In terms of what? I've always thought Axe was pretty balanced with everything else but the cone AoE could do with covering slightly more area.
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I though mace and axe are equal now on powers? Not same order but each have a cone, piercing cone, mini aoe and few st powers. Damage wise it do feels mace is on the upperhand.
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I did a comparison between Axe and Mace a long time ago, and Mace comes out on top IMO. Mace's cone hits twice as many foes for starters, but Mace also, oddly, has more consistent knockdown than Axe, and that's supposed to be Axe's thing.
I'll see if I can dig it up. But really comparing Axe and Mace isn't all that productive. Better to compare with something like Stone Melee or SS. A top performer.
I still think the max foes on Pendulum (180 degree cone, max foes 5) and Cleave (20 degree cone, max foes 10) were swapped at some point. Why in the WORLD would you give a 20 degree cone a max of 10 foes, and a 180 a max of 5? Baffling.
Axe isn't bad, not at all, but it is very very solidly mediocre. Mediocre performance on a set that shares animations with two other sets in the game makes for a pretty non-tempting set unless you're working with a theme. Really what needs to happen is that both Axe and Mace should be brought up to par with sets like Stone Melee or SS.
I think there's a redraw issue that effects Axe and Mace too, but I can't remember the details.
Mace was considered mediocre especially when compared on damage, but there was a balance struck with Mace's secondary effects, but the value of that effect to most people wasn't acceptable in my mind due to not being taken into consideration.
Mace needed a buff, then they buffed it, Castle I believe, he buffed Mace past my expectations, I said it then and these were the days when I had everything on excel and could see the balance for myself and I agreed on the logic of how things were balanced across all Tanker secondaries with the exception ofc of being balanced for PvP. Even the amount of potential secondary effect per end per sec was taken into my considerations. Even the amount of area aoes took up.
Once Mace was buffed beyond my expectations, and at the time I said I thought it had been, it then left Axe behind in my book looking for that je ne sais quoi. More degrees in its AoE would mean more opportunity for targets to be hit and that would set things right in my mind. Not much, not clear as a bell but it would be there, but ya never know Axe could be buffed beyond all our expectations just like Mace was.
As for other secondaries they looked fine till Energy Melee was changed and now that turned into something that could do with doing more AoE over time to me too, but the Devs said that wasn't the case. Many moons later a thread popped up with people suggesting such, that it could do with more aoe. I guess we work things out a little differently.
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Yeah I just looked over the numbers and could post them if people want to see but the short of it is this.At the end of the power set War maces has better Endurance costs, hits more targets, deals more damage and has better knock-ups than Battle Axe. I'm just wondering why considering War maces is supposed to be about disorienting and not knock ups. The main offenders here are Cleave and Pendulum where cleaves tiny 20 degree arc and an 80% chance to knock up and Pendulum only hits 5 targets and has a measly 50% chance to knock up . Neither of them have a instant knock up like Shatter and Crowd Control and I just think it's weird.
My main is an inv/ax and it pins me to say, but ax needs a bit of a boost to compete these days.
Simply giving pendulum ten targets would do it, for my thinking. I gotta think cleave/pendulum got switched at some point.
Axe needs to put a bleeding dot on the targets addition to the KD or something. Right now it's just a crappier Mace which is why no one uses.
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i like the idea of axe doing some DoT (and would actually prefer that over KD/KB)|
Originally Posted by Dz131
Axe needs to put a bleeding dot on the targets addition to the KD or something. Right now it's just a crappier Mace which is why no one uses.
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that alone would put it on par with mace, then the sets would be equal in different ways, one offers more dmg, one offers mitigation in the form of stuns
If they made it's Final ability hit 10 targets and Auto Knock down I'd be happy. hell if they made it hit 10 targets I'd be happy.
