE missions, accelerated progression in the AE, and AE exploitation) are often included by different users when discussing AE "farming." As some of the activities fall into the grey (or worse) areas of mission architect usage, I don't think you'll get a flat "Farming is fine!" from the devs. |
Consider someone who keeps grabbing and abandoning radio missions to stick to getting council. At that point, it looks to me like farming. Sure, it's not very efficient farming compared to some stuff, but it's a lot more efficient than street-sweeping.
Quote:
*shrugs*|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
In your opinion.
|
Is my opinion valid, then? What I mentioned is hardly off-the-cuff. The 'alternate progression' in AE, NOT superior progression is right straight from the whole immediately post AE debacle, stated by various devs, showing they didn't want the AE to be a shortcut machine. The intention that it's for creative stories is hardly groundbreaking, and the way so-called 'farm arcs' compete with story submission can be seen over and again on these very forums, if not in the way arcs get juggled via ratings. The exploit part is also hardly new news. People who found 'exploits' and used them for progression did so by farming, and were (and often are) referred to by the community in shorthand as 'farmers' rather than 'exploiters.'
Is it fair? No. But when somebody says 'boss farm,' 'monster farm,' ,monkey farm' etc, and people complain about farmers, the link is there.
My point is simply that the terminology 'farming' in relation to the AE has the meanings/implications that make it pretty darned sticky for the devs to give approval for. What you may call farming might be running a validated AE arc...but when somebody else says 'farming' they may mean a "exploitative" loophole used repeatedly. It's then hard for Positron to come in here and say "Feel free to discuss all your farming stuff!" The devs seem to have taken the canny way around it, and use their discretion in what's allowed to be shared on a case-by-case basis.
Quote:
Not really. Given that your only source for them is yourself.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Is my opinion valid, then?
|
All I care about is whether we're allowed to talk about farming. You haven't answered my question.
Quote:
Since we have been, and still are, then I assume we can.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
All I care about is whether we're allowed to talk about farming. You haven't answered my question.
|
And I would anyway.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MrDead
It's an intentional broadening of a definition to make everything seem like a frequently frowned upon activity. Pure justification.
|
Farming isn't a frowned upon activity.
Farming EXPLOITS is a frowned upon activity.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Sure, it seems to be an accepted way of playing this game. I even tried to farm a bit myself (still stuck at 40 though) but for me, it is not as much fun as playing normally.
Though, this part of the forum is normally used for Storyarcs, I don´t see a good reason why talking about creating a good AE farm is not allowed in here. Though the different playstyles will always clash a bit.
Quote:
Oh, Hyper.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Farming isn't a frowned upon activity.
Farming EXPLOITS is a frowned upon activity. |
It's always been frowned upon by lots of people on these forums alone. Add in all the other MMO's since Meridian 59 and well. It is frequent. Very frequent. Heck, it's pretty frequent just from me personally.
Apparently I'm to stupid right now to make an awesome link with a picture and stuff but neverthelss sign the petition! [u]http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes[u]
Quote:
Yet how many stories (especially early-level ones) are simply clicked through?|
Originally Posted by Seldom
First, the above is sometimes done to the exclusion of narrative or even creativity. (Creativity is not well used when copying from someone else's template) Templated/story-less creations published in the AE compete with creations that are in line with the design intentions for the AE, (making stories more or less in line with dev stories) so anything that could be interpreted as approval for their usage is avoided.
|
Outside of someone's (wasted) time writing dialog, what's the functional difference between an arc with a story nobody actually reads, and an arc with no story?
Also, exactly how non-shallow is "Hunt 10 Skulls"?
