The fact that you used over-played terms like "strawman" and "ad-hominem" in one paragraph to argue against a perfectly valid point makes me not want to take you seriously. And you didn't actually answer the question: Why should "challenging" things be easy for everyone?
So you say badges should be inclusive. I have to disagree. Most of them are already plenty easy enough to get. Having a -few- that require a bit more luck, effort, and skill isn't a bad thing at all. They are, after all, nothing more than mere bragging-rights rewards. What's there to brag about if everyone can easily attain every badge? And if they are not there to brag about, why bother having them?
As for your badge ideas: I kind of wanted you to make up a whole NEW badge, not just edits of some existing ones. But okay, you don't want to have to rely on teammates to get a badge. I have to wonder, did you solo Lusca, the Malta Titan, and every other giant monster? Did you solo every single Task Force? Did you solo Hamidon? Did you solo 10 mothership raids? Have you solo'd the iTrials in pursuit of your badges? Or did you RELY ON TEAMMATES? The master badges are no different, they're just a bit more opaque about it.
And along that line of thinking? I'd like to see special versions of existing badges for soloing team content! That's a bunch more badges I'd probably never get, but that's okay because I'm not Ash Ketchum.
-STEELE =)
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Did I say that they should be easy for everyone? No. I said they should be able to be achieved by everyone. This is different than how you want to portray things though. Bad requirements are bad requirements. A badge that awards for 3 minutes being in FBZ is just as bad as Loves a Challenge. A badge for being logged off for 21 days is just as bad as Avoids the Green Stuff.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Why should "challenging" things be easy for everyone?
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
So you say badges should be inclusive. I have to disagree.
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Having a -few- that require a bit more luck, effort, and skill isn't a bad thing at all.
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
And if they are not there to brag about, why bother having them?
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
I have to wonder, did you solo Lusca, the Malta Titan, and every other giant monster? Did you solo every single Task Force?
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Did you solo Hamidon?
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Did you solo 10 mothership raids?
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Have you solo'd the iTrials in pursuit of your badges? Or did you RELY ON TEAMMATES?
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
The master badges are no different, they're just a bit more opaque about it.
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Au contraire: you can FAIL the TF or encounter because your team does not have what it takes to complete it, and therefore not get the completion badge! Used to happen quite a bit when a new TF came out: people would be unprepared for what awaited them, and they couldn't get past a certain part. Therefore, NO BADGE!|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
In each of those cases one or two players screwing up does not prevent others from getting the badge.
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| There is no badge for defeating Hamidon. |
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| The master badges are the only badges that actively penalize you for other player's actions. |
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Every server's culture seems to be different in often inexplicable ways. And Triumph has always seemed to do things in particularly unique ways: what works elsewhere has often been found to not work there, for reasons I really can't fully explain.|
Originally Posted by Amygdala
What I am trying to show is that although you may experience these frustrations on Triumph, there are other servers who are managing to get PuG style groups to complete these badges and are not using anything other than in game communications and occasionally the forums. These servers are not necessarily Virtue or Freedom. The examples I gave were based on my home server, Champion.
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It goes back quite a long ways. When the rule everywhere else was "do not spawn any pets for any reason" in the early Hamidon raids, Triuimph was perfecting PA tanking. That's just the way the server rolls. Numbers are part of it, but its not the only factor that affects what seems to work and not work on the different servers.
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I didn't like doing it, actually, and I hesitated to mention it at all, but fundamentally the problem that Keyes presents - that the devs present through Keyes - at the end is this: |
Originally Posted by Amygdala
And no, practical solutions does not necessarily mean telling people to stand in the hospital.
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Badge 1: you need enough firepower to defeat Antimatter, and you need to avoid getting hit by Obliteration.
Badge 2: you need enough firepower to defeat Antimatter, and you need to prevent anyone from dying.
The obvious solution to #1 is to find the minimum number of player necessary to bring him down, and assemble that number through the players with the most experience and best success rate in avoiding Obliteration patches. Its practical in the sense that it is the *optimal* solution. Every person you add beyond that number increases the probability of failure, even if you can get it to work.
The obvious solution to #2 is to use the same solution for #1 with the addition of dedicated healers.
I don't like the fact that those two solutions are the obvious solution to resolve badge run failures, but they are.
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I always felt that maxing league size and having everyone on the field was better for MoKeyes. Added bodies increases the damage output, defeating AM faster, and decreasing the number of times he would have to use Obliteration and Disintegration. Besides which, I'd rather they rip through the first phases so they're not mentally worn down for final phase.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Every person you add beyond that number increases the probability of failure, even if you can get it to work.
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Same thing with MoUnderground. Initially, the recommendation was for meleers to sit out while a smaller ranged-only unit cautiously worked their way down the bomb corridor. This is akin to sitting out a team in a hospital (in MoKeyes) as they are not actively contributing to the success of the badge or trial at that point in time. We've had our best success using every body on all 3 teams mow down the bomb hall. Everyone shares the big "Win" feeling and no one feels like a gimpy tag-along.
