Quick MARTy testing on Live - I haven't triggered it yet
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No. Back up a sec. I didn't say he gave us a BS "reason". The reason for the tool isn't BS and I fully support the fact that it's needed.|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Why is that a BS reason?
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The "metric" he used (simul-one-shotting the Freedom Phalanx or all of Perez Park) is BS. As there's no way to do that for someone NOT using hacks or the dev "I WIN ALL" button.
The gripe I have is that they essentially didn't announce the system UNTIL AFTER IT WAS DISCOVERED BY PLAYERS. Essentially last second, leaving no time in beta to allow the testers to beat on the system to make sure it was really and truly stable. Doing playbacks of high-activity server logs is not a substitute for this.
So my gripes are summarized thus:
A feeling of trust has been abused and player relations with the devs seem to be deteriorating.
A system has been put into place with inadequate testing.
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Originally Posted by Silas
I think its far too early to definitively say whether or not MARTy is working.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
Yeah they tweaked it yesterday to ALLOW that.
In BETA it wasn't allowing people to farm. Which is, you know, the main thing people use AE for. |
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I suspect it was adjusted, because Zwillinger was asking for bug reports in the main MART thread, and the maintenance before launch was extended. But no, I don't know that that's how it happened.
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Originally Posted by MajorTractor
Do we know if MARTy is broken and not working at all or tweaked from beta where it was most definately was killing farming in AE?
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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You're on Virtue. Come to our ghetto Atlas on Freedom and just listen to the Broadcast. It's shameful. Freedom's a great server, but like any large city in RL, you gotta know where not to go.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Funny, I thought we used it to create our own arcs and run RP missions.
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It's my understanding it was tested for some time, they just didn't tell anyone it was there.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
I don't mind being wrong. I was just annoyed that there was no testing to verify MARTy was implemented correcty. It's not that I don't trust the devs but I've been around long enough to know that any new mechanic introduced can and usualy does have a few bugs that need to be tweaked.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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Based on the last seven years of experience with this game*, internal testing without broader player testing has often been ill-fated. There are simply more inventive players than similarly inventive devs who can think of test cases the devs have not, let alone more players to execute test cases than the QA department has testers.|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
It's my understanding it was tested for some time, they just didn't tell anyone it was there.
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As such, I forgive people referring to "not explicitly tested by players in beta" as "not tested", even though it's unlikely the feature was not tested at all.
* I say that while acknowledging that the dev team has not had consistent membership across those seven years, and has (IMO) improved their quality of pre-player-testing content. (I'm sure their investment in longer lead-in using volunteer player testers outside their QA team has had something to do with that.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It would not be very surprising if they adjusted the limits for MARTy on beta before deciding what the final value should be on the production servers. Perhaps you were just unlucky enough to be playing when they were testing the low range.
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Originally Posted by ultrawatt
Well, i know i ran into it on beta. Ill have to take a look when i get on live later today.
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In this case they had a theoretical way to test it under real world conditions without testing it intensely in closed beta: they could have fed MARTy live server logs and checked to see what it flagged.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Based on the last seven years of experience with this game*, internal testing without broader player testing has often been ill-fated. There are simply more inventive players than similarly inventive devs who can think of test cases the devs have not, let alone more players to execute test cases than the QA department has testers.
As such, I forgive people referring to "not explicitly tested by players in beta" as "not tested", even though it's unlikely the feature was not tested at all. * I say that while acknowledging that the dev team has not had consistent membership across those seven years, and has (IMO) improved their quality of pre-player-testing content. (I'm sure their investment in longer lead-in using volunteer player testers outside their QA team has had something to do with that.) |
That's at least in theory. If I was writing MARTy, I would have explicitly included the ability to test it in that manner. I don't know if it is designed that way.
I would have also designed MARTy to be adjustable without a complete code publish, because otherwise that would somewhat defeat the intended purpose of MARTy. It might take a server patch to adjust MARTy, but I would hope it could be done without recompiling the entire game.
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Oh, I agree, and they may indeed have added something like that. (And I share your hope about what they have to do to modify its thresholds.) Based on feedback from recent M&Gs, its become apparent that Paragon Studios doesn't use a lot of automated testing, so I don't expect that they built such log playback/processing into it, but it's certainly possible. They are doing things of late they never used to have resources for.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Well people can use it for whatever they want. (I'm sure some people even use it for cybersex!) But I've found that most people tend to just use it for farming. Which is what I meant when I said farming was "the main thing people use AE for."
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Funny, I thought we used it to create our own arcs and run RP missions.
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When did you conduct your survey? I don't remember being asked.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
But I've found that most people tend to just use it for farming. Which is what I meant when I said farming was "the main thing people use AE for."
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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Haha who needs a survey. Just look at atlas park broadcast on Freedom.|
Originally Posted by Aneko
When did you conduct your survey? I don't remember being asked.
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If people rp'ed AE then there would be RP AE mission broadcasts. You know all the SS/Fire guys outside AE are farming and all the lowbies are gonna get farmed outside of AE entrance.
I can't even afk in an AE entrance or people will whisper me to get farmed til i block them. "Farm me for free" "Who do i ask for invite?"
The way i understood MARTy was that it just prevent exploits like a whole zone dieing at the same time for experience. I wouldn't doubt that theres people that use hacks and exploits on this game. It's no different than WoW where people would fly under the map to mine.