Quote:
| Secondly, the devs made the architect to be a place to supply supplemental content, that is stories for players to play along to when they did not feel like doing a dev arc again. |
Quote:
| The devs have often mentioned their discomfort with accelerated progressions, particularly ones that bypass their desired progression speed and bypass content. |
Quote:
| Third, the above mentality to find the most streamlined rewards has often found means to create heightened rewards through bugs/loopholes or just in ways the devs did not intend, which gave far more rewards for far less danger. These were termed 'exploits,' and are seen as a threat to the devs. |
I'm sure the above statement about the devs is going to hurt SOMEONE'S feelings. But I think that the devs, if they're brutally honest with themselves, would agree with at least the basic sentiment informing my statement.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
To be fair, none of your responses have taken into account any of my points either, rather dismissed them. I'm not bothering to site everything, and admit I assume a bit of familiarity on what I'm referencing based upon your activity on these forums...I assume you are familiar with much of what I'm alluding to to. If this is an unfair assumption, I apologize.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Not really. Given that your only source for them is yourself.
All I care about is whether we're allowed to talk about farming. You haven't answered my question. |
Would devs allow discussion of farming on a theoretical level? they have no reason not to. But the situation I alluded to goes more to the trouble of distinguishing what activity is being labeled as 'farming' as that varies from the "totally okay!" to the "nobody should hear about this and an exploit fix is on the way." In short, it goes not to discussion on 'farming,' but discussion on FARMS.
....And what farms are allowed is far more difficult of a subject to pin down. It's all based on how they perform. If you make a farm that can get you from two billion inf in five minutes every run, and you post about it, the post will probably removed, and the arc will most likely be locked. If you make a farm that gives you the same amount of xp/influence as doing repeat newspaper mission, it will almost certainly not be locked. If you make an arc that gives you rewards at 2X that of a dev story arc? Nobody will say if the performance is allowed or not. You'll find out if the threads are scrubbed and if the arc is locked. It all comes down to what the devs feel is an exploit. We can't post about exploits, after all.
To go on a tangent a bit, (I will bring it back) this comes back to the way devs and players approach farms. While the devs' goals and those of the player that is farming are not diametrically opposed, they're still not best buddies. Devs like equivalency, fairness, baselines, whatever you may call it. Whenever leveling speed or performance is discussed, they talk about whether people are doing something 'too fast' or 'underperforming.' You can't say if something is doing either of those unless you have a standard of what rates are 'supposed to be.'
Players who 'farm' are usually repeating content to achieve a goal, and in many circumstances they choose what they repeat based upon whether that is the most effective content to repeat to reach their goal. To rephrase, it's simply finding the "fastest way." When their 'fastest way' breaks the devs' unspoken speed limit, the devs decide that it's an exploit, nerf the content, change the mechanics so it can't happen any more, and/or penalize the player who 'went too fast.'
Actually, I think how much can be discussed about this might relax, based upon the "MARTy" system. Up until now all the "Speed monitoring" has been manual. The television arc is overperforming? Reduce Family enemy experience. The AE all boss farms are overperforming? All boss factions give reduced rewards. It seems they've grown weary with this whack a-mole approach, and would rather install "speed monitoring cameras," to follow the speeding metaphor. The manual changes are tricky, as though they affect the 'overperformers' they also affect the players operating at the median, which means balancing is tricky. If they can automate the process, and only stop those that are 'speeding,' and let the other go unaffected, they reach their goal. Hence, "MARTy."
Basically, if there are no exploits possible in discussing farms, then all discussions of farms will almost certainly be allowed. I doubt that can be said at this point, so I doubt an unequivocal answer on the subject will be delivered.
It might not be the answer you wanted, (a yes/no from a redname) but for the reasons above holding out hope for a definitive/final answer on a grey area topic is just not very realistic.
You're allowed to talk about farms.
You're allowed to make snarky responses to posts about farms.
You're allowed to repeat the same multi-page thread full of talk about farms, snarky responses to posts about farms, and snarky responses to those snarky responses.
