I don't really understand IO sets. I'm not gonna lie

BrokenFace · 09-11-2011 08:54 PM

Ok, so..let's start with the basics: I'm returning to the game. I am able to fund the building of the perfect troller...eventually.
I was wondering if someone would be able to toss together a "do this, not that" guide for a plant/thermal/fire troller. I simply don't know all the small details that have apeared since I left-and-returned to the City.
Right now, when I try to make a build, I end up with something like
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...08FC032F1CE72B

and I KNOW that there are a trillion things I'm missing. I know the utter awesomeness of a plant-thermal troller means this is the toon I want to drag through incarnate trials with(I have piles of aoe. shields. a heal that works on me without me being in melee. debuffs for the AV's, a rez, and just..gallons of awesome), but I'd just really like it if someone was to hold my hand through this first build. I know there's both a lot that I don't know, AND a lot that I've forgotten in my years /afk, and I don't want to utterly waste my i21 freespec.
if someone would take pity on a poor, returning fool, I will <3 you forevers.

Rodion · 09-11-2011 09:40 PM

Basically, if you're using lots of IOs you tend to aim for a particular effect. This can vary from softcapping S/L or ranged defense, or making some power permanent (such as Hasten, a dominator's inherent Domination, or a tanker's Dull Pain, or a Plant controller's Carrion Creepers), never running out of endurance, and so on.

Then you take powers that give you the basis for maximizing the desired effects, as well as powers that can slot IOs that will give bonuses that will get you to the desired numbers (be they defense, recharge, etc.).

The hard part comes in selecting the right stuff to make the desired numbers high enough without gimping your character's normal functioning. This is hard because sometimes the powers you need to take to slot IO sets that increase your numbers don't really complement your basic power.

The first thing then is to decide what superior target you're trying to hit. If all you really care about is minimizing endurance usage and making the character "snappy" to play, using a lot of IO sets that give good bonuses for recharge and endurance reduction, as well as global recharge bonuses (the purple and rare recipes you've chosen do a good job of that), is all you really need to do. That's what your build does, more or less.

One thing to note: you've chosen Maneuvers, but you don't really have any other defense to speak of, so it won't really do you much good personally. Small amounts of defense aren't very useful unless you've already got a lot (like 30% or more). Some people do take Maneuvers in order to slot Luck of the Gamber: Def/+Recharge, though. But you could also take Combat Jumping or Stealth to slot LotG: +recharge, and those may provide greater personal benefit than Maneuvers.

TheOOB · 09-11-2011 09:55 PM

I won't claim to be an expert either, but I'll throw in my 2inf.

The first thing to remember about IO's is to not gimp you're powers, make sure you're powers are getting the enhancement values they need to be good, sometimes that means sacrificing a set bonus to frankenslot(use enhancements from different sets to get the enhancement values you want), slot a Hami-O or even a common IO.

Second thing like Rodion mentioned, is to have a goal for you're build, something you're working twords. Getting other effects from set bonuses is nice, but most the time you're looking for something specific, as mentioned the recharge to make a specific power permanent or enable a specific attack chain, or softcapping defense are common build goals. This means you don't always need a full set, just take it until it provides what you need and then go.

The third thing to remember is price, unless you're independantly wealthy you will not be able to afford the rarest sets in most you're powers, a fulling IO-d out character takes time(or really good market mojo)

Oedipus_Tex · 09-12-2011 12:22 AM

The basic overview is that there are a few build directions that are realistic and a few that are not.

Primary goals for a build normally include the items in the list below:
- High Recharge
- High Ranged defense
- High Slash/Lethal defense

One thing you will have to accept is that there is no "perfect" build. Making a build means sacrificing something. A decent build compromises as little as possible in critical areas, but no matter what you do, you will always be making a choice between something.

My default for most Controllers is to pursue a high Recharge, high Ranged defense, s/l lethal Resistance based build. Other people prefer to maximize Recharge above all else, without worrying about defense. I think there are good arguments to go either way.

