Is not allowing free players to use tells really necessary?
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2011-09-27 19:49 in Player Questions
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Haha. Fair enough.|
Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
F2P can't use Broadcast
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Okay, s/Broadcast/Local/g
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
The thing is, so much team recruiting is done using the good old, "<Blah> team forming, pst if interested," method that F2P players will be completely excluded from joining teams that form this way (which is most of them, isn't it?).
I predict there will be a torrent of exchanges like this on every server: [Broadcast] Noobee: what is pst |
Except when forming TF nowadays, I've been specifically using the help channel so that even free folks can reply. And it's effective. I do get newbies replying (Usually with "What is a DfB?" but still at least they can talk). I also advertise in broadcast and tell folks to come to ms. liberty, for example, so folks in zone can use local to join.
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Maybe, as a security measure, they should institute a system whereby you can only play the game if you've paid a nominal monthly fee. Say about $15, that sounds fair...
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
So our only choices are to either alienate free players from the game, or else allow ourselves to be deluged by RMT spam again?
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Yeah, or the equivalent purchase in the store.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Maybe, as a security measure, they should institute a system whereby you can only play the game if you've paid a nominal monthly fee. Say about $15, that sounds fair...
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I think that's a great idea, I'm going to suggest it in a PM to Zwill! Wow, we should have been game designers, huh!
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Oh you better believe it soon as I see one of their generic costumes and goofy names I watch 'em. Soon as they start spammin then WHAMMO ignored as spammer and petition filed.
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Originally Posted by Justice Blues
I hope you are at least clicking on their names in /local and Ignoring them as spammers.
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Oh, good point!|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
Yeah, or the equivalent purchase in the store.
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What, btw, is an "equivalent purchase"? IOW, how much does an F2P customer have to spend in the Paragon Market in order to be upgraded to Premium? Surely it isn't enough to simply unlock a 50 cent beard to your costume piece list. Is it $5 (PP400)?
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
Yeah, it's actually $5 to unlock /tell and a couple of others, like /sg (supergroup)
$20 will unlock all chat channels, even the global ones. ($5+$15).
Most things in the store require that you spend $15 to bump yourself up a level to the next reward. The first one is special, just $5.
Editxxor: Also, any returning account that has a 3 month vet or better will also have all channels unlocked, and anyone that ever applied a retail code, even if they didn't subscribe, will have at least /tell and /sg unlocked, in addition to the free channels (/local, help, /team, and /friends.) Don't forget the free folks do get /friends, so you can have your own little private conversation with friends playing for free.)
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You seem to be totally misunderstanding. They're not sending tells to people they see, they're recording the names of people they see (and /searching), so they can spam them tells at any time! It doesn't matter if they get banned, they could have just created a new account and send tells from that to all the people they saw on all previous accounts. Paragon has effectively killed them off.|
Originally Posted by Morgan Reed
That was kind of my point.
If you can receive /local spam, then there is a good chance that your character can be seen. And that would open you to the /tell spam, just as much as the /local. |
You claimed having one /tell spam in a year shows that the restrictions weren't effective? Are you nuts? Back when they could spam via /tell, logging on for 5 minutes without getting a spam message was impressive! I'm not exaggerating. You seem to be completely failing to comprehend what the situation was like back then.
It's very easy to spam an entire server with a message... back before the RMTers ever came, people would actually do that on Freedom to recruit for Hami raids (when the cap was three hundred people, not 50 as it is now). You seem to think I'm talking in hypotheticals... but no, I'm talking what actually happened. It's a shame ubb.threads was so crappy all the threads from back then had to regularly be deleted (there were a massive number of threads where people were complaining)... but, why do you think the Devs suddenly started placing so much restrictions on trial accounts after them having zero restrictions other than a level cap for around half a decade? It's because the RMTers came, and they came hard.
I play on Freedom. I play on Virtue. The two most populated servers, and the two that would make the best targets. I've had zero spam tells since they blocked tells on trial accounts. I've had zero spam emails since they (finally) fixed email accounts. I've seen so few /local spams that I can count them on one hand.
