My experiences lvling a ice/cold corr and a cold/ice defender, taught me one thing, the Corruptor equivalent is always the better solo AT and the more balanced AT on teams, and a better fit for leagues due to them scaling better on higher team sizes.
There are only 3 key differences between them that made all the difference:
1. You get your stronger blasts sooner, which speeds things along immensely and helps you take down bosses/EBs without taking dirtnaps.
2. Scourge tears bosses/EBs apart.
3. higher base damage and higher damage cap, also more consistency in damage between soloed and teamed.
The Support powers though function pretty much identical on both sides despite higher values on defenders. I never came across a situation where I felt that the higher defender values offered more survivability than I would experience on a Corr.
Of course, lvling any Dual Pistols, Archery, or Assault Rifle character is going to be more tedious than other blast sets because they have lower damage early on and are heavy on the lethal/smash damage. I doubt you'll have that problem with beam rifle though.
Corruptor it is 
Thank you!
I'd say that your opinion of Corrs was a little off base. Your one bad experience isn't one that is normally reflective of Corrs as a whole.
That said, I'd say the choice between them is going to be a tossup. It largely depends on your personality and play style.
The way I'd decide is to ask yourself, are you a Time Manipulator, who has a beam rifle, or are you a Beam Rifleman, who has some ability to manipulate time. If the former, go defender. If the latter, go with Corrupter. You'll get the powers that are more key to your concept a lot sooner that way.
Once you're in your 40s, the differences are negligible, and really come down to preference and build. Not knowing your build or preferences, it'd call it a wash at 40+.
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That's it ?|
Originally Posted by Triomphe
Corruptor it is
Thank you! |
Wow Turbo_Ski you should be a motivational speaker.
But for just general comment for others. I have DP Kin corruptor which has no issue. Or at least I can say is not horrendous and can solo on a decent setting of 2/8 - 3/8.
I always feel if your having trouble post a build and have others look at it.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
I think people are understating the differences between the two, and how viable both can be. Defenders get notably better buff/debuff values than corruptors, getting the best in the game, with their blasts filling an appropriately secondary role, adding some extra damage but never being the focal point of the character.
Corruptors, however, deal damage first, and buff/debuff second, they do a lot of damage, and their support abilities while good, are not the equivalent of a defenders.
I'd agree that corruptors generally solo better(Most villain classes where designed to solo better than their hero counterparts), but on a large well rounded team a defender can be more useful. The bigger you're team is, the more benefit you get from all those powerful support abilities, and the less you're individual damage matters.
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The margin between support values is a lot smaller than the margin between damage values. There are exceptions of course like Kin and Rad where the values are tweaked up to higher than they normally would be for defenders, but for the most part the difference is miniscule overall on the support side.|
Originally Posted by TheOOB
I think people are understating the differences between the two, and how viable both can be. Defenders get notably better buff/debuff values than corruptors, getting the best in the game, with their blasts filling an appropriately secondary role, adding some extra damage but never being the focal point of the character.
Corruptors, however, deal damage first, and buff/debuff second, they do a lot of damage, and their support abilities while good, are not the equivalent of a defenders. I'd agree that corruptors generally solo better(Most villain classes where designed to solo better than their hero counterparts), but on a large well rounded team a defender can be more useful. The bigger you're team is, the more benefit you get from all those powerful support abilities, and the less you're individual damage matters. |
It really comes down to the order you take your powers and whether you like /Pain or /Empathy for most I would assume. End game though, Corruptors > Defenders easily since balanced builds always do better in the late game, since most support values simply cap out too early and it's everywhere in the 40-50 range.
Okay, normally the answer is Corruptor.
But in the case of severely late-blooming buff/debuff sets like Time Manipulation, Defenders do have that edge of being able to access powers at lower levels. Specifically, Farsight at 18 instead of 28. Going Corruptor means ten more levels of your buff/debuff set doing roughly zilch for you, and problems exemplaring below 23. This may or may not be worth the tradeoff of extra damage output.
But if you only care about level 50 performance, then yeah, I'm with Turbo, the answer's definitely Corruptor.
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It's not the buff/debuff values that contribute to the difference between defender and corruptor survivability. It's the modifiers on their actual personal survivability powers, and defenders have the same modifiers as tanks.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
I never came across a situation where I felt that the higher defender values offered more survivability than I would experience on a Corr.
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Defenders do have a specific advantage they don't normally get with other buff sets. Due to the fact that Power Boost/PBU is better on defenders than it is on corruptors, a defender will end up with significantly better defense numbers if it goes for the PB/PBU+Far Sight route.
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This.|
Originally Posted by Garent
It's not the buff/debuff values that contribute to the difference between defender and corruptor survivability. It's the modifiers on their actual personal survivability powers, and defenders have the same modifiers as tanks.
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I played a Beam/Time rupter and a Time/Beam fender in beta to see which i thought would be better in the long run for me. I pretty much came up with rupter like the rest.
The playstyle will be a little less tank and a little more blaster as your defensive numbers won't be fantastic till IOing em. The key is to remember your HoTs and your debuff toggle.