BrokenFace · 09-12-2011 03:24 AM

hmm. would tough/weave provide enough defense to noticably matter?
I'm not rocking a /kin secondary, so I don't need tactics, I'm rocking fire, so I'm...burny, and my shield looks cool?
Or would I end up having massive end problems without the end alpha?(the plan, btw, is to be plant/thermal/fire just because this is like the first toon I've ever had where I can justify that specific APP for thematic reasons, in addition to general 'badassery')

Oedipus_Tex · 09-12-2011 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrokenFace

hmm. would tough/weave provide enough defense to noticably matter?
I'm not rocking a /kin secondary, so I don't need tactics, I'm rocking fire, so I'm...burny, and my shield looks cool?
Or would I end up having massive end problems without the end alpha?

My general rule is that if you can get around 30 points in a defense its worth it. Less than that is iffy for me. 45 is my usual cap for any particular defense (I usually halt at slightly above about 44% though). Some people will only build defense if they can cap it but I find 30 to be noticeable and much better than 0.

Local_Man · 09-12-2011 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrokenFace

hmm. would tough/weave provide enough defense to noticably matter?
I'm not rocking a /kin secondary, so I don't need tactics, I'm rocking fire, so I'm...burny, and my shield looks cool?
Or would I end up having massive end problems without the end alpha?(the plan, btw, is to be plant/thermal/fire just because this is like the first toon I've ever had where I can justify that specific APP for thematic reasons, in addition to general 'badassery')

As Tex said, there are varying opinions on the need for Defense. None of my controllers are built for high defense, as I usually focus more on Recharge to make me a better controller. But some of them do have an OK amount of S/L Defense starting with one of the S/L defense armors available from APP/PPP powersets. Your secondary is based upon Resistance, so stacking more Resistance may provide better benefit.

When looking at Pool Powers like Leadership or Fighting, a key question is whether the cost (what you are giving up in terms of power choices or slots) is worth the benefits (the small amount of added Defense you may be getting and how much it will really help you). Even situational powers like Spore Burst or Spirit Tree may provide more benefit than Weave, and certainly provide more benefit than Boxing.

If you build for high recharge, do you really need all that much Defense? How much are you able to control and how much damage do you take that can't be handled by your self-healing? The answer to that depends a lot on your playstyle. To me, the key for a Plant controller is to get Seeds of Confusion and Creepers up as often as possible, so Recharge is important. But if you tend to fire off Roots a lot and get a lot of return fire, then Ranged Defense may be more important.

Once you have an answer to that question, then you need to decide where your focus will be on IO sets: for Ranged Damage powers (like Entangle), you could go with Decimation for Recharge, or Thunderstrike for Ranged Defense.

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MentalMaden · 09-12-2011 06:38 AM

The goal of a controller should be +recharge, +end and +recovery. Defense, while nice is more of a cute trick/added bonus than a "need". Your ability to control is your 'defense'.

@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff

Scorcharina · 09-12-2011 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MentalMaden

The goal of a controller should be +recharge, +end and +recovery. Defense, while nice is more of a cute trick/added bonus than a "need". Your ability to control is your 'defense'.

I agree with MM...I go for +recharge as the first line for any troller and usually the +recovery gets added based on the sets required for recharge. Although, for my /rads I tend to push for more +recovery and +end.

Deacon_NA · 09-12-2011 10:18 AM

Before dismissing +Defense, in the game's current state many tfs are speed runs and in the incarnate trials, there are simply too many mobs for you to control. The sentiment that "my control is my defense" simply doesn't work on a speed ITF (or LRSF, STF, etc), unless you are well equipped with the right inspirations. Anyway, +Def and +Rch are not mutually exclusive, since you can slot LOTGs in the power selections that give +Def. The troller build I respecced into has 45% s/l def and 177% recharge. That's having it all, if I may say so. Since you're going for the Fire Shield, I wouldn't worry about building too much def this time around, but I did feel compelled to offer a counter to "controllers shouldn't build defense".

