Sad Sonics

I don't want to be that person. I am super grateful for the leaps and bounds that city of heroes has made. This year has been a crazy amount of material that has really helped the game change. The powers seem to be getting better and better, but now with our edition of powers (time manipulation and thermal radiation) I feel like the sonic defender abilities seem even more jipped than ever. We all know that other sets are overpowered quite q bit. One of the overpowered defender sets for instance,force field, are over powered in terms of numbers between the two and honestly we can compare them to most sets in the defender arena and see that it is under powered. (except for maybe trick arrow which needs some loving ,but I digress)
I was just wondering if maybe, if it's at all possible...maybe we can raise the numbers a wee bit? Each set is known for having there own form of protection:self and team. Why don't we raise the numbers of sonic barrier/haven from a base of 20% to 25% or raise sonic dispersion from a base of 15% to 20%. even just having sonic dispersion raised, that would help the set for being known as THE resistance defender. With thermal numbers coming close to the same protection, but with heals and a rez....we're at even more risk of not having sonic defenders. We are already a rare sight and I see this wonderful archetype play style not be enjoyed by others. We all know +defense numbers can be lower than resistance so having the numbers become higher for resistance will make it more balanced. It's just a great set and would love to see it played more

Given that FF has no debuffs, and Sonic does, I'd call it a wash. Not that they both couldn't use looking at. There are plenty of threads that point out their flaws (As well as TA).

To compare defense to resist is kinda silly. Most people build for defense, so I'd think a sonic would be greatly valued at any level given how common a defense AT is to find.

Anyone that knows the game loves a sonic, despite the shortcomings of the set.
(as long as you're not playing it

I thought it was widely accepted that Sonic trumps FF these days? Haven't heard anyone say overpowered and Force Fields in the same sentence in fo... well ever really.

Then again I still consider Sonic to be one of the 'new' sets. *Shrugs*

I agree that Sonic Resonance could use some help, and that Thermal further eclipses it.

Part of the problem is that it is often compared to other sets when combined with Sonic Blast, which makes up for its shortcomings by being the best Defender blast set.

I'd say Defender level Sonic is the king of +Resist buffs, but could use some love to make it king of -Res debuffs. Currently its outperformed by a good few other sets (eg Storm, TA) in this regard in all cases except against a single hard target.

Sonic is a pretty amazing set when played well.

60% res to all damage types outside of Psi with Cardiac.
-60% res easily maintained against any hard target. -30% Res AoE

AoE and ST mez protection.

All this from a few powers with some skippable ones leaving plenty of room for Leadership/Veng. While the tier 9 is underwhelming, the rest of the set is relatively low maintenance with some solid values, allowing you to blast away. And with the addition of Rebirth and Ageless, you can bring other valuable buffs to the team depending on your personal preferences.

Defense is available from so many sources, sets like FF are if anything horribly underpowered.

by over powered I was speaking in the sense that the set is known to have and to have had more than necessary for the job. There has to be some kind of order, you know? All i'm trying to say is that the set is definatley on the lower end. It's a great set, but wish it was known for being more in the middle.

I wasn't trying to put down the power set at all. I have a ff/rad I love, bu tI know playing her I can give almost 40% to defense and with my sonic I give about 55% resistance to others. Just want it to be like 60-65.

The main point being I don't want to whine because

"*Cries* We have so many great and fun sets to play."

like dr harmony said, even if they enhanced the debuff i'd be happy. Just give a dog a bone. It's a great set and would like others to experience it, but won't if they know theres other hybrid sets that are much safer.

No Psi Resistance (still a common hole in many armor sets), very common in the 40s.
No endurance tools or endurance drain resistance, very common in the 40s.
Heavy endurance costs when teaming via Disruption Field mainly.
No reactive healing whatsoever.
Very few tools for soloing - basically a single target -Res and 25% resistance + mez protection.

It gives up a lot to get that 60% -resist against hard targets. Its a solid enough low maintenance team support set, yes, but one with many holes.

