Hardest Master of...

There are some trial badges that are components of the master badges that can fail due to problems outside the control of any one player. You can lack the firepower to do Separated properly in BAF, and then end up with too many buffed 9CUs that most players do not know how to deal with. Avoids the Green Stuff and Loves a Challenge can take practice even if you know what you're supposed to do. But most of them just require executing a proscribed strategy consistently, and human error factors into most failures of most of those badges. Failure and repetition is often the cost of formulating a strategy that eliminates random avoidable factors.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

I thought about it, but that would only encourage people to deliberately avoid Antimatter altogether to get the badge. You'd have people "forget" to leave the hospital to guarantee getting the badge.

Psychologically speaking, I think there's a big difference between a league voluntarily deciding to have some people sit it out in the safety of the hospital, and the game presenting that choice individually to each player and rewarding them for not participating.

Agreed, though the same can be said for the following badges:

• Loves a Challenge
• Midnight Dodger
• Master of the 5th Column Strike Force
• Master of the 5th Column Task Force
• Master of Lady Grey's Task Force
• Master of the Imperious Task Force
• Master of Statesman's Task Force
• Master of Lord Recluse's Strike Force

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

i totally disagree with this. The the thing that makes it tough is that you have to work as a team and make sure you AND your allies does die. I agree with green stuff and dodger

Some people, myself included, don't have a large SG to fall back on to ensure that everyone knows how to work together. If you have a stable SG that can do these badges on a regular basis, great.

The fact that a lot of players have to do these essentially with PUGs makes getting them harder than they should be.

The fact that they CAN be PUG'd is probably the best explanation why MoAPEX and MoBAF are far and away the most collected of the group.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Aside from not everyone having an SG to fall back on to coordinate these badges with, there is also:

1. Someone may be having a laggy/crummy connection and thus get killed. Granted they should have aborted and let someone else have their team spot

2. Someone is too lazy or arrogant to follow instructions and blows the badge for the rest.

Why should the rest of the team be penalized for someone's crummy connection or unmitigated arrogance?

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Somewhat to that point and somewhat ironically, I (my main) have a lot of the "difficult" master badges and arm missing a lot of the "easy" ones. I have Master of Tin Mage, Master of Lambda, Master of Keyes. I'm missing Master of STF, Master of LGTF, Master of ITF, Master of 5SF, and Master of 5TF. And the reason is that I've been fortunate that the few people running Master runs on the Incarnate trials and the two Incarnate task forces in the past on my server have generally gone out of their way to ask me to join. So no matter how intrinsically difficult they are, I eventually get them. But Master of STF runs for example are actually rarer, and I never see when they happen, and there is zero chance that's going to magically happen on the typical PUG run. I have a better chance of soloing a Master of STF run than having it happen randomly.

Hopefully, I'll get on a successful Underground run soon and at that point I'll have all of the Master badges related to incarnate content. But it might be years before I have all the Master badges for the older task force content. "Easier to execute" is not the same thing as "easier to acquire."

Both of these arent valid points imo. I actually test out my toons and see how they will do with really bad lag, in fact i think the best toons are the ones that are still good.

Really? someone is lazy? Thats the best you can come up with?


I will say this tho, a lot of the MOs get HARDER the more people you add.

Harder than they "should" be? Can I borrow some of that entitlement complex? You sound like you have a lot to spare...

It doesn't have anything to do with an entitlement complex. Though it sounds like you should look into a mirror before accusing others of having any complexes.

This is a casual-friendly game. When PUGs still regularly fail these and others aren't even bothering with the challenges, then yes, they are harder than they should be.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Well, considering MOs are supposed to be some of the hardest badges in the game to get i think they are in the right spot. Lets not forget that iPowers have made them EASIER already. I actually did an MoSTF once and everyone was just bored because it was so easy. And I would think only half of that team could solo an ITF, so imo they werent even "good."

Oh, and my SG has one active player in it...

If anything they need to introduce new badges that have us run TFs on even harder settings. Maybe add buffed and debuffed, and no insp or something.


I'm sorry but these badges just arent that hard to get at all anyway.

So something that the devs want to be challenging "should" be achievable by people who don't know what they're doing? How does that make it challenging?

