Make Twinshot a starting contact choice?


ClawsandEffect

 

Posted

I've only done the first two Twinshot arcs, so I don't know what topics the later arcs are supposed to cover, but judging from the 1st two I'm thinking it's kind of ridiculous that her missions come as late in the game as they do, especially given the training content they include. I only get Twinshot at level 5, after I've trained up 4 times, and she sends me to the trainer? I've been fighting the Vazhilok and Outcasts already at levels 9 and 10, so she gives me an introductory course on these villain groups?

Here's an idea: Make Twinshot one of two possible starting contacts in Atlas Park. Matthew Habashy would be the other one. Let her training arcs be one of the possible paths you can follow as an optional parallel to the Habashy line. Give the user a choice at the end of the tutorial saying, "If you are really, really new to Paragon City, you might want to choose Twinshot to be your heroic mentor. But if you think you're ready to hit the ground running, choose Matthew Habashy."

Again, I haven't played the later two arcs, so it might be that the mission content of those would need to be reworked somewhat so that they can take place in the new Atlas Park. But I think providing these training arcs up front in the game would a lot more valuable to new players (and a lot more fun for old players who prefer to change up their Atlas Park experience now and again).


 

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I'll agree, I'll also say to extend the level range of Matthew so that you can easily chain from Twinshot to Matthew or the other way around. That way You could do both on a character if you wanted, 1 after the other.


 

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Originally Posted by NewScrapper View Post
I've only done the first two Twinshot arcs, so I don't know what topics the later arcs are supposed to cover, but judging from the 1st two I'm thinking it's kind of ridiculous that her missions come as late in the game as they do, especially given the training content they include.
Totally agree. They have some fun aspects, I actually like the story and the character development, but the missions themselves fail as tutorials for a variety of reasons. Chief of which is that they come far too late.


This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04

 

Posted

I don't think that the arcs can be taken as is and moved down. I agree that talking to the trainer is level 1 mission, but the followup traveling to Kings Row can't be undertaken safely by a low level character. In fact that kind of requires the travel power selection at level 4, and characters who haven't taken that will be at a disadvantage, wasting quite a bit of time for this mission, and possibly dying as they try to navigate Kings Row.


 

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Originally Posted by General_CoH View Post
I don't think that the arcs can be taken as is and moved down. I agree that talking to the trainer is level 1 mission, but the followup traveling to Kings Row can't be undertaken safely by a low level character. In fact that kind of requires the travel power selection at level 4, and characters who haven't taken that will be at a disadvantage, wasting quite a bit of time for this mission, and possibly dying as they try to navigate Kings Row.
I do the early Kingsrow missions without a travel power. Although they are available at 4 I find I am not picking them up until later. Plus Twinshot doesn't make you do much in the zone. I think the risk is minimal to zero in all honesty

I would also add that not that long ago doing the zone without a travel power was your only option.


This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04

 

Posted

Good idea. It struck me as very odd that Twinshot's arc included information on how to use the trainer when you've already used the trainer at least 4 times before you started the arc.

She really should be one of the beginning contacts.


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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Sure, why not. I see no downsides to this, and it might make the single contact chain of the low-level game a bit easier to bear.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Good idea. It struck me as very odd that Twinshot's arc included information on how to use the trainer when you've already used the trainer at least 4 times before you started the arc.

She really should be one of the beginning contacts.
Even then, don't you have to talk to a trainer to get through the tutorial, anyway?

I'm not sure how people could miss this- unless they incorrectly assume that it's a once-only part of the tutorial or something they won't have to worry about in the rest of the game for some time. (Since you need to defeat enemies, in theory they should also have a pretty good understanding how targeting enemies and using powers work before they can escape the tutorial.)

(Like on-the-spot morality choices, are fighting gigantic monsters.)

That said, I hope they seriously consider this idea. Having the One true option for starting contacts didn't even go well in City of Villains, which was designed for it.

I'm starting to wish they'd make the old contacts a VIP-only option for veterans..


Still hate the visit Winscott mission- make it dropable, have it give actual exp or remove it altogether. PS- Down knows who you are.
J/ Wilde/
/ AIL - Celebrating five years!

 

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Originally Posted by joshdex View Post
I'm starting to wish they'd make the old contacts a VIP-only option for veterans..
I'd be inclined to agree, if it weren't for the fact that the old contacts sucked.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

I'm in favor of this, but from the other end. None of the gameplay concepts introduced during the level 15 to 15 arc (no, there isn't enough activity there to level your character once, barring assistance) involve activities for lv 15 or higher characters. Everything there should have been wrapped up and taught by level 10, when Montague is calling you over to the university. Thus, slifing everything DOWN in level a full category would be in everyone's best interests.