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Axe offers plenty of mitigation via knockdown. On my inv/axe tank, I'll start taking a lot more damage if I stop attacking. I am at least one axe user who would not give up reliable kd for more damage. (I know, I know, "death is the ultimate debuff", but on a tank, death takes quite a few swings to achieve, and I'd not give up my mitigation to make it take a few less.)|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i like the idea of axe doing some DoT (and would actually prefer that over KD/KB)
that alone would put it on par with mace, then the sets would be equal in different ways, one offers more dmg, one offers mitigation in the form of stuns |
Looking at the character creation screen, the last two powers in War Mace do less damage, cost less endurance, and recharge faster. They also have an 8 ft radius, whereas Cleave has 7 ft (!) and Pendulum has 10 ft. I suspect this is just so the powers aren't exact duplicates. If nothing else, it probably makes sense that the mace would be a bit quicker to swing about. However, it's true that those powers each have a 100% chance of .67 mag kb (knockdown unless you're fighting greens or greys), where the Axe powers do not. That *is* kind of strange.
However, you can't really compare powersets based on the last two powers alone; Axe has 40-50% chance of kd in the first three powers, Mace's first three don't compare evenly because the powers were rearranged and Mace isn't built quite the same. Both sets have a 70-75% chance knockup power, and Axe has three of these 50-50 knockdown single-target attacks where Mace gets two with a small (10-20%) chance of mag 2 stun and a 100% chance mag 3 stun (since the recent changes to Clobber). Otherwise they're roughly similar in that they have taunt, build up, and the three previously discussed AoEs. Whirling Mace has a 30% chance for mag 2 stun, and Whirling Axe has a 50% chance for knockdown.
To me, this means Axe is built around, more or less, the idea that 50% of things you hit with it fall down. That's pretty good mitigation. Contrast Mace, with its one reliable stun and three powers with stuns that range from occasional to sometimes. Also, these are 6 second stuns, which means less on anything other than an even-con minion, and only Clobber is reliable enough to be worth slotting for. The other attacks really aren't good for much more than shutting down a mob's offensive toggles before the stun wears off.
Mace might look better in its last two powers, but Axe is pretty good as it is. It may never be the DPS king, but the mitigation is effective. I agree that it looks like Cleave and Pendulum have their max targets swapped, as I have no idea how you'd ever hit 10 of anything with Cleave. I kind of like the bigger radius on Pendulum, though, and am not sure I'd prefer to have it hit more targets if the radius was shortened.
(Note: all these numbers were taken from the character creation screen, set to create a tank. Other ATs may vary.)
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I agree, I dont want more damage I just wish it had more knockdown. it just seemed weird to me that maces would have more reliable knockdown at the end than axes. Gorgar is definatley right about the first three powers and they are why I chose and love axe so much, because about every other time I swing somethings gonna happen whereas maces has very small percentage chances on disorients.
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But that advantage doesn't do you a lot of good if you don't end up with the early powers in your build. I have the first attack (for bruising), swoop, whirling axe, cleave, and pendulum. That's five attacks, plenty to build an attack chain, and I don't even have hasten. |
Originally Posted by Runawayrpg
I agree, I dont want more damage I just wish it had more knockdown. it just seemed weird to me that maces would have more reliable knockdown at the end than axes. Gorgar is definatley right about the first three powers and they are why I chose and love axe so much, because about every other time I swing somethings gonna happen whereas maces has very small percentage chances on disorients.
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The radius doesn't really matter. Pendulum has such a small max targets that it's most likely not taking advantage of that extra three feet anyway. I'm using Pendulum in the middle of large groups of bad guys. I don't need to hit guys farther away from me, I need to hit MORE of the guys close to me!
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Yeah, I don't know where the "first three attacks" idea came from, it's really only Bash and Pulverize that are significantly inferior in damage mitigation to the Axe equivalents. The T3 WM attack is Jawbreaker, which has very reliable KU, like Swoop.|
Originally Posted by Dromio
But that advantage doesn't do you a lot of good if you don't end up with the early powers in your build. I have the first attack (for bruising), swoop, whirling axe, cleave, and pendulum. That's five attacks, plenty to build an attack chain, and I don't even have hasten.
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And as you note, many players don't take one of those attacks anyway, (since Brutes have the option of skipping Bash) so having one attack with more reliable secondary effects seems like a very, very minor advantage.
