Changes to EA

You are agreeing with me. However, I must point out that I was incorrect.

There is a caveat I'd like to apply to what you said and that is not all stealth powers are created equal. To elaborate, I would point to the concealment pool as an example. The stealth power while giving you a large degree of cover (from aggro) can only do so up to a certain distance. While a power such as invisibility can allow you complete concealment to the point where you could be standing on a mobs head and go unnoticed. I double checked my aggro radius against +2-3 mobs when energy cloak was not active and they were aggroing on from great distance, well beyond the range of even foot stomp (16 ft). The stealth component on energy cloak was reducing that radius up to an radius as small as 7 ft.

Some of these powers (Not from the conealment pool, since most clearly state they cannot be combined with other concealment type powers) can be combined with other powers such as superspeed or even a Celerity stealth IO to provide complete concealmetn as well.

Further testing of energy cloak shows that it is only a partial stealth ability and does not provide entire concealment as would invisibility (I did not believe it provided full concealment). There are some ideas about energy cloak that I was incorrect about as well, but first I'd like to address the original argument of stealth supression.

Unless the power says otherwise the stealth radius (The lowered aggro range) does not suppress. I tested this over and over by attacking a mob with energy cloak activated and then moving to a mob just outside of 12 feet (Checked by activating energy drain to see if it would hit). The other mob did not aggro while fighting the mob I orignially attacked. However, as soon as I turned off energy cloak, the second mob attacked.

Back to the misconceptions I had about energy cloak. The first would be that energy cloak does not suppress the taunt aura on entropic aura. I was wrong about this and my testing has indicated this. However, what my test does tell me is that the taunt aura on entropic aura is an short range. Shorter than the 8 foot radius that the power claims. The recharge component of the power works up to 8 ft, but the taunt and -recharge effect of the power do not. I tested this by the following method with both mobs above my level range (with 2-3 levels) and mobs far below my level range. (up to 25 levels below)

To ensure that I was within the 8 ft range I would get close to a mob and activate energy drain (Brightly colored so it was easy to see) this power would give me a rough indication of a 12 ft range. I would then move foward by half a step to one whole step foward. I would wait 2-3 seconds each step until the recharge bonus from entropic aura was active. If it did not activate I'd move again, wait, and repeat until it did. I would then turn the aura off to make sure that the bonus would clear and then reactive the power to see if the bonus came back. As long as I was within that 8 ft range it did. To verify I was in a 8 ft range at this point, I would activate haymaker (7 ft range) to see if it would fire. It never did at this point. With haymaker queued, I would turn off the entropic aura (This is explained below) and I would take one full step forward (This sometimes took two or three very minor movements to ensure I was not moving too far) and haymaker would fire. This indicated to me that I had moved from the 8ft range to 7 ft range.

After doing this over and over I was certain that my method for gauging the range was sufficent. I then tested on various mobs of different levels using this approach. When I was within 8 ft the recharge bonus was active. I noticed no indication that the -recharge component was taking effect. (Indicated by multiple green rings around the hands of the mobs) The taunt was not taking effect either since I was not being attacked. However, when I moved to the 7 ft mark without attacking the mobs and the aura and energy cloak, on higher level mobs would attack. This indicated to me that the stealth component was failing at a 7 ft range, but not much else. So I compared on lower level mobs as well. When I did the same thing with lower level mobs they attacked as well. Which indicates to me that the taunt aura is only going into effect at the melee range of 7ft and the -recharge effect is going into effect at 7 ft or less.

It did, however, make it very clear that the stealth component of energy aura is not supressing any aspect of entropic aura as I previously thought. Furthermore, there seems to be an error in the way the recharge bonus is being reported to the attributes panel. Though I haven't figured out what it is.


The summary would be the following:

- Energy cloak:
- is a partial concealment power. Will not conceal you closer than 8ft.
- 25 ft stealth component does not supress upon attacking or being attacked.


- Entropic Aura:
- Recharge component takes place at 8 ft. Reporting error to attributes panel (Unidentified)
- Taunt and -recharge components are not supressed in any way by energy cloak
- Taunt aura and -recharge component only active within 7ft or closer.

"There's villainy ... and then there's supervillainy. The difference is performance."
-Doc_Reverend

That would be due to the fact that energy cloak states in its description that it cannot be stacked with other concealment powers. I was uncertain of whether or not the stealth IO or superspeed would be included in this. Seems the stealth IO is and most likely superspeed as well.

If you read my above post (Or the summary for that matter) you'd see the energy cloak is effective up to 8 ft, anything closer than that and you'll aggro the mobs regardless of whether or not entropic aura is on.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

I've tested this over and over and over and with energy cloak alone you can get within 8 ft.