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MentalMaden · 09-12-2011 10:45 AM

Nobody said you "shouldn't build for defense" I merely said that recharge, end and recovery are priorities and defense should be treated as an added bonus. And I've had plenty of controllers on speed TFs without softcapping or defense focused builds.

@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff

Call Me Awesome · 09-12-2011 11:59 AM

In my opinion your build goal really depends on your powersets. As an example an Illusion 'troller will want to get as much recharge as possible so that PA will be available as much as possible... since the Illusionist will tend to be at range and have PA to handle aggro he has less need for defense. On the other hand a Fire/Rad controller will spend most of his time in melee, AND he's going to be running some very high end toggles. For him recharge is less important than endurance and defense. That shouldn't be taken to mean "ignore recharge bonuses"... just that a Fire/Rad has a higher priority for other bonuses.

Play your character and as you level up evaluate your needs. Do you have a game changing power on a long recharge you want available all the time (for example PA)? Build for recharge as your primary goal. Do you go through massive amounts of endurance? Build for endurance and recovery as your primary goal. Do you spend a lot of time with significant aggro on you? Defense may be what you need the most.

It's always hard to argue with +recharge on nearly any character but you need to decide what would help your particular character the most. On many controllers that really is +recharge but there are always exceptions to the rule.

As I mentioned, play the character and ask yourself what your biggest needs are, then look for IO bonuses to fill those needs. You do need to beware of the trap of seeking bonuses without concern for enhancing your powers though... do not neglect the primary functionality of your powers by tossing in IO sets that give you poor enhancement. An example of that would be using a sleep set in Blind... yes the power accepts them but it's primary purpose is a hold, it's secondary purpose is damage and it only has a chance to sleep a nearby mob to your target making that worthless to enhance.

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plainguy · 09-12-2011 12:21 PM

* /em Points down at Sig. *

Everyone has posted some good advice. But I think you need to understand why those numbers are important and how the game works behind the scenes.

Its also important when someone comes here and post misinformation. I cannot tell you how many times someone comes to the forums posting some crazy build and then tells you how they soloed 12 AVs and 3 GMs all at the same time with just Caltrops.

Understanding the numbers will allow you to see the math inside the builds and make an educated choice for yourself.

As far as the IOs go. It's going to be tough at first since your not familiar with all the IOs but eventually you will start to know I am looking for Range defense and I have a stun power, which set is that. Or I need to slot this melee power to get recharge. Again that will come over time.

The great thing is the wheel has already been invented here. You are not going to discover that secret build that no one else ever thought about making. For the most part your build for your AT and powers will look pretty like another players build minus a few powers here or there depending on your goals.

As an example if your looking for defenses, you are pretty much keyed into going a particular direction and picking up certain powers. If your looking for recharge again your keyed into a certain direction and powers.

Also as a controller you cannot expect for example to get defense cap and high dps. Its just not going to happen.

Again another thing you need to understand some powers just have better IO options then other powers. For example Traps very easy to obtain full positional defense cap ( I know not a controller power choice ). But on the flip side trying to get Range cap on a device Blaster is extremely limited and your pretty much pigeon holed into 1 direction. So if I meet another device blaster that said they were defense range capped then I know pretty much a large core of there power choices, because they will be the same as mine for my Device Range cap blaster.

Also the bonuses from IO sets offer other things like duration. So a power that hold might start off holding for 12 seconds but after it is all said and done with all your IO slotting you might have kicked up that hold duration to 20 or 30 seconds. But the recharge might only be 11 seconds. So now you literally have a power that will last longer then the recharge. So you can hold a NPC indefinitely.

As others have mentioned these are the things you need to consider when creating your controller.

Another thing you need to understand why -Tohit Debuff is is helpful but it is not as good as defenses. Though they are pretty much calculated the same way. The short simple answer is -Tohit Debuff can be resisted by mobs.

Hope this helps out

1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

Severe · 09-12-2011 01:12 PM