And any Defender can take Ageless, Rebirth or Vengeance. I dont see their relevance when any non-sonic can take Barrier.

My favorite Defender is Sonic/Sonic, and I used to think I would never play a successful Defender at all.

Sonic definitely brings more to a wealthy team than FF.

Freedom will shake things up, though. We won't be able to count on teammates to be IO'd, softcapped, or any of that jazz, except in locked content like iTrials. And we won't be able to count on teammates being wealthy, at least, not for the first month or so...

Anyway, any discussion of Sonic defender balance needs to look at two things: 1) Sonic compared to buff/debuff sets within the same defender AT, and 2) Sonic defenders compared to Sonic controllers, corruptors and masterminds. If Sonic controllers, corruptors and masterminds are fine, then at least part of the problem is with defenders, not with Sonic per se.

I happen to think Sonic is worse off than forcefield.

With Forcefield, people tend to skip half of it. That half that's being skipped, rightfully should be there in the set, accepting concept and can offer survival on behalf of the rest of the team. Controversial as that skipped half may be, some people don't appreciate them but that to me is easily, made up by what you can substitute. What other attacks are on offer or what power build up can do as an example. Having a substitute goes in favour. Power build up in particular makes the set outdo its balanced self quite frankly.

People say that 1 def = 2 res, but for the very fact that when attacks miss, secondary effects also miss the ratio is slightly different to me. As a Firetank in the early 20s in Dark Astoria I found those secondary effects really exciting. Compared to other tankers of equal level and slotting logic..and yep being pure res relying on accuracy, recharge, movement and offense wasn't quite as easy.

So when I compare shields I roughly take into the idea 1 Def = 2 Res, just scan it and see that really forcefield bubbles offer more. I already know from damage sustainability calcs of the past that overall, bubblers added more survivability than Sonic discounting Sonics debuff. Power build bubbles and it gets better.

Sonic has not alot to power build up. As a set it, is what it is with lack of substitutes. It's own personal survivability is less than that of forcefields overall. Your adding fight duration to team mates and then trying to remove it from the enemy. Mobs could usually of gone down quick anyway or an AV might just take alittle bit longer in taking that tank whose relying on you. Not long enough sometimes. Sure tanks wont be so subject to dropping quick but the heals over time from other defenders may still offer more survivability to a tank.

Even as a player of both it's inconceivible to me to think of Sonic as better than Forcefield. Sure high end game some people have enough defense that they don't need Forcefield, still its not everyone, to every type and then there are the itrials which people could do with higher defense for. In leveling up, before people usually fully set, which is often for non plers half their characters life I think a bubbler is going to do more for survivability when 1 def = slightly more than 2 res. Going back to my Firetank yep I did team with a Sonic for much but also know the benefits of defense too, and not at the same time.

Maybe I am wrong, but I really think its going to take alot to convince me otherwise.

Sonic was the one of two I felt was in need of looking at, Poison was the other to me, but that's been changed.

Defense buffs are really easy to come by via IOs and other team buffs.

Resistance buffs are rare and hard to replicate.

Until someone does this (Arcanaville's scrapper secondary comparison) for defender primaries, the devs are most likely relying on in-game performance metrics (i.e., datamining) to gauge defender effectiveness.

And ... my gut feeling is that there isn't a whole lot of difference. Some sets clearly do better in some situations than others (1 bubbler and 7 blasters v. 1 kin and 7 blasters -- I know which team I'd rather be on).

There are nuances to defender performance that columns of numbers don't clearly show: a bubbled blaster has good odds for surviving an AV-level alpha -- a SBed blaster doesn't; a ringed blaster is not as likely to be mezzed as a cracked up blaster, meaning that the blaster can unload an interrupted chain of damage. And so we the players need to look elsewhere for performance metrics. And ... we the players don't have access to "elsewhere".

So why don't we see more ringers and bubblers? I don't think it comes down to just numbers. I think we have a situation where players want something a little more for than themselves (these sets are more team-centric than, say, Traps). They want powers that are a little more interesting than toggles and ST buffs. Caging powers don't fit well into the game.