Of course, we'd need a little productive content for the 15-20 range at the same time, just like our red-side competition enjoys. (Hey, the Marshal Brass arcs offer both Entrusted With The Secret AND potentially Man/Woman In Black, both important for character development)


 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
I'd be inclined to agree, if it weren't for the fact that the old contacts sucked.
Sucked or not, I still prefer them to the new, much more involved ones. So long as it doesn't take a mountain of work, I see no reason why this shouldn't happen.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by joshdex View Post
Even then, don't you have to talk to a trainer to get through the tutorial, anyway?

I'm not sure how people could miss this- unless they incorrectly assume that it's a once-only part of the tutorial or something they won't have to worry about in the rest of the game for some time. (Since you need to defeat enemies, in theory they should also have a pretty good understanding how targeting enemies and using powers work before they can escape the tutorial.)
Unfortunately, some people don't bother reading even the little bit that there is in the new tutorial. Had someone the other night in Virtue Help asking how he got more powers. Which is one of the few things the tutorial actually covers better than the old one.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Sucked or not, I still prefer them to the new, much more involved ones. So long as it doesn't take a mountain of work, I see no reason why this shouldn't happen.
I enjoy the Twinshot missions, but not for *every* *single* *character*. So it is off to KR and Radio missions at level 5 for most of mine. That gets them the old character chain.


Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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Totally agreed and /signed


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
I'd be inclined to agree, if it weren't for the fact that the old contacts sucked.
The old contacts didn't suck any worse than the new contacts do, and at least you got variety from being able to choose from ten different initial mission paths (even if the missions probably didn't vary much from zone to zone -- I never really checked because I never rolled two characters of the same origin type that close together). With ten different initial contacts to choose from I *never* got bored with the early game on CoH, whereas on CoV it was dull city having only two starting contacts (especially since both initial Villain streams would send you up against the Snakes, and you didn't get a choice of second contacts -- haven't played the new Villain early game yet, though, so I hope that part has improved some).


 

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Originally Posted by Justice Blues View Post
Unfortunately, some people don't bother reading even the little bit that there is in the new tutorial. Had someone the other night in Virtue Help asking how he go more powers. Which is one of the few things the tutorial actually covers better than the old one.
The old tutorial finished with given the player a choice of trainers:

"Talk to Miss Liberty in Atlas Park."
"Talk to Back Alley Brawler in Galaxy City"

And then when you got to your destination, there was a 10-second delay on the screen saying, "Go visit your trainer," before you could cancel that screen. I don't see how the new tutorial *could* have improved on that.


 

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Originally Posted by Jagged View Post
I do the early Kingsrow missions without a travel power. Although they are available at 4 I find I am not picking them up until later. Plus Twinshot doesn't make you do much in the zone. I think the risk is minimal to zero in all honesty
Maybe, but I can tell you that if as a new playerI had to do that Twinshot mission at level 2 I'd get a really skewed idea about what the game was like, and probably won't want to play much. Getting introduced to a level 5-10 zone at level 2 isn't what you want to do. Far as I remember even when I was a new player at level 5 I didn't like getting around Kings Row.

I'll grant you that it's not impossible, and that we've never had travel powers at 4 before, but I think that moving the powers down to 4 was done to take away that unheroic long travel and squishiness that was the staple of the low levels.


 

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Originally Posted by General_CoH View Post
Maybe, but I can tell you that if as a new player I had to do that Twinshot mission at level 2 I'd get a really skewed idea about what the game was like, and probably won't want to play much. Getting introduced to a level 5-10 zone at level 2 isn't what you want to do. Far as I remember even when I was a new player at level 5 I didn't like getting around Kings Row.
Is there anything in the first two Twinshot that actually requires that the player go to a particular zone? I mean, I know that the arcs as the are currently written will send you to Kings Row and Steel Canyon, but is there any training content actually introduced in those arcs that could not just as easily be done in Atlas Park? All I recall is getting sent to a police station and to a hospital and maybe to the university, but the only thing it was necessary to do at any of those locations was talk to your team.


 

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Originally Posted by NewScrapper View Post
The old contacts didn't suck any worse than the new contacts do, and at least you got variety from being able to choose from ten different initial mission paths (even if the missions probably didn't vary much from zone to zone -- I never really checked because I never rolled two characters of the same origin type that close together). With ten different initial contacts to choose from I *never* got bored with the early game on CoH, whereas on CoV it was dull city having only two starting contacts (especially since both initial Villain streams would send you up against the Snakes, and you didn't get a choice of second contacts -- haven't played the new Villain early game yet, though, so I hope that part has improved some).
'Choice'?