And yes, it's entitlement. You seem to have issue with every badge that seems to take any more time or effort than street-sweeping mobs that are 30 levels below you. Its about time you realized that badges are REWARDS, and that rewards have to be EARNED. And if someone isn't up to snuff (Can't stay alive, doesn't have proper motor reflexes, doesn't have the patience to park their character in a given spot when they're done playing), then they don't get the rewards. I have no problem with a design philosophy that bars people from gaining bragging-rights rewards. Not good enough to get the badge? Then you don't get the badge. If you have a problem with that, that's entitlement.

Let's play a mental game: Suppose the Devs came to you and asked you to design a badge that is supposed to be the most difficult to get in the game. What would you make the conditions for this badge be WITHOUT it being something you'd complain about? Maybe if you can answer that, I'll have a better idea where you're coming from.

I could say several things, most of which could get me a time out on the forums, but suffice it to say that if you want to continue to bring out that particular strawman there is nothing to discuss. If you continue to bring it out, you show that you don't want to talk about this. Instead, you just want to make ad hominem attacks in hopes that you will somehow "win" your argument.

No it is not. It is a desire to keep the game casual friendly. It is a desire to to attract more people to attempt to get the badges than to keep it an exclusive club. It is a desire to be INclusive rather than wanting to be EXclusive.

You aren't really fostering any sort of discussion with the personal attacks. At this point I'm missing the following badges on my badge character:

• Savior of Atlas Park
• Freedom Cracker
• Shining Star
• Brightest Sun
• Supernova
• Hydra Stomper
• Preservation Specialist
• Avatar Assassin
• Master of the Underground
• The Cleanser
• Bug Hunter
• 7 Year Veteran
• 8 Year Veteran
• Passport
• D.U.S.T. Ranger
• Scavenger
• Psychologist
• Survivalist

As this list shows, I'm not unable to get difficult badges. So any suggestion that I'm not willing to do what is needed is an outright falsehood.

The issue is having to depend on 2-23 other players who's skill might not be enough. I've stayed alive throughout the Anti-Matter battle without getting hit by the beam and without getting defeated. I was on several teams that defeated Marauder without using any temp powers, why should I have to do it 3 times?

Ok, here are a couple:

Lambda:
Antacid Badge - Get 10 Molecular Acids and no Pacification Grenades in the sabotage phase, but don't use them. You aren't allowed to use any Molecular Acids during the fight with Marauder, but you can collect and use Pacification Grenades.

Well-Stocked Badge - Get 10 Pacification Grenades and no Molecular Acids in the sabotage phase, but don't use them. You aren't allowed to use any Pacification Grenades during the fight with Marauder, but you can collect and use Molecular Acids.

Keyes:
Loves a Challenge - Complete the Keyes Island Reactor Trial without you being defeated during the final battle with Anti-Matter, but you need to be in the battle area for the duration of the fight.

Avoids the Green Stuff Badge - Don't be caught by an Obliteration Beam in the final battle with Anti-Matter during the Keyes Island Reactor Trial, but you need to be in the battle area for the duration of the fight.

Tin Mage:
Midnight Dodger What Dodges at Midnight Badge - Take no damage from proximity mines during the warehouse battle in the first mission of the Tin Mage Mark II Task Force, but you need to be in the warehouse for the duration of the fight.

MoSTF, MoRSF, MoITF, Mo5th TF, Mo5th SF, MoLGTF:
You need to be active in all the missions without being defeated. You are not dependent on everyone else not being defeated.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Translation: Put the "I" back in team because everyone knows that when you say "MMORPG" you're actually intending to type "MORPG."

Haven't we had glitchy problems in the past with missions and rewards that depended on something being in a very specific place or a very specific state continuously? Not sure I would want to rely on that for an otherwise tricky badge to get.

And that is not the same as 'casual-only'. This is clear when you look at how long it takes to get all the Incarnate slots to 4th tier.

I was asked to give an example of a challenging badge I'd be ok with. Not every badge I listed was dependant on a single player's actions. As they are set up, they are not pug-friendly, because some person will screw things up for up to 23 other players either by not paying attention or on purpose. You want challenging badges, fine. Challenge in a way that player stupidity or malice is mostly taken out of the equation.

I'm sure you can give examples, but I'm not following you.

What? Less than a week if a person is lucky. I know one player that went from 50 to 50+3 in two days. I'm pretty sure that if he gets the right rolls he can have all 5 incarnate slots to T4 in a week.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

I had +3 in about a day..

If someone honestly refuses to listen to badge instructions or purposely fails your badge run, you can take them out of the equation by not inviting them back. Not everyone cares about getting the badges and some folks might join badge runs just to get on a trial. It makes more sense, in my opinion, to remove them myself than to criticize the badge design for allowing one person to potentially ruin everything.

