Defender or Corruptor?

This is incorrect.

higher damage modifier has a way bigger impact than higher support modifier. Just ask yourself how many times you activate a support power versus activating an attack power? Probably looking at 5 damage power activations for every single support power activation in an attack cycle. Point is comparing raw modifier percents between the two ATs doesn't mean anything, unless we're talking very specific power comparisons.

Anyway, allow me to elaborate more on my "Always" statement. Early game corruptors trump still for the single reason of power order picks. Blast sets are consistent, you can reliably get your core powers well before 20. The same does not hold true for a good majority of support sets, I've never heard of a blast set labeled as a late bloomer as support sets regularly are called. Also damage pretty much trumps everything in this game in usefulness since there is never a situation where damage isn't useful. There are variety of support powers that simply are mediocre or totally ineffective against certain enemies, slows for example have zero effect on War Wolves. Likewise -Tohit/+Def solo are very weak solo in the early game since you need a lot of it to see impact. Again blast sets are consistent, support sets aren't.

Mid-game really depends on the build, though most defenders won't see the same damage output as corruptors solo for a good 10 levels or so because of how late they get their strong single target blasts. For the most part they are pretty even in usefulness like all ATs in the 25-40 range.

Post-40 Corruptors and Defenders have all the same tools, every AT is getting Epic pools to round out their weaknesses. Solo against minions and lts. feels about the same, the Corruptors pull way ahead though against boss and above because of scourge and higher damage caps (which is easy to with 20 inspiration slots available...). Support however doesn't have any AT specific caps, it simply caps out at the same values, and it doesn't help that it is very common both in temp buffs and epic/pool powers. You quickly get to the point on teams where the Corruptor is pulling out the same effective support job as the defender with more damage in addition. Because of this the corruptor is better in the late-game, you have a lot more room to grow and that matters a lot when you get into larger teams like Leagues.

So if Corruptors are better for 2/3rd of the game and only equal with defenders 1/3rd of the game, that still sounds like Corruptors are always a better choice to me.

+infinity.

How many of those attack powers you're activating so much more often trigger Scourge? Because those are the only ones doing more damage than the Defender if you're soloing.

The Vigilance changes rather deliberately erased most of the benefit of the higher Corruptor damage scale when both are solo. Corruptors still do slightly more damage due to Scourge, plus in many situations you can leverage the higher scale (and more specifically the higher damage cap) to lengthen the lead, but the standard ED-capped SO slotting leaves both doing roughly the same damage for the first 50-75% of the fight.

Or, say you're using a scale 1 attack (like Ice Bolt).
Solo Defender: 0.65 (at mod) * 1.0 (attack scale) * (1.0 base + 0.95 slotting + 0.3 solo vig buff) = 1.4625 scale damage
Corruptor: 0.75 (at mod) * 1.0 (attack scale) * (1.0 base + 0.95 slotting) = 1.4625

So let's throw in the effect of those buffs and debuffs... how about a Rad with AM running and using EF?
Defender: 0.65 * 1.0 * (1.0 + 0.95 + 0.3 + 0.25 AM) * 1.3 (res debuff) = 2.1125
Corruptor: 0.75 * 1.0 * (1.0 + 0.95 + 0.2 AM) * 1.225 = 1.9753125

In this case, most of the time the Defender is doing more damage, using an AoE toggle debuff and self +damage powers.

It's not as cut-and-dried as people try to make it, where "Corruptor = more damage". As for power selection order, that makes some difference. But not in a large number of sets, and in many cases you'd rather have the buff/debuff power earlier.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Which deals more damage, Ice/Rad Corr doing Ice Bolt->Ice Blast->Bitter Ice Blast-> or a Rad/Ice defender doing Ice Bolt->Ice Blast? The Corruptor because they get BIB WAY sooner.

And when you get past level 31? Or do you never play anyone past that level? Bitter Ice Blast shows up all of 10 levels later for a Defender, which is what... two task forces or twenty minutes in AE?

I did state that power order is one of the differences, but it's not as simple as "the Corruptor always has the advantage" there, either. It happens to be that way for Ice, Rad, and Fire Blast, which get their third hard-hitting attack much later. But the Defender is also going to get some powers much faster as well: do you really enjoy waiting until level 35 for Sleet, and 38 for Melt Armor?