Farming isn't rocket science, despite some people's claims that "it's hard" and "it shows how good you are" and whatnot, so there really isn't much to be said about it that hasn't already been said. I mean, if I pretty much copied Megajoule's or Venture's arc, changed the costumes on the critters, and posted about it, I should expect a slew of snarky responses for copying someone else's work and passing it off as my own, right? Farm creators should expect the same.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
Here's the thing. There are thousands of legitimate story arcs. Depending on how you do your search, that can produce dozens of pages of results. If there were no farms at all, the average author's arc would still appear on page 15.|
Originally Posted by Twoflower
I wouldn't mind farming if AE wasn't unfortunately designed to treat all arcs equally, thus shoving story-based content out of the limelight.
|
Now we're bemoaning the way those capricious farmers one-star arcs. But if there were no farms, people who want fancy custom characters would be one-starring your Nemesis-themed arc. People who hate Carnies because they always run out of end fighting them would one-star your Carnie arc. People who want a difficult challenge would one-star your trivially easy lowbie Hellion arc. People who want dark villain themes would one-star your light-hearted romp. People playing stalkers would one-star your arc because one of the mobs has SR and always sees through their Hide.
This is no different from the rest of our existence: different genres of art have different conventions and expectations. The average romance novel reader would automatically one-star any science fiction novel, and the average science fiction reader would automatically one-star any romance novel.
We all like to think we're above average. But absent any active advertising program to promote your arc, or getting a lucky break by having the devs stumble upon it, there's no way for an average author's arc to get any notoriety and higher placement in the results.
In the best of all worlds, art and mission arcs need to be judged by how well they work for their intended audience. The AE rating system could function that way, but most people rate an arc based on how they liked it, not by how well the arc succeeded at what it was trying to do. And sometimes people really hate an arc for exactly the same reason that other people really love it (challenging arcs have this problem a lot).
So, even if there were no farms, the average author would still get no plays on their arcs. It's the same everywhere: for every writer who gets a book published or a script turned into a movie, there are a thousand more languishing in obscurity.
Quote:
Your question has patently been answered already by the thread, since we're talking about farming and the thread's still here. In fact, I'm not sure why you asked in the first place if it wasn't to stir, since there are alrerady discussions abpiut farming in plenty of threads in this forum.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Not really. Given that your only source for them is yourself.
All I care about is whether we're allowed to talk about farming. You haven't answered my question. |
To anyone else, here's my view:
Farming isn't the problem, however distasteful some people may find it. The problem is that farm arcs aren't segregated from story arcs by the system.
Segregate farm arcs from story arcs in the AE UI, and everyone would be happy.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
Quote:
Or it is conceptually based. For me, I'm playing my character's adventures. Although I love fighting Circle of Thorns, I don't like them on some of my tech or science based characters for whom magic doesn't fit in their storyline. If I actually ever ran tip missions anymore, I'd only run ones that had enemies that fit my concept, and for a couple of those concepts Council would be the major enemy.
|
Originally Posted by seebs
Consider someone who keeps grabbing and abandoning radio missions to stick to getting council. At that point, it looks to me like farming. Sure, it's not very efficient farming compared to some stuff, but it's a lot more efficient than street-sweeping.
|
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
Talking is a good thing, even talk about farming 
I'd like to see the Devs talking about farming as well. In fact I would like to see the Devs give a Dev's Choice to a farm. If a Dev came out and said, "This here mission here, is absolutely the best fire farm ever. Don't bother creating your own, just use this one." then we might see a lot less of the useless things cluttering up the AE.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
If farms did not exist, people would still use the forums to find decent peer-reviewed storyarcs. The situation would not be different at all. (Mainly because instead of tonnes of crap farms to sift through, we would instead have tonnes of crap storyarcs.) In fact I am sure there are some farmers who, having grown bored of farming, decided to check out some storyarcs in the AE. I remember a thread recently where a couple members said that were it not for farming drawing them to the AE...that they wouldn't have bothered with the storyarcs there.
Farming is driving traffic to the place your stories are located. It's a good thing.
If you want people to play your arcs then promote them heavily. Just like in the real world, you can't expect the system to do the work for you.