Here are your choices, hero!

1) Go talk to some random dude.
2) Go beat up a bunch of dudes. 'Cos they bad, yo.
3) Go talk to some other random dude. Who'll then have you beat up some bad dudes.
4) Go beat up all the bad dudes on some small map...over in the red bit of the zone where any mob passing wind will knock you out cold.
5) Go talk to some dudette in a totally different zone....who will then do nothing. No, I will not give you my cellphone number to make this easy. You will run all the way and you will like it!

Yeah, that's certainly more 'choice'. So good that I think I'd choose the happy cottage on the end and my big bottle of suicide pills...


Serious face edit: Yes, admittedly ALL content in this game boils down to 'Smack up some bad dudes till they sorry, yo.' But at least it is better written, more engaging and has some neat mechanics these days, rather than what might as well be a street hunt but in an instance.


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
'Choice'?

Here are your choices, hero!

1) Go talk to some random dude.
2) Go beat up a bunch of dudes. 'Cos they bad, yo.
3) Go talk to some other random dude. Who'll then have you beat up some bad dudes.
4) Go beat up all the bad dudes on some small map...over in the red bit of the zone where any mob passing wind will knock you out cold.
5) Go talk to some dudette in a totally different zone....who will then do nothing. No, I will not give you my cellphone number to make this easy. You will run all the way and you will like it!

Yeah, that's certainly more 'choice'.

Serious faace edit: Yes, admittedly ALL content in this game boils down to 'Smack up some bad dudes till they sorry, yo.' But at least it is better written, more engaging and has some neat mechanics these days, rather than what might as well be a street hunt but in an instance.
Your tastes differ from mine, then. I find the new zone mechanics pathetic. I kill a spawn, and 30 seconds later the same spawn reappears? Oh, yeah, I'm really helping clean up this town. Now I go to my very own indoor mission...only it's not my very own, since some doofus just walked in and is now stealing my kills...which, again, respawn after 30 seconds. And now I can't beat anything up in that part of the zone anymore because my futile activities apparently "cleaned up the zone" and now there are no baddies to fight.

Better written? More engaging? Why, because what used to fit on one dialogue screen now takes five screens and requires my clicking through them all? Because now the writers are putting words in my character's mouth that he would never say, so that going through mission text is less like roleplaying and more like reading a script somebody prepared for you? I didn't care that missions were like instanced street hunts -- they gave XP bonuses to help me level, and that's all I needed.

Maybe you like the new Atlas Park, but if the game gave me a choice between the new and the old, I'd at least be splitting my toons between the two -- and probably would favor the old, as I've played the Matthew Habashy arc twice now and would be perfectly happy to never play it again my entire life. The Vazhilok arc was just *painful* to go through. The "stolen supplies" arc was probably the best of them all -- too bad I can't just get that arc from somebody without having to do the Habashy arc first. I don't care for the new warehouse maps -- why so many doors that don't lead you to anything? The beat up Arachnos on the street missions are aggravating when you're competing with other players for spawns -- no, just because teaming up is the logical thing to do in those cases doesn't mean anyone is even slightly interested in teaming with you. So, for me, the new Atlas Park is a cesspool of frustration, to the point that I wish I could skip it and pick Kings Row for my starting zone.


 

Posted

I actually managed to miss Twinshots entire starting arc 2 or 3 times because of the new sewer stuff.

/signed


Apparently I'm to stupid right now to make an awesome link with a picture and stuff but neverthelss sign the petition! [u]http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes[u]

 

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Originally Posted by NewScrapper View Post
Your tastes differ from mine, then. I find the new zone mechanics pathetic. I kill a spawn, and 30 seconds later the same spawn reappears? Oh, yeah, I'm really helping clean up this town. Now I go to my very own indoor mission...only it's not my very own, since some doofus just walked in and is now stealing my kills...which, again, respawn after 30 seconds. And now I can't beat anything up in that part of the zone anymore because my futile activities apparently "cleaned up the zone" and now there are no baddies to fight.
While I dislike the 30 sec spawner (they should never spawn enemies on top of you...) I can see why they did it for busier servers. I never had to contend for kills on Union, so I noticed it more than one might if, say, Atlas was crowded with lowbies.

And at least the zone DOES get 'cleared up', rather than ALWAYS being plagued by these gangs that I, supposedly, helped clear out.