Even given that, for many blast sets the "heavy hitter" attack is only a handful of levels difference and the order would make little difference in when you get it slotted up. As an example, Sonic Blast is almost always skewed drastically in the Defender's favor simply because Shout is available early if you want it; Energy Blast is set up the same way.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

That's true.

On the other hand, once you are softcapped, you are softcapped.

And no Time Corrutper will be having all that much difficulty softcapping.

For teams/leagues, it will come down to a variable of who is or is not IOd
and how many other sources of +DEF are available.

I'm of the opinion that generally even most leagues on iTrials have DEF overflow.


As for the PB/Farsight combo, it's tempting but until I see it in mids I'm not sure I really want to hassle and make sure I cast them both together just to get to softcap - since it shouldn't be all that difficult to softcap anyway without it. (Which will leave me free to go Mu instead, for SM/L/Ene Resistance, to stack with Tough, as well as 1 or 2 End management tools if I feel I need them.)

I'll agree with you there. I'm not sure I really want to bother with that combo of PBU + Farsight either.

However, I did want Temp Inc toggle for concept, but then Leviathan Mastery's shield works for concept too (the added cold resist)...but it does mean I have to do the whole alignment circle, but then I dont have a power prequisite either for the shield toggle.

God, can we not do this conversation again? I'm really tired of all the ridiculous edge cases that get brought up as evidence.

So change it to Cold/Ice combo...getting Sleet sooner and Benumb sooner doesn't have a factor in that single target damage?

For damage comparison's I'd say go with both at lvl 50 with the same builds with as little variance as possible (ie...once you get the defense for softcap, you work on the next set bonus goal).

Sleet doesn't make not having BIB for 10 levels any less painful I assure you. Also benumb doesn't increase damage in any fashion.

at 50, Corruptors outclass defenders as I've already mentioned previously in the thread.

I admit to not having an Ice/Cold Corr, but I do have a Cold/Ice Defender (my /Cold Corr I went with Fire/).

Defender is just more survivable.

Benumb hits hard targets for more -DMG. The defense buffs to self are higher.

And going by mids...adding in assault to the mix, helps put the Defender a bit more damage than a Corr (not counting Scourge on hard targets), while Ice Storm gets a significant amount of additional damage on the Defender (is this a bug with MIDS or how it is?)

Now I'm sure scourge will make a difference on the ST damage output, but Defender will still have the better survival...though...why Sleet doesn't do more -resist for the defender I don't know.

Time Manip has a difference between Corr/Defender's -Resist...but Cold and Dark don't seem to.

But yes, on a team a Corr will get those attacks faster, but really...so? Lvl 18 versus lvl 28. It's pretty easy and quick to get to lvl 28.

Though, if you want to use Blizzard sooner, I could see wanting to go Corr. getting to 38 can drag for some people, never mind the next two levels slotting it up.

Ice Storm does the same base damage for Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors. For Blasters and Defenders it's because it uses the exact same pseudopet, but the Corruptor version had Scourge added and does more damage when mobs get low on hit points due to that. If Mid's is showing significantly higher damage on the Defender it's probably either a bug or one has something turned on that the other doesn't (alpha musculature?).

Tar Patch and Sleet also use pseudopets, thus ignoring AT modifiers unless the pet is specifically changed to account for them. Defenders and Corruptors share Tar Patch, and the Defender pseudopet for Sleet didn't get the extra -defense and -resistance that it should have when it was proliferated. Controllers and Dominators share the Defender pet for Sleet.

Which was kindof my whole point - it depends on your playstyle preferences and what you want out of the character; even then the powerset combination you're looking at can still swing things one side or the other.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Easier will make it a nice option for some players.

I don't have a build budget limit, so it's not really a factor.


That's true, I still need mids to play around but I don't think I'll have a hard time getting there regardless.



I don't have a single Corr at the moment that isn't both Softcapped to SM/L with Energy not far behind, while also having 170-190%+ rech depending.

I agree though in general, that it will be the easier way to go - much as Tankers are the easier way to go for, well, Tanking.

However with a large enough budget, that can all be covered to a sufficient enough level to let the higher offensive advantage really shine.



I went Corr because Rain of Scourging Fire is a wicked mistress that will not be denied.

Does saying it repeatedly make it less wrong?

The only real answer is that it depends on a set-by-set basis and personal preference.

Elec is lol, anything's better than /Elec. It's bad enough on Blasters, on Defenders it looks like you're tickling mobs.