Quote:
This. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
You cannot let misinformation like that stand without rebuttal. For every poster there are likely ten lurkers, and you risk them learning incorrect things about the game.
|
Saying brutes are unequivocally, indisputably better in any and all situations is misinformation. There are plenty of situations in which a scrapper would be the better choice. In any situation that has overwhelming AoE from the rest of the team, the scrapper would be better, simply because nothing is going to live long enough to allow the brute to build any fury at all. And there are others.
Both ATs are better in different situations. Actually, as far as balance between ATs is concerned, brutes and scrappers are VERY well balanced against each other. Neither is so much better than the other in a given area that the choice is simple. Any time I go to create a melee character, I weigh the advantages and disadvantage of each set as used by each AT.
If brutes being better were a "fact", I would have nothing BUT brutes. Since my brute/scrapper ratio is about 50/50 it's not so clearly a "fact" that brutes are better.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
When i get another spare 2bn ill make a DM/SD...scrapper....because they are awesome
[Union Chat]Sebaddon: If you want to, we will, if you think it's weird, no, that's damz, not us.
[Union Chat]Damz: hey cyber, i am your naked pope for the evening, please confess to me my child
I'm thinking about making a new scrapper, it will be street justice and some secondary when freedom comes out. Has anyone played street justice on beta yet? Any good?
Quote:
Yes, seriously.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Seriously?
|
Just because the scrapper forum has some ridiculous obsession with DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE does not mean that damage is the only performance criterion for a toon.
Otherwise, who'd play tanks?
(Luv me some tanks.)I rank 4 main areas: Offense, defense, utility, movement. Given the new rankings on beta, the devs see things with some similarity.
On my four criteria, brutes do far better than scrappers.
On offense, brutes and scrappers are on near-parity.
On defense, brutes are much better. (MUCH.)
On utility, brutes are considerably better. More taunt auras, for one.
On movement, brutes are near-parity, only stone armor really hurting them.
You can say the sky ain't blue all you want: Brutes are still better.
What exactly do your criteria mean when generalized over an archetype? Brutes may have worse "movement" because one brute set includes movement debuffs? Does that mean someone who plays a different brute set will feel part of that debuff for being in the same archetype?
The "dev rankings" as you call them on the character creation screen mean nothing. They're an attempt to throw together a slightly more accurate set of descriptions than existed before. They are purely descriptive, not at all prescriptive. The only way to compare brutes and scrappers is to compare specific power sets or combinations thereof. When one does that, a more complex picture emerges than when one simply makes up a bunch of generalized rankings that more closely resemble an internet top 10 list than any attempt at qualitative analysis.
I think this is where people disagree with you.
Quote:
Okay... I reckon I'll chime in.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
On my four criteria, brutes do far better than scrappers.
On offense, brutes and scrappers are on near-parity. On defense, brutes are much better. (MUCH.) On utility, brutes are considerably better. More taunt auras, for one. On movement, brutes are near-parity, only stone armor really hurting them. You can say the sky ain't blue all you want: Brutes are still better. |
I am not an uber player. I can play most anything decently, but for the most part, I am a melee player. For me, that means Tanker, Scrapper, Brute, Stalker, Widow, Bane. I am also a "get in there and mix it up" player, so we now may remove Stalker from the above list. I have taken every single one of the remaining ATs to 50.
Out of the 19 50s I have (which is FAR less than some of you, and more than others [I suffer from 'alt-itis']), 3 are tankers, 3 are scrappers, 2 are widows, 1 is a bane and 5 are brutes. So, a vast majority of my 50s are melee toons. Of the brutes, I built many for concept rather than "I will deeestroy you now" (dark/shield, dark/fire, SS/SR, and the elec/elec all have storylines behind them). Only the SS/FA brute I built expressly to be a farmer has no real concept. He is a tool, to be used to get me stuff (inf, tickets, etc.) and he excels as a tool. The elec/SD scrapper I built is still one of the most fun guys I have, and he cuts through Rommie's troops like there is no tomorrow. I actually DO have a fire/fire scrapper at 50. It is an adorable little thing, and I don't even have it on my main screen for that server. I doubt I will pull it out more than every 30 days to get a new day job.