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| The radius doesn't really matter. Pendulum has such a small max targets that it's most likely not taking advantage of that extra three feet anyway. I'm using Pendulum in the middle of large groups of bad guys. I don't need to hit guys farther away from me, I need to hit MORE of the guys close to me! |
I think the idea is that since both Cleave and Pendulum do more damage than their WM equivalents that it balances out the lesser AoE potential. However, even though I'm an unabashed (no pun intended) WM advocate, I wouldn't object to having one of those attacks buffed a little, since most of the advantage seems to be on the WM side ATM.
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Originally Posted by Runawayrpg
Why are Battle axes end tier abilities so sub par compared to it's closest competitor War Mace?
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In part because Mace was the perennial worst tanker power set from the games release up until 07 when we got Castle (former powers guy) to look at it. Some time following the buff to War Mace some complaints started to surface over Axe being an underperformer, complaints that rarely showed up prior to the nearly identical Mace set getting the upgrade.
Castle's objective was to solidify Mace as the aoe melee set, and that's what we got but the numbers separating the two sets currently are not that monumental, in fact I believe had Floyd done nothing to WM Axe would likely still be thought of as the strongest weapon power set.
All that aside, getting BA a little buff isn't something I would object to, but I'd prefer it be focused on the ST damage to keep the two sets distinct.
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Me quoting you is in no way a criticism of you Ace. I'm just pointing out the qualifier there.|
Originally Posted by Acemace
Castle's objective was to solidify Mace as the aoe melee set, and that's what we got but the numbers separating the two sets currently are not that monumental, in fact I believe had Floyd done nothing to WM Axe would likely still be thought of as the strongest weapon power set. |
As I mentioned before, and quite honestly it was Acemace that got me going this direction, ultimately the problem isn't that Axe is worse than Mace. The problem is that the "weapon" sets are worse than the "regular" sets. Not only in performance, but Mace and Axe don't even get their own animations!
The battle shouldn't be between the weapon sets, it should be the weapon sets both trying to get brought up to par with the non-weapon sets.
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That's why I keep asking for alternate weapon animations. Frankly, I think they needed it over all the ranged attacks, just because the projectile variations of all the ranged attacks make for the real difference among those animations (I do notice the casting motion some, but not nearly as much as I note the attack animations on melee characters).|
Originally Posted by Dromio
Not only in performance, but Mace and Axe don't even get their own animations!
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Broad Sword, Axe, and War Hammer all used to be the same set, too, which makes for even bigger similarities. Some variation among them all would be really helpful. I can't play Axe or Broad Sword since I have a commonly played Mace Tanker... their animations seem too much of the same to me. Same with Banes.
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Redraw is a minor -irritating- lingering issue for starters, the cut into dps over extended gameplay accumulates into a drag on performance pitted against non-weapon sets.|
Originally Posted by Dromio
The battle shouldn't be between the weapon sets, it should be the weapon sets both trying to get brought up to par with the non-weapon sets.
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And as far as overall damage here is where I'm interested in seeing the final baselines for Titan Weapons and I'm hoping they're impressive regardless of activation gimmicks -- read 'a rising tide lifts all boats'.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
That's why I keep asking for alternate weapon animations. Frankly, I think they needed it over all the ranged attacks, just because the projectile variations of all the ranged attacks make for the real difference among those animations (I do notice the casting motion some, but not nearly as much as I note the attack animations on melee characters).
Broad Sword, Axe, and War Hammer all used to be the same set, too, which makes for even bigger similarities. Some variation among them all would be really helpful. I can't play Axe or Broad Sword since I have a commonly played Mace Tanker... their animations seem too much of the same to me. Same with Banes. |
Alternate weapon animations are in the pipeline, just nothing solid as to eta.
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Originally Posted by Acemace
In part because Mace was the perennial worst tanker power set from the games release up until 07 when we got Castle (former powers guy) to look at it. Some time following the buff to War Mace some complaints started to surface over Axe being an underperformer, complaints that rarely showed up prior to the nearly identical Mace set getting the upgrade.