Other sets in the game offer similar benefits (cold to FF; thermal to sonic), but with a more engaging bag of tricks to help keep the player's interest. No amount of tweaking the current numbers on Sonic's buffs will make the set popular. FF's buffs (at least from a defender) amount to an I Win! button for much of the game's content, but FF is among the least-played defender primaries.

There's more to making a set entertaining to play than just numbers.

There are some problems with sets that the devs can't fix without redoing the set ...

The bright side is that the devs learn from their mistakes, and subsequent defender sets are, generally, better designed than FF and Sonic.

Edit: something else to consider -- FF and Sonic don't have many interesting slotting options. Most powers, save Liquefy, are single function. And many, arguably, don't benefit from slotting. There's a whole meta-game that other sets have access to that Sonic and FF don't.

I love my Sonic/Sonic defender and I'm actually considering making another Sonic/*. That's how good I think it is.

I don't care if "this" or "that" set can hit the same or better numbers than Sonic. I like Sonic the way it is (with the exception of Liquify - I agree it could be better).

Edit: Not to mention I hate Thermal's gfx. And that matters to me.

I think Burning Chick and Necro both have hit on the two main points.

1) Sonic isn't all that weak because what it brings isn't easily found elsewhere.
2) Sonic still has a bad rap because it's not all that fun to play.

For solo play, I found sonic to be a LOT easier than a FF def.

Sadly, I can tell ya all about how my sonic seemed to make team play a steamroll, but without exit surveys from all my for team members, and a list of the powers, ATs, and full build lists, that's pretty much worthless.. Heck, even with that, my own single personal experience teaming with both sets as a def is pretty irrelevant.

But, I'll offer my opinion on defs in general and teaming. A team that is steamrolling, and adds an offensive def type in, will steamroll slightly faster, but the difference isn't likely to be noticed. A team really steamrolling, adds a defensive def to the team, may make almost no difference. So, the more offensive powers, the more a defender goes from nothing but a blaster, to a blaster with some extra team-wide leverage. Not much extra leverage, but some. But, the same is true for *anyone* added to a steamrolling team!

Defs in general make by far the biggest difference on a team that's just barely clearing, or barely not clearing, the obstacles. But in those cases, it also makes a difference as to why they are clearing the obstacles. Defs like rad, dark, cold, storm, and thermal (I'd guess now, tho I have yet to play the defender version, but I have played the set to 50 on a troller, so I'm not totally clueless about the set), have tools for almost every possible scenario. So of course they seem like the powerhouse sets. Kinetics is a heavy offensive set with some of the most universally wanted buffs, and one of them can self target, so on a steamrolling team, they will be most noticed, and even more so on lesser teams that are still on the tougher side.. So of course they are in demand.
It's the def sets that are 1 or 2 trick sets that seem to have problems. But, I think their problems are hugely overstated. People don't notice the contributions perhaps, but that doesn't mean that they aren't there.

To summarize, I'd say that a limit bag of tricks is the biggest reason a set will at times feel weak, but at other times feel awesome, if it's trick is needed. But the sets that have that problem can't be *fixed* without making them a totally different set. Some sets might need a tweak or two, but how that can be implemented isn't obvious.

*delete/delete/delete!* Sorry, was getting off topic...

I don't think sonic is the set most in need of help among defender primaries. Not even top 2. Maybe top three, but there are about 4 sets almost tied for that 3rd place, so... Sonic isn't the most glamorous set there is. It probably won't ever be barring a total rework of the set from the ground up. It won't ever be broadly in demand unless the debuffs it brings are made stupidly overpowered. It won't ever be widely played unless it's totally reworked. But it's none the less a quite capable, fully functional defender primary, that really isn't for everyone.

Two people have spoken up about how much they enjoy their Sonic Defenders (Aneko and False Fiction), and both have Sonic Blast as a secondary. Sonic Blast practically out-performs Sonic Resonance in terms of applying resistance debuffs. At least half of any hard-target-meltage you'd see with this pairing comes from the secondary, not the primary, and could be fairly closely matched by a Storm/Sonic, TA/Sonic. Rad/Sonic, and so on.