Also, I keep stumbling across this notion of yours that you require a well engineered SG to get the more difficult Keyes badges. I've gotten the Master of Keyes 3 times over, and not once was it as part of a large SG. Each and every time it was as a part of a PuG with 18-24 people using League Chat as our only communication (i.e., no Vent). The first 2 times I scheduled badge runs on the forums where anyone was allowed to come so long as they had done the trial at least once (i.e., knew enough about the trial to know what I meant by 'Obliteration Beam'). I also hosted runs for first timers during the week and one directly before hand. The third time I got the Master of Keyes badge was with someone else leading, who themselves was a part of a one-man SG as far as I could tell, that simply ran Keyes each evening at around the same time while trying for the badges. It took them about a week and a half to get them all, Avoids the Green Stuff taking the longest. The rest of the badges were earned in the first couple nights.

I am OK with the fact that there are badges for different types of challenges in this game. A lot of badges you can get solo, but some will require you to work closely with other people. Sometimes that means the challenge is other people. These types of badges are often the most frustrating, but are also the most rewarding. I am willing to work with others so long as they're willing to give the badge an honest effort. If something goes wrong, I'll ask for feedback on what happened and if there is anything that can be done to make it easier. For example, for Avoids the Green Stuff, people changed the colour of their Rebirth to anything but green. Pets that blocked visibility (Storm Elementals with Hurricane) were dismissed. We also decided as a group to leave the terminals alone, whether or not we were going for Loves a Challenge, due to the tendency for people to get caught in the beam in those corners. One person had difficulty seeing the Obliteration Beam graphically, so instead of having them avoid it, I designated a 'safe person' for them to follow at each Beam warning. Sometimes teamwork goes beyond telling people what to do over and over again, and instead investigating the problem areas and thinking of some practical solutions. And no, practical solutions does not necessarily mean telling people to stand in the hospital.

The game seems to have had problems in the past with properly tracking special conditions like X is consistently alive, or in a particular location, etc. It sounds like a complex problem for the game servers to continuously track when players are within the combat area for the final fight, given how potentially large and irregularly shaped that area is. A glitch could cause a player to lose the badge without knowing anything about it until the end.

I'm not even sure what the precise region and timeframe is for Lambda. I was on one Lambda where some players actually started fighting him outside the walls but still near the area, and I quickly taunted him back inside and the trial didn't fail.

And in some cases that isn't an option. When I have difficulty, on a weekend, getting a consistent group to even get to 12 players, then I can't afford to "not invite them back" in some cases.

No, but most people that are claiming the badges are easy are usually the ones with a dedicated SG behind them.

Triumph took two months to get the MoKeyes. The only times the groups stayed the same was on nights where 2-4 trials took place back to back. Otherwise there were always someone new.

Funny, I don't find them rewarding at all. And more to the point, they are supposed to be a deterministic method to get incarnate salvage. If players can't get the badges, then the deterministic approach to getting the material isn't a viable option.

If I could get a consistent group, that would be possible. I can't get people to stop flying by asking nicely.

Again, the group thing comes up. Without getting a consistent group, be it a set group for the badges or a dedicated super group, the problem is the same: getting the consistent group.

After many tries and approaches, we found something that worked.

I tried many, many things before trying that solution (partially formulated by reading this section of the forums, partly by consulting with Arcanaville). The thing is, it works. It accomplished the goal: get the badges by minimizing the factors that could go wrong.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Just wanted to clarify that when I say we decided 'as a group' I meant the league I was running it with that day. I carried forward what we learned to subsequent groups that were not necessarily the same people.

Have you tried posting scheduled runs? I find that posting a schedule on the forums and having people sign up attracts more dedicated players and less who are just 'along for the ride'. It also gives them advanced notice, so you may have better luck with numbers, and tends to draw a more consistent group of people. Chances are you'll have some new people in the mix, but a lot of familiar faces.

Regardless, I cannot dispute your personal experiences. I understand that the badge runs can be frustrating. What I am trying to show is that although you may experience these frustrations on Triumph, there are other servers who are managing to get PuG style groups to complete these badges and are not using anything other than in game communications and occasionally the forums. These servers are not necessarily Virtue or Freedom. The examples I gave were based on my home server, Champion.

Barring out and out griefers who won't get invited again, the team isn't being penalized for someone getting defeated. They're being penalized for not pulling together to make certain no one is defeated.