Energy cloak states that it does not stack with other concealment powers. The post above you stated he is not seeing a stacking effect with the stealth IO. Assuming this is true, I doubt that superspeed will stack either.

Fury is not notifying anything. I did not have issues with fury notification in my testing in my large post above.

If fury was doing this, currently, even low level mobs would aggro when standing next to them. They do not. My lengthy post pretty much discussed all of that.

And I can run up to a mob with just Superspeed (and its 35' of stealth) running, bounce off of them and rush through the spawn to the other side without any aggro. Mob AI doesn't react immediately, and the gauge you're using (less than Energy Drain, more than melee) isn't exactly extremely accurate - for starters, you don't know how large the visual effect for Energy Drain is compared to the power's actual radius of 12'. If you want to claim "I tested this to exactly 8 feet", get a kill-all, clear it until the last couple of mobs show up on the map, click on one of them and use the navigation pointer to measure the distance. I don't question your results as much as the conclusions you're drawing and methodology leading to them - I think you're hitting 10' and calling it 8'.

I certainly don't trust using Entropic Aura to say it's exactly 8' due to it counting you as a target (shown by the 8.5% recharge bonus instead of 5% whether you're near anything or not - not your "just jumped away" screenshot, but every single case of the power being toggled on with my level 10 KM/EA Brute plus a screenshot of someone standing at the market) and then apparently not giving any recharge bonus for others; it could be a glitch in the real numbers updating since most toggles that have stacking effects can appear twice on the same bonus due to update frequency, effect duration, and toggle activation time, but you don't see them not show up at all unless something is being suppressed (which shouldn't happen unless you're mezzed).

The Stealth IOs do stack with Energy Cloak, as does Superspeed. It's something that shows up in the stealth radius monitor, as well as the ability to stand near mobs for extended periods of time that would aggro on you if they didn't. The "incompatible" concealment powers are mutually exclusive toggles. If you don't believe me, I don't really care. I know better and have used this for years (specifically, since issue 8 on an EM/EA with Superspeed).

And if Fury was fixed, great. That was what I was hoping for when it was brought up in the thread. If not, oh well. I haven't specifically logged on my DM/EA (with a Stealth IO, for 65' of stealth radius in the monitor) and stood near things without attacking to check. Either way it would have no effect on low level mobs, because grey mobs don't attack you if they notice you regardless (only if taunted or attacked).

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

I suppose my confusion stems from the combat monitor which appeared to show stacking stealth effects from EC and Celerity. I have found power descriptions to be more frequently inaccurate than the combat monitor, but regardless.. if it doesn't, it doesn't.

"There's villainy ... and then there's supervillainy. The difference is performance."
-Doc_Reverend

Assuming you haven't decided to completely blow off what I have to say with the "I don't care" portion of your post I did come up with the following:

I more than certain that I was within 8 ft. The fact of the matter is that I could take a single movement forward (A whole character step or two to three stuttersteps) and be within range of a haymaker (7 ft). To provide some visual support, since I do not current have the time to figure out how to get a kill all mission on this character or time to do that mission I have some screen shots that can explain a bit.

This screen shot shows the distance of 8 ft (Using the arbiter as a marker). Compare that to the screen shot below it and I'm certain you can see the distances are the same. I've provided one at 10 feet below that one to show the difference between 8 ft and 10 ft. I used the edge of my monitor as a way to keep the zoom the same on each of the screen shots. Obviously I had to zoom out a little further for the 10 ft screen shot since 10 ft would not show on my screen at the previous zoom. I also noted that the targeting boxes around both the arbiter and the mob are similar distances away from the edge of the screen in all images. Using scaling, this would indicate a very similar distance on the first two images and a further distance in the latter image.

You are correct, however, that there is a difference in detection distances between minions, lts., and bosses. I cannot get within 8 ft of a lt. or boss. Especially if those mobs have some perception enchancing abilities.

I did note that my recharge bonus for stuck on in all the images. I attribute to the unidentified reporting are to the attributes panel which I indicated of in my other post. Dark was correct about that as well. My previous image of me with the bonus at the last arbiter was to prove that the effect could be fabricated. However, it is possible that his image was genuine.



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Once I have more time, I'll get the kill all and see if I can do it that way as well. (I just need to figure out what kill all I can get at 39 villain side and from what contact)

I'm certain the radius can stack.

Does the effect?

I guess Siolfir is right about that if you combine energy cloak with superspeed or celerity IO you should have complete concealment to the point you can stand on a mob and go unnoticed.