I do care that other sets can hit the same numbers, because we shouldn't be penalised in terms of performance for choosing sets on concept grounds. I like Sonic too - my Sonic/Energy Defender was the first characterI unlocked the Alpha slot on out of over ten level 50s, but during my career I had a fair few gripes.

- Struggling with endurance in the early levels. I had enough to shield everyone and keep Disruption and Dispersion up, but precious little to blast. This was before inherent Stamina, but wasn't fun.

Suggestion: Lower the end cost of Disruption Field.

- Difficulty soloing. I couldn't do invincible missions until my mid-30s, whereas nearly every other character I played hit that at 22.

Suggestions: Give me better -Res solo. Either make Sonic Siphon stack, or affect multiple targets, or make Disruption Field somehow workable without an ally. Use the "Swap Ammo" trick to unlock two mutually exclusive powers, an ally toggle and a self-toggle maybe.

- Being away for a while and then joining a request to beat up Babbage. Getting a "lol psi" from some articulate teammate when I turned up and realising all my protection powers were useless.

Suggestion: Add Psi resistance to Clarity/and or Dispersion. (Or Psi defence...)

- Limited IO potential, as Burning Chick says.

Suggestion: Give us a new set or two for resistance with some decent bonuses like happened to PBAoE sets. Or add some token defence somewhere, eg Psi Defence in Clarity maybe, so we can slot a LotG/Kismet etc in there. (Make the Clarity Psi Def Power-Boostable too)
At least we can slot a Steadfast IO no problem.
Maybe add some -Def into Sonic Siphon so we could add an Achilles heel in there like other sets often do to boost their existing -Res?

I think theres a lot of little tweaks that could be done to the set without re-writing it that would make it more competitive and fun to play, and hopefully more popular.

My 2 inf, I think Sonic Resonance is close to being quite good, at least for Defenders. I'm content with the +res the set offers, though a smidge more wouldn't make it OP. At worst, you take a squishy from 0 resists to 54ish, giving them a nice buffer to react to incoming damage. At best, you turn a resist based armor into a nigh unkillable force. I know I like Sonic shields on my Invul tanker more than any other buffs, as it gets me capped to pretty much everything but Psi.

Actually I think Sonic could use more in terms of -Res. Supposedly the king of resistance debuffing, in practice it's outshined by Storm, Cold and yes, even TA (Traps deserves an honorable mention). Sonic Siphon is just unimpressive, in its current state. I've seen suggestions to truly make it a siphon (ie, provide +res to allies) and/or make it affect more targets, like with a cone. I like either of these suggestions. As is, it's barely worth using on my Sonic/Sonic Def since I can approximate its -res with the blast set, but actually do some damage. For an AV it's worth throwing out every 30 seconds.

Beyond the +/- resist powers, it's seemingly a hodgepodge of powers that seem to have little to do with what I'd expect a master of sonic powers to have (like Klaw).

Sonic Cage - While Klaw certainly has this power (see below), gameplay-wise, one could say it's a neat party trick and little more. By "one", I mean me. Yes, I know you can cage towers in STF and with proper HO slotting cage some AVs, but in my own experience, it's never really been a difference maker. Soloists may like it, so I can't call it a complete dud, but I wouldn't miss it a bit if it got "cottaged".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FantasticFour_056.jpg

Sonic Repulsion - If there was ever a candidate for cottaging out of existence, it's this. Just a cruddy power. Someone may say "I like to put it on squishies in the back". To that I say squishies in the back need to learn how to deal with a little aggro.

Clarity - personally I don't have too much of a problem with this. It covers sleeps and allows you to stack protection and allow people run off on their own. While it does have some redundancy with Sonic Dispersion, I still find it useful and hey, something's got to be a 1-slot wonder. On my wish-list, I would't mind if it had a smidge of +res, like Thaw does, so I can throw in something like a Steadfast Protection, but it's fine as is.