My opinion is only for Beam/Time as I'm prolly gonna roll a Time/Ice/Dark fender. It will be a little off for damage on AVs but for everything else, it should be a Blastankfender... or so I hope.
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I'm going to have to say you're dead wrong. It's true that corruptors do a good deal more damage than defenders, and the percentage difference may be bigger for damage than it is for buff/debuff, but corruptors are not always the better option, and personally I think the order of power selection is one of the least important choices to base you're character on.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
The margin between support values is a lot smaller than the margin between damage values. There are exceptions of course like Kin and Rad where the values are tweaked up to higher than they normally would be for defenders, but for the most part the difference is miniscule overall on the support side.
It really comes down to the order you take your powers and whether you like /Pain or /Empathy for most I would assume. End game though, Corruptors > Defenders easily since balanced builds always do better in the late game, since most support values simply cap out too early and it's everywhere in the 40-50 range. |
The fact is, the larger the team is, the less the damage boost corruptors get matters, as the damage of you're team goes up, the extra damage is just less and less of a percentage of the whole.
That said, the opposite is true of buff/debuff values, the larger you're team the greater benefit the change in buff/debuff values is, as there are more teammates to take advantage of it. There is also other aspects to consider, such as how busy the set it. With sets like dark miasma, you tend to be very busy using them, especially in larger teams, that you don't always have time to make effective uses of you're blasts, which means having better blasts is less important than making the abilities you are using better.
I'm not saying corruptors are not great, but I'm saying that both archtypes have their purpose.
So once again, the choice is, do yo want to be a ranged combatant who can buff and debuff, or do you want to be a buff/debuffer who has some ranged attacks.
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You're right that turboski is dead wrong. S/he happens to be focusing on a case (Cold Dom) where Sleet has the same value across the ATs. When -res debuffs with Defender values stack up, TEAM damage goes up dramatically. | I'm going to have to say you're dead wrong. It's true that corruptors do a good deal more damage than defenders, and the percentage difference may be bigger for damage than it is for buff/debuff, but corruptors are not always the better option, and personally I think the order of power selection is one of the least important choices to base you're character on. |
I normally shy away from Def vs Corr debates because I think they're pretty balanced and choosing one over the other has plusse and minuses to consider. However I do feel compelled to step in when someone tries to unequivocally state "the Corruptor equivalent is always the better solo AT and the more balanced AT on teams, and a better fit for leagues due to them scaling better on higher team sizes." That's just wrong.
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Well for Time Manipulation, the Defender will be safer. Higher Defenser numbers, higher -toHit, and higher -DMG.
Time Manipulation for Defenders also has better -Resist, while the -Regen was the same for all of them.
At least last time I can swear that was the case last time I checked. Now mind you it wasn't some big amount of difference.
Solo wise, it may just be enough to make up for Corr's Scourge.
Depending on Defender's Fire Blast numbers, if I was going to go with Fire Blast with my Time Manipulation, I'd possibly choose Defender.
I can settle with waiting till level 28 for Blaze, while I have no interrest in the Snipe, and I can wait on the Nuke (if I took it).
Dual Pistols (and likely all the weapon sets) I want the Tier 9 ASAP
So getting the Time Powers sooner and the higher numbers would likely be my way to go, if I went Fire Blast.
Sonic Blast, I'd go defender as well. Higher -Resist in the blast, I get all the blasts I really care about getting by level 16.
There are quite a few differences in powerset pairings to have me decide which to go with.
If I wanted to go Radiation Blast, I'd choose Corr because of how the powers are ordered.
Basically, waiting to level 28 isn't two bad. Waiting to lvl 35/38 on attacks is.
Though I have to wonder, didn't Turbo_Ski make the ride on her Cold/Ice Defender before the new vigilance buff? Might be a different ride solo for her depending on when she was created (and I don't recall if Cold/Ice was ported before or after the vigilance buff).
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Go back and read the post he was responding to, and you would clearly see I mention exceptions like Kin and Rad having higher values that aren't calculated by the support modifier like shields and benumb are.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
You're right that turboski is dead wrong. S/he happens to be focusing on a case (Cold Dom) where Sleet has the same value across the ATs. When -res debuffs with Defender values stack up, TEAM damage goes up dramatically.
I normally shy away from Def vs Corr debates because I think they're pretty balanced and choosing one over the other has plusse and minuses to consider. However I do feel compelled to step in when someone tries to unequivocally state "the Corruptor equivalent is always the better solo AT and the more balanced AT on teams, and a better fit for leagues due to them scaling better on higher team sizes." That's just wrong. |
Ice/Cold and Cold/Ice isn't the only corr and def build I've played into the 40s either, I've also done varations of Rad, Kin, Dark, Thermal, and TA and pretty much comes out to be a pretty miniscule difference on the support overall. Rad and Kin are the only sets I felt like I could match corruptor damage because of the higher than norm values.
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Pretty much all of this is feelings and opinions anyway.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Rad and Kin are the only sets I felt like I could match corruptor damage because of the higher than norm values.