AE farming won't be changed anytime soon considering most of the population is at atlas park AE. They would lose money. They knew this when they made AE. Just remember captain dynamic/rooster teeth episode 1 and they made fun of him doing easy missions for the best rewards.
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I know what it's like there, but that's hardly the majority of players in the game.
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Originally Posted by Pureshadow2
Haha who needs a survey. Just look at atlas park broadcast on Freedom.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
I have seen tons of RP in AE -- organized through other channels, because if you try to start it openly, people get mad at you for not farming efficiently.
That's not because there's more of them, so much as because they can't read.
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its the way they gave marty to us that made people go nuts.no warning/no real "this is what it does" nothing.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Considering the parameters Zwill gave as a benchmark for what sets MARTy off, I was pretty surprised when people lost their nuts over it.
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just like e.d....we hear its needed and vague answers given.its untested cause beta doesnt give normal play even half the chance.people are there testing not normal gameplay.
its not a good place to test normal gameplay anything.
The reason people reacted the way they did because MARTy was being set off in beta a day before the release of i21. Whether it was a bug or not, I think some of the reactions were pretty fair. Also, the parameters given to set it off were complete ludicrous and weren't very helpful as far as testing goes.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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This.|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
The reason people reacted the way they did because MARTy was being set off in beta a day before the release of i21. Whether it was a bug or not, I think some of the reactions were pretty fair. Also, the parameters given to set it off were complete ludicrous and weren't very helpful as far as testing goes.
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The lack of transparency was bound to foster a aura of suspicion as to what would now be considered cheating and what would be considered aggressive gameplay.
As a person who likes to push the limits in game I don't want to end up with a banned account because some new metric says that something I have done for over 18 months is now beyond the pale.
If they as a dev team had been able to give some more realistic metrics on what would trigger MARTy then I really think people would have felt much less apprehensive about it.
I know as an anti exploit measure details have to be limited. Some more realistic trigger points would not have hurt.
The Ustream the next day in which it was intimated that MARTy can be adjusted on the fly left me hopeful that the system will be actively looked at and kept from being to big a PITA.
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There were level 50 toons with Beam Rifle and Time Manipulation on my Underground Trials on Thursday night.
So... MARTy doesn't necessarily stop anyone from going from 1 to 50 in a day and a half.
Which means that if anyone is actually bumping into MARTy... no sympathy. Take a bio break, will ya?
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majority of players in the game =/= majority of players in the AE.|
Originally Posted by Aneko
I know what it's like there, but that's hardly the majority of players in the game.
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GG.
One day you'll post more than a sentence.
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The afore-mentioned people in Atlas on Freedom are not the majority of players in the game who use AE, either, but nice nitpicking.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
majority of players in the game =/= majority of players in the AE.
GG. One day you'll post more than a sentence. |
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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Yeah, the inf sellers that hang out in Sharkhead's AE probably make up a near majority on their own. ¬_¬
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Originally Posted by Aneko
The afore-mentioned people in Atlas on Freedom are not the majority of players in the game who use AE, either, but nice nitpicking.
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I know two of the devs were playing several nights this week, they were giggling about how anon they were on their twitter feeds.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
There were level 50 toons with Beam Rifle and Time Manipulation on my Underground Trials on Thursday night.
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And, arguably, two days of 16 hr days would be about right for a vet player to hit 50 if they were running with friends, not really a true PL, but running beyond their non-sidekick abilities.
Edited to add: Nobody, anywhere, should judge anything based on our horrible Atlas Park on Freedom. Most people there don't play the game, instead broadcasting racist remarks and profanity while the LFFF trash beg. I have no idea what the LFFF people do once they have a 50. Go begging for another?
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Realize they have no feel for the character, the powers, the best chain, things they should've grabbed when needed and mistake that impression for the character 'sucking' at which point they either;|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
I have no idea what the LFFF people do once they have a 50. Go begging for another?
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Come here asking for an uber build.
Or.
Go begging for another.
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LFFF people probably do the same things anyone else does when they have a new 50: farm, PVP, PVE, RP or anything else they want to. They just get to the endgame differently.
Speaking to character knowledge, the same powerset on the same AT can perform very differently (quality-wise) depending on power choices and slotting. That said, powers are powers: a mez is a mez, ranged damage is ranged damage, PBAOEs are PBAOEs, etc. If you've ever been on a team with someone playing that AT, you can probably step into any of the AT's powersets and not embarass yourself, even if you never gained a level through your own effort. Support powersets are the most varied, but even they are self-explanatory. The game's just not so hard that someone gains a significant amount of skill over anyone else by grinding away through the levelling process.
To me, nothing is worse in this game or any other than going through weeks of content to realize that you hate the character. That's the kind of thing that makes me want to walk from a game, because what if the next character turns out similarly? There are dozens of other games I could spend that time on. Sitting through a day or so of PLing to get the final version up and running is a lot more efficient.
That said, this was what I had a problem with:
Maybe its just me, but I tend to get itchy when the tone and words of a post state that somehow I don't actually exist.
But, the fact that he said "main thing" implies he acknowledges that it has, at least, a secondary use.
And, of course, acknowledging that each person's subjective view is different the main thing for him is farming and secondary would be RP arcs.
Your subjective view would be the main thing as RP arcs and secondary farming.
So, you're both right. At this point it's a matter of argument who is most right and really that's not an argument that is ever won by anyone.