Brutes have their uses. My elec/elec is great for endgame content. He can solo the lab or warehouse on a Lambda (he seeks vengeance on those who tried to dismantle him), and that makes me happy. My Dark/Shield and my SS/SR brutes are refugees from Praetoria (one due to a magical war, and the other on the run from his unscrupulous boxing career).
My spines/dark scrapper can just sit in the middle of a mob and have things scream and bleed/soil themselves with fear/succumb to poison barbs and he has to do very little else.
Each has a purpose. Each has strengths. And, each would play slightly different as one or the other.
Play what you like. If you want to be a little hardier than a scrapper, be a brute. If you want to have a little more sustained damage without so much forward momentum, be a scrapper. Just have fun!
Quote:
I agree with this addendum to my post.
|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
You should include some stipulations about sets with pseudopets or built-in damage buffs providing more benefit to Scrappers than Brutes, such as Elec Melee (Lightning Rod), Kin Melee (Power Siphon), Dark Melee (Soul Drain), Dual Blades (Blinding Feint), and Shield (Against All Odds and Shield Charge).
Damage buff powers are largely desaturated on Brutes because so much of their total damage comes from Fury, their base values are fairly low. Pseudopets are strictly better on Scrappers because they have damage caps of 400%. I believe this even applies to Burn, but Fiery Aura being resist based doesn't do Scrappers any favors with that set. At the very least you should include an "if you want to play Shield Defense, go Scrapper" line, because that one stacks both mechanics against the Brute. |
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Quote:
I will say these things.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This.
Saying brutes are unequivocally, indisputably better in any and all situations is misinformation. There are plenty of situations in which a scrapper would be the better choice. In any situation that has overwhelming AoE from the rest of the team, the scrapper would be better, simply because nothing is going to live long enough to allow the brute to build any fury at all. And there are others. Both ATs are better in different situations. Actually, as far as balance between ATs is concerned, brutes and scrappers are VERY well balanced against each other. Neither is so much better than the other in a given area that the choice is simple. Any time I go to create a melee character, I weigh the advantages and disadvantage of each set as used by each AT. If brutes being better were a "fact", I would have nothing BUT brutes. Since my brute/scrapper ratio is about 50/50 it's not so clearly a "fact" that brutes are better. |
First, I don't play scrappers who don't have taunt auras anymore. Flat out the lack of a taunt aura is tremendously aggravating. I can't even tell you the annoyance of trying to finish my kill task for Freak Tanks on my MA/SR (I did that long ago in Crey's Folly when they were still worth XP to me) and have every... single... one run all over the map. I die a little inside every time I play my 50 Kat/Fire scrapper.
The extra hit points for Brutes is not something that is barely noticed. The difference is very noticeable. I think Regen Brutes, for example, will be so much better that scrappers that the extra damage won't be enough for me to stick with a scrapper Regen.
There are a lot of tasks where damage isn't the issue, it's extra survivability. In these instances the extra health and 90% resistant cap of the Brute is better than the extra damage. Particularly when you can make all the opponents use a damage type that is checked against your 90% stat. This also means that some of the tier 9 defenses are much better on a Brute and some buff situations on groups are much better with a Brute.
There are a lot of secondary damage sources that are affected by Fury and are flat out better on a Brute because of that.
On the other hand...
Shields, the best secondary in the game barring fire farms, is much better on a scrapper than a Brute. AAO makes too much of a difference, and the set has a damage aura. I'd be hard pressed to make a /SD Brute.
There are still tasks, like soloing GMs, where the damage will play a factor. If the scrapper can survive the situation then the damage output is needed.
If you can get the survival up to par on a scrapper and have a taunt aura why not go with the extra damage?