The Devs succeeded in stopping 99.9999% of all spam (that number actually probably isn't too far off), and you're claiming it never happened because you weren't here.
You might as well just stop trying to argue, because the people that make the decisions were here then, they know why the trial/freem restrictions are in place: to prevent subscribers from being driven away by a flood of spam (they were losing players- it was that bad).
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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No. I am claiming restricting free accounts from /tell for the sole purpose of preventing RMTers isn't effective - for preventing RMTers.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
You claimed having one /tell spam in a year shows that the restrictions weren't effective?
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Yes, it keeps most players private messages clear. But it doesn't prevent RMTers.
Now, if free accounts are restricted from /tell to keep other players private messages section clear, then it is working as intended.
If it was done just to prevent RMters, it isn't working as intended.
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It isn't? Then why did RMTers effectively disappear from CoX?
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Originally Posted by Morgan Reed
If it was done just to prevent RMters, it isn't working as intended.
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NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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No body claims it would be 100% effective, saying so is foolish, nothing can be 100% effective. But, the tell restriction with the email restriction for all intents and purposes killed spam.|
Originally Posted by Morgan Reed
No. I am claiming restricting free accounts from /tell for the sole purpose of preventing RMTers isn't effective - for preventing RMTers.
Yes, it keeps most players private messages clear. But it doesn't prevent RMTers. Now, if free accounts are restricted from /tell to keep other players private messages section clear, then it is working as intended. If it was done just to prevent RMters, it isn't working as intended. |
I don't think you heard that, let me repeat it:
Tell and Email restrictions effectively killed off all RMT
Have you ever seen a thread complaining about spam? If you did, what was the responses? Back when tell and email were unrestricted, that topic was likely even eclipsed power customization, flash back, and side switching in popularity (likely the three most requested additions to the game). You probably don't appreciate that, again, since you weren't here
People now occasionally see RMTers spamming local.... yeah, that's nothing in comparison to your chat window being flooded by RMT spam. Having private conversations with people became frustratingly difficult. It was so bad many people quit the game. Think about that for a moment before claiming again that it didn't work.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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lol
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Originally Posted by arcanaville
so far, i haven't had any free players complain to me about it in game.
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I wasn't around when tells were spammed but i did catch the mail spam problem before it was handled. I'd have to clear out from 20 to 200 e-mail spams every time i logged in. My ignore list filled up on new characters in 2 days or less and ignoring wouldn't even dent the problem, so i have a rough idea of what things were like. I agree that some restrictions are needed sadly.
Since most spammers i've seen on other games are usually lv1 with a random name (like gskunhsh) they mainly use a character making bot and don't take the time to level up each spam sender. An idea would be to allow tells for free players after lv20 (per character only). Leveling each spambot to 20 every time they have to make a new free account because the account was banned as a spammer would be too much time and effort for them. I've seen this done on another game and it seems to work as well as the current method on this game. Free accounts can't use AE farms to level up to 20 fast. The free players that actually play the game could join the rest of the community with some work while spammers, who take the automated no work approach, would find it more effort than they want and would go elsewhere.
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I was getting this a lot on coh and aion. All this hot free nurse secks tells were getting insane. What they should do is allow us to turn off tells received from free accounts or premium players. That would massively cut it down even more if they find away around it.
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Originally Posted by KianaZero
Heck, I remember when it was getting bad enough (it was just before the lockout of tells/email) that I started getting porn spam!
And not just your typical porn, I'm meaning CHILD PORN! Or, I think it was. It was in such garbled Engrish that it was hard to understand, but it included words like '14yo' and 'you happy lot see' (or something similar). I sent a petition with the global name, what it said and immediately deleted the e-mail. And this was after I had gotten a dozen plus normal porn spam in e-mail. I never would have thought that superhero pedophilia was a big enough market to go to such lengths. |
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They actually tried this with the email restriction way back when (but level 10), and it really didn't make any impact on all. Level 20 would slow them down a bit more... but, if Freedom actually brings in new people? They probably would think it's more than worth the matter of minutes it'd take to PL a throw away account up to 20 (or 7 at once).|
Originally Posted by Beltor
An idea would be to allow tells for free players after lv20 (per character only).