I recall doing this with stealth and superspeed and the warshade stealth ability and superspeed. Each of those state they cannot be stacked with other concealment powers.

As I stated before I had not tested it though, and could only assume based on your information. I was waiting for someone to test it after you said you couldn't "bump" into mobs with energy cloak + stealth IO.

My testing indicates that things are functioning exactly as they did at the end of Beta.

Level 50 ss/ea brute
Zone: RWZ, grey area
Powers used in testing: Entropic Aura, Energy Cloak, Sprint (for Celerity: +stealth), Super Jump (just cuz)

Test phase 1: Only powers active are Energy Cloak, Sprint, Super Jump
Initial stealth radius: 65 feet

Walk up to level 35 mobs. Bump up against them. Stand there, but do not attack. Stealth radius drops to only the 35 feet attributable to Energy Cloak.
Mob reaction: Nothing. Mobs that are -15 do not attack you unprovoked.

Test phase 2: Still standing beside those same mobs, turn on Entropic Aura
Stealth radius remains 35 feet. Mobs show green debuff rings around their arms from the aura.
Mob reaction: Mobs attack.

Feel free to try it yourself. This is completely consistent with what I've been seeing since before the issue went live. With the stealth from Energy Cloak still not suppressed (per the attribute monitor), I get attacked by things that should not aggro on me immediately upon, but not before activating Entropic Aura.

Ok, this is consistent with what I've seen. It does prove that energy cloak does not supress entropic aura's hostile effects at all, which one of my prior posts went into detail on.

It, however, doesn't test whether or not energy cloak is stacking, as expected, with the celerity stealth IO and or superspeed as you did not test on a mob that would aggro if your stealth failed to conceal you.

You should test with a mob that is capable of aggroing you on sight and see if they aggro upon you when you stand in their position.

To elaborate on the situation you presented you are being attacked, because the taunt effect and -recharge effect are affecting the mobs causing them to attack. Entropic aura is now the taunt aura for EA. Your stealth is, however, not supressed. If you ran into the normal aggro radius of a mob able to aggro on you they will not aggrro unless you reach the modified aggro radius that has been affected by your stealth.

I'm not sure what evidence you need other than the real numbers that tell me I have 30 feet from Celerity: +stealth and 35 from Energy Cloak. They're listed as independent effects.

I don't believe there's a stealth radius a brute can achieve that will keep something they're standing on top of from attacking, if the thing is aggro-capable. I'm sure that if I'm wrong, though, someone will correct me.

Right, that was the point of the demonstration.

Things that can aggro will aggro if you're close enough. The Celerity suppresses within a short range and leaves you with only the Energy Cloak, which at that range things will see through. I'm not sure of what you're trying to demonstrate with this last part.

Pretty much everything you're talking about we've disscussed.

You're stating something we've already stated. We know the radius stack. That's not what were concerned with. What we're considered with is whether or not the two effects stack to provide an invisible effect. Kind of like stacking stealth with superspeed does. With both (Stealth and superspeed) on you can stand right in the middle of a mob, despite that it is aggro capable, without causing aggro. (Assuming you are not placing any other effects (Such as taunts or debuffs) on the mobs around you)

((Had to change something here. I currently don't have a brute that has two stealth effects that are strong enough to stack together to test this. Stealth + Stealth IO is not strong enough to conceal at face to face range on at -1 mob))

If it helps the discussion remove the stealth IO from it all together. We'll just compare superspeed and any other stealth power.

This was actually pointed out in one or two other posts in the thread already.

Honest question for you, there is no malice in this question, as I'm certain it will sound that way.

But, have you read the posts in this thread or just parts of them?

We know mobs will aggro if they can aggro when you are close enough. This, however, is excluded when two stealth effects are stacked to a level that is higher than the perception of the mobs, as Siolfri pointed out. An example is the shadow cloak on a warshade with superspeed. With those abilities both on the warshade achieves and invisbility level of stealth that mobs (without some sort of perception aid) cannot see through and thus will not aggro you even face to face range.

Pretty much what's being discussed now is the ranges of entropic aura and at what ranges the effects of entropic aura take place. There is a side discussion about the effective ranges of stealth abilities. I've noted that I can get within 8 ft of mobs (specifically minions at this point) when Siolfir believes that the 8 ft I'm suggesting is actually 10 ft. I'm attempting to provide support for my conclusion which is what all the recent screen shots are about.

Though, I'm actually starting to lose interest in the entire thing.

Right, I think everyone is agrees on this.

However, I don't think anyone has pointed out whether or not the effects are providing invisbile levels of stealth where you can stand in a mob without aggroing (Assuming you have no other effects on that will cause aggro).