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Better written? More engaging? Why, because what used to fit on one dialogue screen now takes five screens and requires my clicking through them all? Because now the writers are putting words in my character's mouth that he would never say, so that going through mission text is less like roleplaying and more like reading a script somebody prepared for you? I didn't care that missions were like instanced street hunts -- they gave XP bonuses to help me level, and that's all I needed.
I found that much less in Atlas. In Mercy I would fully agree with you in Graves' arc. The main arcs are less of a problem; I got to make plenty of choices that suited my villain, right down to the fact that only one out of three contacts actually made it out alive...

And no ones forcing you at gun-point to read all the dialogue. You can skip right by that, and people who actually like a bit more than 'Go here, kill bad dudes' actually get something in the lower game for once.

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Maybe you like the new Atlas Park, but if the game gave me a choice between the new and the old, I'd at least be splitting my toons between the two -- and probably would favor the old, as I've played the Matthew Habashy arc twice now and would be perfectly happy to never play it again my entire life. The Vazhilok arc was just *painful* to go through. The "stolen supplies" arc was probably the best of them all -- too bad I can't just get that arc from somebody without having to do the Habashy arc first. I don't care for the new warehouse maps -- why so many doors that don't lead you to anything? The beat up Arachnos on the street missions are aggravating when you're competing with other players for spawns -- no, just because teaming up is the logical thing to do in those cases doesn't mean anyone is even slightly interested in teaming with you. So, for me, the new Atlas Park is a cesspool of frustration, to the point that I wish I could skip it and pick Kings Row for my starting zone.
You do know that there's nothing stopping you from doing just that, right? Street-sweep by the Hollows gate where there are still mobs and the higher level ones, get to level 5, go to Kings Row. Bam, problem solved.

That's what I did for years, because the low level 'content' took longer for less fun. Now I finally have content that I can stand playing.

YMMV /opinion


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

More choice? Yes.
Twinshot? No thank you.

Twinshot is the bluside training contact. How much more training do you need before you start skipping over parts or clicking through the dialogue because you've heard it so many times.

The old five-origin contacts were awful which is why they were gotten rid of. Simple design but far too tedious, sending you all across Atlas and Galaxy for no reason other than the old philosophy of artifically lengthening the journey from 1-5. Which is why most of us wanted to skip 1-20 or we did sewer runs before it was somehow deemed necessary to turn it into a LFGtrial. The same will happen with Twinshot. Skip past and maybe go back and run it with friends (or via Ouro for the badges).

With the teleport to contact; people don't even need to make the run from Atlas to the Hollows anymore, missing out the east side and the south barely gets touched in all the new arcs. Another contact chain around the south areas wouldn't go amiss.


Redside; reactivating the old Kalinda->Mongoose and Burke->Creed chain. There was nothing inherently bad about the actual arcs themselves except the continuous repetition of Snakes. A little remoulding, perhaps expanding on Burke's Roguishness for more than two missions (nothing ever seem to come from planting those bugs at Fort Darwin). Maybe even the chance to betray Burke and sell him out to Arachnos to curry their favour OR help him stick one up them, earning their respect?


Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
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Originally Posted by NewScrapper View Post
The old tutorial finished with given the player a choice of trainers:

"Talk to Miss Liberty in Atlas Park."
"Talk to Back Alley Brawler in Galaxy City"

And then when you got to your destination, there was a 10-second delay on the screen saying, "Go visit your trainer," before you could cancel that screen. I don't see how the new tutorial *could* have improved on that.
How about, they actually have you level up and pick a new power in the tutorial? Not tell you to see a trainer (And I have seen people fresh from the old tutorial ask where Ms. Liberty (Miss Liberty is her mother.) is ), you have to do it before you can get to the final fight.


Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
----------------------
Fighting The Future Trilogy
----------------------

 

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Serious face edit: Yes, admittedly ALL content in this game boils down to 'Smack up some bad dudes till they sorry, yo.' But at least it is better written, more engaging and has some neat mechanics these days, rather than what might as well be a street hunt but in an instance.
I have to challenge you on "better written" considering that new content managed to piss me off worse than I remember the game ever getting me angry in years. As for "neat mechanics," what you see as neat I see as pointless and distracting, an obstacle keeping me from doing what I really want to do, which is beat up some dudes. That's what the game boils down because that, in and of itself, is just a fun thing to do.

Aesthetic squabbles aside, who does it hurt if I'm still able to run the game's old contacts? They may not be good, but if I chose to do them, why judge their quality for me?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.