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I was actually going through a thread I found from 2007, when Lighthouse made an announcement about the sudden influx of RMTers (this was before /ignorespammer was added!), and I found a post of mine from back then and I suggested that trial accounts be rate limited in how frequently they could send tells... and I think that might be an effective idea still. The rate limit should restrict how frequently they can send a tell, as well as how fast they could send a tell to another person.
The server could keep track of the last person they sent a tell to (which would have a much more relaxed rate limit- 0.5-1 second should be reasonable), along with how many 'switches' they've made recently, and the more they switch, the harder the throttle will kick it. I'd say that after sending a tell to ~5 or so people, it's not very likely it's legitimate (a freem wouldn't be in a SG or anything like that).
The weakness would be that they could just go parallel- instead of one account spamming an entire server, just log on 20, and split the load.
I would like a solution that doesn't restrict Freems, but, allowing RMTers free rein simply isn't acceptable.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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It actually works different from what you are suggesting.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
Yeah, it's actually $5 to unlock /tell and a couple of others, like /sg (supergroup)
$20 will unlock all chat channels, even the global ones. ($5+$15). Most things in the store require that you spend $15 to bump yourself up a level to the next reward. The first one is special, just $5. |
The first time you buy points, no matter what amount it is, you get a token. Period, end of story. The fact that the smallest point allotment you can buy is 400pp is why people have been conflating that with $5 (400pp costs US$5). Additionally, the 1200pp token is cumulative.
So you can buy $5 and get one token. This unlocks most chat channels.
You can buy $15 and get two tokens (first purchase and purchasing 1200pp). This unlocks the rest of the chat channels.
You can buy $5 and get a token, then buy $5 two more times and get a token (purchasing a total of 1200pp).
You can buy $100 and get 9 tokens (first purchase, and 8 tokens from purchasing 9600pp total [8000+1600 bonus pp]).
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I think it's right that F2P players can't initiate tells, but they should be able to respond to a tell from another player. This would obviously require changes to the system, but I think it would help new players get on decent teams. Spammers would be unable to harass you unless you contacted them first.
I ran into this problem the other day when I was logged in to an old trial account that was converted to a level 1 premium account (level 2 is required for tells). I was about to log out when someone asked if I'd like to run a TF. I tried to do the polite thing and let them know I was logging. But I couldn't -- I got an error message instead.
Proper CoH etiquette is to send a tell before inviting someone to a team -- most of us despise getting blind invites and categorically reject them. But if an F2P player gets a tell they can't respond, which means they're not going to get on teams with people who know what they're doing.
This is a also inconvenient for VIP players who follow good gaming etiquette. They have no way of knowing the person they just sent a tell to can't respond, so they'll assume that person is rude, not interested or afk.
This limitation also teaches new players bad etiquette -- to blindly invite others.
I completely agree that F2P players shouldn't be able to initiate a conversation. But the system should be changed to remember who sent the F2P player tells during the current system and allow tells back to those players, either with the current tell command or a new respond command.
If that's not possible, then we should be able to see who can't respond to tells in the /search window so that we can just invite them.
Oh, and the /tell and email restrictions haven't completely destroyed RMTers. Within the last month I've been in the market in Atlas on Freedom and had at least two different spammers use /local to hawk their wares.
Naturally I immediately ignored them as spammer, but they are apparently still trying to make money this way.
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But /local is A LOT easier to ignore and bypass (its range is limited, its hard to spot, and i don't even think it brings up a 'chat bubble' then /tells and emails.. |
Originally Posted by Rodion
Oh, and the /tell and email restrictions haven't completely destroyed RMTers. Within the last month I've been in the market in Atlas on Freedom and had at least two different spammers use /local to hawk their wares.