If anyone has yet to badge MoUT and is curious about a method for the Preservation Specialist badge, try running the 3 teams seperate but coordinated. Move ranged damage dealers to Team 3. Evenly distribute your melee on Team 1 and 2. Assemble in the small nook opposite the bombs. On go, all teams will move forward. Team 1 targets through their lead only on bombs on the left side of the hall... hugging that side of the hall. Team 2 targets through their team lead on the right side of the hall... hugging that side. Team 3 targets through their team lead who keeps a sharp eye between the left and right side. Their job is to help whichever side may be a bit slower than the other. There's no stop and go action, it's just a steamroll down to the very last bomb. No one should use slow animation attacks, just high damage quick shots. If your team (with the help of Team 3) is fast enough, you really only get one shot off per bomb. This method includes us using Desdemona rather than have her handler wait off to the side.
^ clarification: this is for that tight little bomb hall. We have everyone use stop and go, league leader initiated attacks on the other bombs.
Wow...this discussion got a little off the topic..but thats ok 
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I have to agree with Snowglobe in that, in my estimation of what he is saying, that a team/league should not be penalized due to the action or inaction of just ONE person.
But I totally get the argument of that is what team strategy is for too.
It's going to have to be an agree to disagree thing I suppose.
Speaking about the whole Keyes thing, I have found a minimum size league works best. A full league is good, but a smaller league gives you a more "controlled burn" scenario, IMO.
Getting back on topic...the badge for a team sucess that I am most proud of is the MoKeyes, more specifically the Avoids badge. Singularly the badge I am most proud of is probably Disruptor...thats a hard one for a Stone brute IMO...
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I've also found this to be true, with pretty much all the Trials. The focus and coordination you can achieve with a smaller League more than offsets the brute force and firepower attained from a larger one in my experience.
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Originally Posted by Kotchie
Speaking about the whole Keyes thing, I have found a minimum size league works best. A full league is good, but a smaller league gives you a more "controlled burn" scenario, IMO.
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StainedGlassScarlet - L50 Spines/Inv Scrapper | Badges: 1,396
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i agree with the fact that the lambda badge designs were really bad
it made more sense originally when they were bugged and you would get all 3 by using no temps at all, making it so you have to use no temps in 3 different variations is just idiotic, do more work, get more stuff, not do more work and get the same as doing half the work in 2 other instances
This happened to me in a Keyes run the other day:
1. Time frozen by Antimatter
2. Hit by disintegration as the time freeze occurred, so now I am disintegrating while frozen
3. In addition to 1 and 2, me and a few others were in the bullseye of the oblit. beam.
Thanks to that triple whammy we failed the no death criteria for the Challenge badge and of course failed the Avoid badge too.
So should be Keyes be tweaked so that as Antimatter starts his regen cycle that he cannot cast disintegration and the oblit beam doesn't fire until he is done regenerating?
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this is what it should have been from the beginning, and i think even Arcanaville suggested that it be changed to something like that
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Originally Posted by Nericus
So should be Keyes be tweaked so that as Antimatter starts his regen cycle that he cannot cast disintegration and the oblit beam doesn't fire until he is done regenerating? |
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So these are the changes I'm thinking of for Keyes:|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
this is what it should have been from the beginning, and i think even Arcanaville suggested that it be changed to something like that
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1. When Antimatter starts his regen cycle; neither disintegration NOR the obliteration beam will fire due to the time freeze and they cannot fire until he is finished regenerating or his regen is interrupted.
2. Loves a Challenge should be stripped of the no death clause, period. Wouldn't it be challenging enough to not smash the terminals and let Antimatter fully regenerate without the no death clause? Also didn't the devs state sometime ago that there would be no more "no death" clause badges?
3. Instead of idea #2; adjust Loves a Challenge so that if someone does perish that the whole league isn't penalized.
4. Adjust Avoid Green Stuff so that the whole league isn't penalized. last night we would have gotten it but someone decided to put "be stupid" on their list of things to do at that moment and turned on their fly power. This resulted in the circle appearing over the heads of some of us and by the time we realized it....too late.
5. Bunker Buster: eh, no major gripes about that badge. As a suggestion, tweaking it to smashing all three doors in FIVE seconds instead of three may not be bad. Still a good chance of failing it as someone may get to trigger happy or someone decides to NOT LISTEN to the orders of "stay away from all the bunkers until the bunk buster sub team is FINISHED" (this happened the other night, the person was subsequently voted OUT of the league)
6. Anti-Anti Matter: no change needed for that.
Given that Antimatter can still defeat the league when people are being disintegrated thus healing him thus making him nigh invincible, I don't really see the above ideas nerfing the trial to the point of making it ridiculously easy.