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In fairness, Mace was QUITE bad before the upgrade. However, if they were shooting for parity, and the target numbers for cleave and pendulum are NOT reversed, then they overshot a bit.
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| Castle's objective was to solidify Mace as the aoe melee set, and that's what we got but the numbers separating the two sets currently are not that monumental, in fact I believe had Floyd done nothing to WM Axe would likely still be thought of as the strongest weapon power set. |
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| All that aside, getting BA a little buff isn't something I would object to, but I'd prefer it be focused on the ST damage to keep the two sets distinct. |
This is interesting. I've never really thought of mace or ax being either ST or AOE focused, since both have plenty of both kinds of attacks.
We have three 'heavy weapon' sets: Ax, mace, and broadsword. There's also the 'light weapon' (two handed) sets, katana and dual blades, but those both seem fine to me.
Let's assume we want to differentiate like so:
Ax is ST with kd.
Mace is aoe with stuns and kd.
Broadsword is both (earlier) with parry.
On that metric, ax looks even a bit worse....
Ok, among those sets, one power has a 'bleed' effect, Whirling Sword, which is 3, 100 percent ticks, each of ten percent extra damage, lethal, after 1 second, taking 2.1 seconds.
This is a slightly better +damage mechanism than fire, but is more resisted and only applies to one or a few powers. Looks about even.
Taking that bleed mechanism, how about this:
For Ax, add bleeding to chop, gash, and swoop. This adds roughly 25 percent more single target damage to Ax, but does not raise AOE at all. For non-tanks it 'evens out' the performance of the set versus tankers, as they can skip beheader.
For Mace, leave it alone. Maybe, MAYBE, raise the mitigation percentages on the low attacks by ten percentage points. They're pretty low....
For Broadsword, add bleeding to Slice. This makes BS a more balanced set against ax and mace, and closes the gap between it, dual blades, and Katana a bit. BS is now a stronger AOE set (slightly), katana remains better in ST, and DB has it's fancy combos to differentiate it.
This would bring up at least two and possibly three of the weapon sets (especially those saddled with both redraw and lethal damage) versus the non-weapon sets.
Thoughts?
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
Yeah, I don't know where the "first three attacks" idea came from, it's really only Bash and Pulverize that are significantly inferior in damage mitigation to the Axe equivalents. The T3 WM attack is Jawbreaker, which has very reliable KU, like Swoop.
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Originally Posted by Gorgar
However, you can't really compare powersets based on the last two powers alone; Axe has 40-50% chance of kd in the first three powers, Mace's first three don't compare evenly because the powers were rearranged and Mace isn't built quite the same. Both sets have a 70-75% chance knockup power, and Axe has three of these 50-50 knockdown single-target attacks where Mace gets two with a small (10-20%) chance of mag 2 stun and a 100% chance mag 3 stun (since the recent changes to Clobber). Otherwise they're roughly similar in that they have taunt, build up, and the three previously discussed AoEs. Whirling Mace has a 30% chance for mag 2 stun, and Whirling Axe has a 50% chance for knockdown.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
And as you note, many players don't take one of those attacks anyway, (since Brutes have the option of skipping Bash) so having one attack with more reliable secondary effects seems like a very, very minor advantage.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
Agreed, Pendulum doesn't need more radius, it needs more targets. Cleave, however could definitely use a wider cone, in practice how often do you hit more than one target with its 20 degree cone?
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Completely agree about Cleave; I'm happy to hit two things with it. My guess is that attacks like this were meant to be considered single target with the occasional happy accident of hitting another target as well, rather than thought of as actual AoEs.
All I'm trying to do here is not lose the things I like about Axe in exchange for more damage. I do think it's odd that Mace has better chance of knockdown in its last two powers, but my point is that Mace seems to be a set with more extreme variance in the utility of its powers, and Axe is more consistent, which can be a strength.
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Why are Battle axes end tier abilities so sub par compared to it's closest competitor War Mace?