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But it's just about damage, it's about slows and tohit debuffs ruining you're enemies ability to fights, shields and healing abilities to keep you're allies alive. Even solo many defender builds are safer, if slower, than corrupter builds and in some cases defenders can get close to or even exceed a corruptors damage, and on large teams there is rarely any contest.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Go back and read the post he was responding to, and you would clearly see I mention exceptions like Kin and Rad having higher values that aren't calculated by the support modifier like shields and benumb are.
Ice/Cold and Cold/Ice isn't the only corr and def build I've played into the 40s either, I've also done varations of Rad, Kin, Dark, Thermal, and TA and pretty much comes out to be a pretty miniscule difference on the support overall. Rad and Kin are the only sets I felt like I could match corruptor damage because of the higher than norm values. |
Cor and Def values are the same for buffs, they are only different for debuffs and healing.
Both sets get a 30 and 50 + rech and +25% damage.
Defenders get a higher value on the debuffs
and controllers get a higher value on slows and holds.
For time manipulation I would say it benefits cor's and controllers a bit more than defenders.
So much of Time's power is in chronoshift where the values are the same. Then you get the extra damage to boot.
For a set that is very very heavily debuff based, like dark or TA defender wins.
That being said there really isnt that big a difference.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
I had a question, looking at the character creation screen, Chrono shift for Defenders shows an 8 minute+ recharge, while Corruptors and Controllers show a 6 minute recharge. Is this just a bug in the real numbers window?
Im sure its a bug, either in the display or the power, either way it will get fixed eventually I wouldnt let this dissuade you from a defender.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Though I'm still standing by Corruptor, I thought of another Defender advantage: you get to skip Time Crawl if you don't want it.
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Time Crawl is kinda suckie, and the Delayed gimmick isn't all that, but still, that's the only real -Regen you have.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Though I'm still standing by Corruptor, I thought of another Defender advantage: you get to skip Time Crawl if you don't want it.
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Nitpick: the difference in buff/debuff values (specifically, those that use AT modifiers) is larger than the difference in (solo) damage, and there is no way you'll convince me that in every case the Corruptor is the better option for anything other than power order. It's usually 20-25% difference in the buff/debuff values, and the base damage difference is just over 15% before any low-team-size Vigilance buff or Scourge kicks in.
The difference in solo damage is pretty much what Scourge contributes, since at the mob's full hit points and assuming SO slotting (it gets better for the Defender at lower damage slotting numbers) the same blast from either will do the same damage. And Scourge doesn't matter for a guaranteed half of the mob's hit points, and probably not after that either until you get to the last 25%. In the meantime, the Defender has larger -resistance and +damage values.
And some Defender combinations do more damage - even on teams - than the Corruptor equivalent, where Scourge has to try to catch up on mobs with lots of hit points. For example, Sonic Blast is almost always better on a Defender due to the stacked -resistance. Sure, if you do nothing but fight AVs all day long the Corruptor will have some advantage, but not in most normal gameplay.
What the Corruptor offers is fairly consistent damage - they don't have a buff that goes away when you add team members - with slightly more hit points, in exchange for buff and debuff values that are usually around 25% lower. For the record, I usually make Corruptors myself. But some Defenders will outperform the equivalent Corruptor - probably not the ones that use the same pseudopets for debuffing, though.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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And a corruptor can skip pistols.|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Though I'm still standing by Corruptor, I thought of another Defender advantage: you get to skip Time Crawl if you don't want it.
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I actually think time crawl is good. -Regen is always useful, and it provides a notable recharge debuff, and it lets you hold bosses, which is something some controllers have trouble doing.
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I would posit that any Controller who has trouble holding a boss is so grossly incompetent that they would have similar trouble while playing a /Time Corruptor. Using two powers on the same target to hold a boss is still two powers to hold a boss. If you're going to say the Corruptor has the advantage there, then you may as well talk about how much better Ice Blasters are than Controllers because they've been able do the same thing for years.|
Originally Posted by TheOOB
And a corruptor can skip pistols.
I actually think time crawl is good. -Regen is always useful, and it provides a notable recharge debuff, and it lets you hold bosses, which is something some controllers have trouble doing. |
Corruptors are tied at dead last for the shortest duration for holds in the game, they have absolutely no advantage over Controllers in that regard that another AT wouldn't be able to do as well or better. And the Controller could take /Time and stack holds which would last longer - with or without Time Crawl.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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So with the release of Freedom/Issue 21 on the near horizon I am planning to make a Time traveler but I need to make one important decision. I want to make either a Time/Beam Defender or a Beam/Time Corruptor. Up to this point I've denounced playing a Corruptor because I had a horrible experience with a DP/Kin. I hated him because he couldn't solo the easiest missions and I disliked his damage output. So the key here is are my perceptions of Corruptors wrong? Was it that my IO build did not translate well into the DP/Kin corruptor, or was I expecting too much when I wanted to solo some content with him.
If I want to have the ability to solo at at least the default settings, deal out a good amount of damage in teams and solo. Which AT will suit me better with the Time Manipulation and Beam Rifle sets? (Note: I don't solely solo, just when teams a scarce or when I want to immerse myself in the story of the mission arc)