Quote:
Thats a highly biased view of the AE.
|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
If farms did not exist, people would still use the forums to find decent peer-reviewed storyarcs. The situation would not be different at all. (Mainly because instead of tonnes of crap farms to sift through, we would instead have tonnes of crap storyarcs.) In fact I am sure there are some farmers who, having grown bored of farming, decided to check out some storyarcs in the AE. I remember a thread recently where a couple members said that were it not for farming drawing them to the AE...that they wouldn't have bothered with the storyarcs there.
Farming is driving traffic to the place your stories are located. It's a good thing. If you want people to play your arcs then promote them heavily. Just like in the real world, you can't expect the system to do the work for you. |
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
Quote:
How's it biased? I like farms & storyarcs equally. I try to look at things objectively and not "farm hate" or "lolstory" like a lot of people do.
|
Originally Posted by Jagged
Thats a highly biased view of the AE.
|
Your question has still not been answered by someone in a position to do so officially. Assuming for the moment that it was sincere, and not rhetorical or disingenuous, I advise you to wait for an official ruling before you proceed.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Quote:
If it wasn't allowed, then by the very rules of this forum, the thread would simply have been deleted by a moderator.
|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Your question has still not been answered by someone in a position to do so officially. Assuming for the moment that it was sincere, and not rhetorical or disingenuous, I advise you to wait for an official ruling before you proceed.
|
Ambush City, Or: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Ambush - Arc #1043
Strife of the Grave - Arc #3409
Shift - Arc #529411
Quote:
Because once upon a time I did use the AE search facility to find story arcs and I came here not because I couldn't find story arcs but because I wanted to find the ones this community thought the best. If there were no farms, that is how it would be. Now, coming here seems the only reasonable way to find story arcs. |
Originally Posted by Xanatos
How's it biased?
|
Having the AE swamped with largely cookie counter farm missions is not good for anyone. Not even the farmers. And the small number of farmers that get bored and decide to run the a story arc must surely be minuscule compared to those looking for stories that have given up in frustration.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
Aww come on all...
We all know that with farming we actually mean the extreme redoing of teh same mission for an incredible amount of rewards. Most likely gained in a way that the risk involved is almost taken away.
Basically using the exploits or oversights in the game to go faster in xp or gain more inf then ever meant to be! And that includes a fire farm where you make enemies doing the damage you are good against.
Don't play dumb please.... Dont get me wrong.. I am ok with people doing this. But dont try to reshape what we all know is the thing were talking about here!
According to the fact that farming is repeating a mission several times. Yes redoing stuff can be seen as farming. But that is and will never be a problem in this game.
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
Quote:
How is this any different than running dev-created content against mobs that deal damage you're strong against (i.e. /Fire running Demons)?
|
Originally Posted by Liz Bathory
And that includes a fire farm where you make enemies doing the damage you are good against.
|
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
The devs are perfectly fine with players repetitiously going through content to attain the standard rewards for doing so.
Where things get tricky in the architect are threefold:
First, the above is sometimes done to the exclusion of narrative or even creativity. (Creativity is not well used when copying from someone else's template) Templated/story-less creations published in the AE compete with creations that are in line with the design intentions for the AE, (making stories more or less in line with dev stories) so anything that could be interpreted as approval for their usage is avoided.
Secondly, the devs made the architect to be a place to supply supplemental content, that is stories for players to play along to when they did not feel like doing a dev arc again. A similar/alternate path of progression. The straight up streamlined reward systems present in many cases faster progressions, whether it's to leveling or to become wealthy. The devs have often mentioned their discomfort with accelerated progressions, particularly ones that bypass their desired progression speed and bypass content.
Third, the above mentality to find the most streamlined rewards has often found means to create heightened rewards through bugs/loopholes or just in ways the devs did not intend, which gave far more rewards for far less danger. These were termed 'exploits,' and are seen as a threat to the devs.
The trick is that all of the above (Repitition of accepted means, use of templated/shallow AE missions, accelerated progression in the AE, and AE exploitation) are often included by different users when discussing AE "farming." As some of the activities fall into the grey (or worse) areas of mission architect usage, I don't think you'll get a flat "Farming is fine!" from the devs.