I use do this with shadow cloak and superspeed on my WS or stealth and superspeed on other characters. I currently have no characters that have any combination of these powers, nor had I planned to make one.

I was waiting to see if someone else tested these. I noticed you had energy cloak and superspeed. If you turn off entropic aura and use just superspeed and energy cloak, how close can you get to a aggro capable mob?

Yes, I noticed this as well, but I couldn't accurately judge whether or not what I was seeing was an actual recharge speed increase or an error report to the attributes panel. I assumed the latter, though the first would certainly be a bug.

Pretty much all dynamically scaling toggle buffs have this effect (Invin, RttC, AAO, etc). These toggles have two attributes:

BuffA (does not stack, the "first target buff")
BuffB (stacks)

When it effects one enemy, you get both buffs. When you have two or more targets, it looks like this:

BuffA x10
BuffB x10

But since BuffA doesn't stack, that drops to:

BuffA x1
BuffB x10

Now here is the trick, the buffs last slightly longer than the activation (tick) period of the toggle. During this time, you'd get following:

BuffA x20 --> x1
BuffB x20

Thus why you sometimes get spikes in the benefit from the toggle. Why was it designed this way? If they made the buff last just as long as the tick period, it would be possible for the buff to momentarily fall off. It was deemed that the benefit of a brief double stack was better than a brief moment of no buff at all.

Well, that makes sense when it's explained. When the buffs were repeating they were always in pairs.

The "don't care" part was specifically referring to the stacking stealth. I know that it works. It was never in debate for me.

For the rest of it, players can use the attribute monitor and power analyzer to check their stealth radius and mob perception radius. I think that the "radius" is offset towards the front of the mob to let facing have an effect on perception (ie, it's shorter behind them and longer ahead of them), but can't guarantee it and the specifics of the exact radius really only matter to me when trying to sneak through crowded maps, when Fury would set the mobs off rather than mob proximity.

Whether or not Fury still notifies mobs is something I'm interested in knowing and probably could look into, but I just haven't been logged in to the game in the past couple of days. Easy tests to check for this involve using other characters with unsuppressing stealth (Cold Domination, Dark Armor, Dark Miasma, Storm, Warshades) and a stealth IO to stack with it, then walk up next to - as in, bumping - a mob that would otherwise aggro on you, wait for 10 seconds, see what happens, then do the same thing with a Brute. It's what I've done in the past to check the issue in the first place (with the now-deleted EM/EA I mentioned earlier). To specifically check EA, use a Scrapper and a Brute (my EA Scrapper doesn't have Energy Cloak, so I'd go with a Sonic/Cold Corruptor). If it doesn't aggro on the non-Brute, and aggros on the Brute, then Fury is still notifying mobs. That would be the issue with not being able to approach things rather than Energy Cloak.

Edit: Also, Sarrate did a great job explaining what I was talking about before with not trusting the number of buffs listed in the display for Entropic Aura due to timing of the refreshes. The display refreshing less often like it does currently doesn't fix the issue as much as provide fewer chances to notice it.

Edit 2: Fury is still notifying mobs around you. When it notifies mobs (which will happen within 10 seconds of standing nearby) the stealth from the Stealth IO proc drops and the transparency fades - this is without Entropic Aura on and happens regardless of the mob level you approach. When within 10', you can't guarantee stacked stealth as a Brute without specifically timing an alarm for it, and then only for up to 10 seconds before Fury breaks it. Mobs can and will aggro based on relative level - if they are within level range to attack you, they do (tested with -10s and -2s because I was doing outdoor testing).

This did not happen on my Dark/Cold Corruptor using Arctic Fog and a Stealth IO, as the IO proc remained in effect no matter how long I was near the mobs. It also did not happen with my Warshade running Superspeed and Shadow Cloak, so the issue seems specific to Brutes. To ensure it was not just an "EA" thing, I also swapped to my EM/ElA who uses Superspeed and a Stealth IO for 65' of stealth. When standing next to -35s in Cap, my stealth radius dropped to 0' after roughly 8 seconds with no other input and no offensive toggles running.

Conclusion of short round of testing: Fury is still causing suppressing stealth to break by notifying nearby mobs every 10 seconds that you're present; this is treated as an attack by the stealth which then suppresses, and mobs are notified that you are present regardless of your stealth level.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

I've not only read the posts in this thread, I've been involved in discussions about these mechanics since the beta forums went Open.

But since you're so intent on being pleasant and posting enormous bandwidth-hogging screenshots, I'll just bow out and let you do your thing.