Naturally I immediately ignored them as spammer, but they are apparently still trying to make money this way. |
Any /tell you get not just shows up as bright yellow on your chat window, but it dings a noise as well, to let you know you got a tell.
emails light up red on your chat bar, and can be a bother if you actually use them to send messages back and forth between players (sort of like an extended offline tell)
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Originally Posted by Rodion
I think it's right that F2P players can't initiate tells, but they should be able to respond to a tell from another player. This would obviously require changes to the system, but I think it would help new players get on decent teams. Spammers would be unable to harass you unless you contacted them first.
I ran into this problem the other day when I was logged in to an old trial account that was converted to a level 1 premium account (level 2 is required for tells). I was about to log out when someone asked if I'd like to run a TF. I tried to do the polite thing and let them know I was logging. But I couldn't -- I got an error message instead. Proper CoH etiquette is to send a tell before inviting someone to a team -- most of us despise getting blind invites and categorically reject them. But if an F2P player gets a tell they can't respond, which means they're not going to get on teams with people who know what they're doing. This is a also inconvenient for VIP players who follow good gaming etiquette. They have no way of knowing the person they just sent a tell to can't respond, so they'll assume that person is rude, not interested or afk. This limitation also teaches new players bad etiquette -- to blindly invite others. I completely agree that F2P players shouldn't be able to initiate a conversation. But the system should be changed to remember who sent the F2P player tells during the current system and allow tells back to those players, either with the current tell command or a new respond command. If that's not possible, then we should be able to see who can't respond to tells in the /search window so that we can just invite them. |
Ya know VIP's and Prem's that have unlocked their chat channels can easily get Freebs to join their teams when recruiting by simply including the location where they are doing their recruiting.
We've been using the same technique for years forming costume contests, GM killing teams where the GM has random spawn points, Zone raids, Holiday events, AE farms, etc.
Team forming for Twinshot's story-arc next to Twinshot. Stop by or send tell for invite.
Sewer team forming at the Sewer entrance. 7 slots left.
Manticore TF forming next to Manticore in Brickstown.
Tanker Tuesday teams forming next to the IP entrance in King's Row.
BAF forming in Pocket D
Mothership raid forming in RWZ outside base entrance
Hami Raid forming . . .
If I send a tell to a freeb will I see a message that lets me know they won't be able to respond?
If I know the person can't respond to my tell I'll just send the invite.
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Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
If I send a tell to a freeb will I see a message that lets me know they won't be able to respond?
If I know the person can't respond to my tell I'll just send the invite. |
That sounds like a great solution.
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ANY purchase moves a Free account to Premium status.|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
What, btw, is an "equivalent purchase"? IOW, how much does an F2P customer have to spend in the Paragon Market in order to be upgraded to Premium? Surely it isn't enough to simply unlock a 50 cent beard to your costume piece list. Is it $5 (PP400)?
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The minimum purchase in the store, though, is $5.00 (400 PPs), since you don't directly buy things (you buy the PPs that buy things), so effectively yes, $5.00 ends up being the "cost" for upgrading to Premium status.
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Simple solution:
Let free players respond to tells, but not initiate them.
Fair compromise? At least that way when you send a free player a tell asking if they would like to join your team they can respond to your tell.
By not allowing them to initiate tells, you still block the RMTers from spamming people (seriously, who is going to send an obvious RMT account a tell so they can be spammed?), but you don't make it quite as rough on the free players.
Then the $5 will unlock the ability to initiate tells.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I wasn't asking for them to be removed.
/tell spam hasn't been eliminated due to the restrictions, reduced sure, nearly eliminated, okay. I have received one (admittedly only one) /tell spam in my game time here. Then I started using the hide from searches command.
If you want to believe it fixed everything, go right ahead. I'm not going to try and stop you.