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I would accept these as a reasonable compromise.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
So these are the changes I'm thinking of for Keyes:
1. When Antimatter starts his regen cycle; neither disintegration NOR the obliteration beam will fire due to the time freeze and they cannot fire until he is finished regenerating or his regen is interrupted. 2. Loves a Challenge should be stripped of the no death clause, period. Wouldn't it be challenging enough to not smash the terminals and let Antimatter fully regenerate without the no death clause? Also didn't the devs state sometime ago that there would be no more "no death" clause badges? 3. Instead of idea #2; adjust Loves a Challenge so that if someone does perish that the whole league isn't penalized. 4. Adjust Avoid Green Stuff so that the whole league isn't penalized. last night we would have gotten it but someone decided to put "be stupid" on their list of things to do at that moment and turned on their fly power. This resulted in the circle appearing over the heads of some of us and by the time we realized it....too late. 5. Bunker Buster: eh, no major gripes about that badge. As a suggestion, tweaking it to smashing all three doors in FIVE seconds instead of three may not be bad. Still a good chance of failing it as someone may get to trigger happy or someone decides to NOT LISTEN to the orders of "stay away from all the bunkers until the bunk buster sub team is FINISHED" (this happened the other night, the person was subsequently voted OUT of the league) 6. Anti-Anti Matter: no change needed for that. Given that Antimatter can still defeat the league when people are being disintegrated thus healing him thus making him nigh invincible, I don't really see the above ideas nerfing the trial to the point of making it ridiculously easy. |
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I sure thought they did. Of course maybe what they actually 'meant' is no more 'no death' restrictions for the entire TF/trial. Since this is only for part of the trial, it "doesn't count". |
Originally Posted by Nericus
2. Loves a Challenge should be stripped of the no death clause, period. Wouldn't it be challenging enough to not smash the terminals and let Antimatter fully regenerate without the no death clause? Also didn't the devs state sometime ago that there would be no more "no death" clause badges?
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There can't be a no death restriction for the entire trial due to the constant rad pulse, inevitably someone is bound to perish from it.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
I sure thought they did. Of course maybe what they actually 'meant' is no more 'no death' restrictions for the entire TF/trial. Since this is only for part of the trial, it "doesn't count".
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I think there is virtually unanimous consensus for #1, but I think #2 goes too far in the opposite direction. Without the threat of death, Antimatter is too trivial a pushover on his own to award a badge just for essentially defeating him three times with no other real restrictions.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
So these are the changes I'm thinking of for Keyes:
1. When Antimatter starts his regen cycle; neither disintegration NOR the obliteration beam will fire due to the time freeze and they cannot fire until he is finished regenerating or his regen is interrupted. 2. Loves a Challenge should be stripped of the no death clause, period. Wouldn't it be challenging enough to not smash the terminals and let Antimatter fully regenerate without the no death clause? Also didn't the devs state sometime ago that there would be no more "no death" clause badges? 3. Instead of idea #2; adjust Loves a Challenge so that if someone does perish that the whole league isn't penalized. 4. Adjust Avoid Green Stuff so that the whole league isn't penalized. last night we would have gotten it but someone decided to put "be stupid" on their list of things to do at that moment and turned on their fly power. This resulted in the circle appearing over the heads of some of us and by the time we realized it....too late. 5. Bunker Buster: eh, no major gripes about that badge. As a suggestion, tweaking it to smashing all three doors in FIVE seconds instead of three may not be bad. Still a good chance of failing it as someone may get to trigger happy or someone decides to NOT LISTEN to the orders of "stay away from all the bunkers until the bunk buster sub team is FINISHED" (this happened the other night, the person was subsequently voted OUT of the league) 6. Anti-Anti Matter: no change needed for that. Given that Antimatter can still defeat the league when people are being disintegrated thus healing him thus making him nigh invincible, I don't really see the above ideas nerfing the trial to the point of making it ridiculously easy. |
I think if the issue of defeat itself is a problematic one for Loves a Challenge, then Loves a Challenge itself would have to be completely redesigned, probably by adding a completely different challenge component.
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Everyone would love this, as far as I know.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
So should be Keyes be tweaked so that as Antimatter starts his regen cycle that he cannot cast disintegration and the oblit beam doesn't fire until he is done regenerating?
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In theory it's possible to manage the time stops by watching the combination of his HP and the Obliteration timer. In practice the folks I run badge attempts with are finding it impractical to do that and actually be useful in the fight.
Personally, I would like to see the timer on the Obliteration beam made longer. Even 30 seconds instead of 20 would make worrying about the Obliteration beam less manic.
I would also really like for "patch warnings" to always have a representation at ground level, but I suspect that's a mechanical limitation of limited priority to ever have changed.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I would also really like for "patch warnings" to always have a representation at ground level, but I suspect that's a mechanical limitation of limited priority to ever have changed.
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That's why I included #3 about changing it so that whole league isn't penalized for the defeat of one....or more |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think there is virtually unanimous consensus for #1, but I think #2 goes too far in the opposite direction. Without the threat of death, Antimatter is too trivial a pushover on his own to award a badge just for essentially defeating him three times with no other real restrictions.
I think if the issue of defeat itself is a problematic one for Loves a Challenge, then Loves a Challenge itself would have to be completely redesigned, probably by adding a completely different challenge component. |
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