Liquefy - I've got nothing new to say that hasn't been said a thousand times. The recharge is ridiculous for what the power does.

Now, having made an IO build that features high ranged defense (soft-cap-ish) and hard-capped s/l resists, I'm very happy with this particular character's self sustainability in the highest level content and content with the contribution for end-game teams. So I'm not a "sad sonic" but I'm not an "enthusiastic sonic" either. I don't think it would take much to get me to enthusiastic.

Gotta agree with the suggestions made by Deacon and Doc Harm. They would improve the set, without making it overpowered, but I don't think they would make the set interesting enough that people would flock to it. It would make the set better, obviously, but that would only affect those that already play it. And if every set that a player of felt needed an improvement, got an improvement, we'd be in bad shape in short order.

Yes, Sonic Repulsion is a total dud, and Cage is close, but as pointed out, at least it's thematic.

If the devs felt the set was under-performing and offered a boost to it, I'd be happy (as long as it was a real boost, not a silly one, like upping the duration of Cage) but I just don't see it as necessary. It might really need a look based on the upcoming Freedom crowd, if we're still basing sets around SO performance. I'll admit, I sure didn't build an SO only Sonic, and if the stated need for this set to be enhanced is based on SOs, then I personally can't offer any firsthand experience at all. For all I know, based on SOs alone, this set might be the world champion dog. For now I'll leave that to be discussed those that have actually tried it.

And, for what it's worth, I didn't pair my Sonic/ with a /Sonic. So my love for and positive opinion of the set isn't based solely on the wonderful performance of /Sonic. My 50 Sonic/ is a Sonic/Dual Pistols.. (I love the synergy of +res with -damage, fwiw).

I do love the set very much and I to have a level 50 sonic/sonic defender. (my first toon and first to 50)

Like i said, I see that every time a new defender set is put into place for us, the sets are much more rounded and able to handle more situations.

Just some of the older sets need a little tweaking just to help balance them. I am currently only defending sonic defender specifically because they're my favorites, but the "older" sets could use a little make over.
I mean even if they fixed liquefy I would be happy.
The recharge is outlandish.

All the suggestions that dr. harmony made seem like good places to start. Even if they all dont happen...at least one or two.

p.s. I have two sonic defenders and I have never taken sonic repulsion for more than 10 min. in my whole time of playing. Honestly...I don't really know anyone that uses this ability. The sonic set is very endurance hungry and even though I run all three leadership abilites and another toggle or two, I seriously can't see someone running that toggle as well as all the others. (even with no leaderships, or combat jumping, or epic powers)

My .02 influence, I have bought into sonic resonance since the beta for that issue. I find sonic cage to have far more utility when soloing. I agree that finding a way to proliferate applying the sonic disruption field to the defender WHILE SOLO would be good.

I rolled up a Demon/Sonic to witness the effects of having a willing sonic debuff anchor always available. Wow, talk about endurance usage! Even with inherent stamina, my toggles are crashing all the time.

The -resistance of disruption field is mobile and constant. If it's on a sympathetic ally or a melee pet, it's very effective to keep on a running/mobile hard target. In my opinion, less endurance cost or bigger debuff would be appreciated. Seeing the interplay with time juncture, a modest -damage debuff augmenting the anchor's -resistance would be an interesting improvement.

A couple defender sets need boosts, especially sonic and TA. Link in sig for official revamp thread

hmm...i tried but wouldn't let me add it. weird

Lots of great ideas and choices for improvements. Probably wouldn't get them all, but at least we laid out a good map for them to follow in improvements if chosen. I understand what you're talking about psylenz. My endurance isnt what it should be with stamina and endurance mods. I am down more than most usually. very intensive on the endurance...but I also blast a lot. A lot lot. That's half the fun as a sonic. I get like 400 damage with shout as a defender on a team. With just shout after some -resistance build up chain attacks, but still! awesome!!! Oh I want to play her...