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
There is a post on the brute boards that shows numerical evidence that brutes outdamage scrappers, even if they have SD. He posts a number of attack chains and shows the totals, top 5 all being brutes. So, if they outdamage and out last scrappers, it goes to show that, for now, brutes are a stronger choice.
Quote:
Could someone provide a link to that thread?|
Originally Posted by Soopa
There is a post on the brute boards that shows numerical evidence that brutes outdamage scrappers, even if they have SD. He posts a number of attack chains and shows the totals, top 5 all being brutes. So, if they outdamage and out last scrappers, it goes to show that, for now, brutes are a stronger choice.
|
Thanks in advance!
Yeah this should be interesting
Quote:
Just wanted to chime in and say, Stalkers can "get in there and mix it up" |
Originally Posted by BeornAgain
Okay... I reckon I'll chime in.
I am not an uber player. I can play most anything decently, but for the most part, I am a melee player. For me, that means Tanker, Scrapper, Brute, Stalker, Widow, Bane. I am also a "get in there and mix it up" player, so we now may remove Stalker from the above list. I have taken every single one of the remaining ATs to 50. |
I have on all my stalkers (even if only one is 50). They are not hit and run specialists (well they can be if you choose to make them so, but that's just booooring 
)
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I had a longer post but the forum ate it |
Originally Posted by Soopa
There is a post on the brute boards that shows numerical evidence that brutes outdamage scrappers, even if they have SD. He posts a number of attack chains and shows the totals, top 5 all being brutes. So, if they outdamage and out last scrappers, it goes to show that, for now, brutes are a stronger choice.
|
. I believe the thread you are referring to was started in 2009 before the changes to fury.
I'll try to dig it up when I get home, but I'm sure it was fairly recent as the top one was dm/sd with gloom. But, until then, it may just be the imagination of an overtired brain.
Edit
You are correct oblivion, it was a resurrected post from 2009. Sorry for that all.
Quote:
Chocolate or Vanilla?
|
Originally Posted by Mint
I was doing some reading and read that Brutes have High damage and High defense, while Scrappers not so much as a brute. With that being said why would you make a scrapper over a brute, what advantage do you gain?
What can a scrapper do or do better than a brute? |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
Awww look's like sumone cought feeling's lol......
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
And really, that's only half the good of his post.
You cannot let misinformation like that stand without rebuttal. For every poster there are likely ten lurkers, and you risk them learning incorrect things about the game. The only necessary thing for the triumph of stupid, is for smart men to do nothing. |
Quote:
So you have come up with a set of arbitrary criteria, backed up only by your opinion on where ATs rank in each of these arbitrary categories that no one else uses but you and then proclaim, in nearly every thread that ever comes up on the subject, that your opinion on Brutes is a fact.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
I rank 4 main areas: Offense, defense, utility, movement. Given the new rankings on beta, the devs see things with some similarity.
On my four criteria, brutes do far better than scrappers. |
I'd cover why this is not only a mistake, but also a massive disservice to your fellow posters - but Werner already did a better job of covering it and nothing has changed since his post. You should feel obliged to reread it, since he was kind enough to post it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
On offense, brutes and scrappers are on near-parity.
|
Top end Scrapper builds have near-parity with Brute survivability as well as doing an amount of DPS that outstrips the equivalent Brute build (using shared powersets) by anywhere from 15-30%. You can read the Rikti pylon thread to see this.
Only a tiny handful of shared secondaries see the Brute gaining a significant advantage.
Of the rest of your criteria; one is totally irrelevant in this game, another has only one example and no others, and the remaining one isn't true to the extent that you think it is.
I find myself agreeing with most if not all of what Moonlighter says on this topic.
Scrapper. We got here first.
@False Fiction - Virtue / Defiant
Current projects - [Glaciologist - Ill/Cold Troller] [Cloudshaper - Storm/Dark Def] [Harald Wartooth - Elec/Psi Domi]
I tend to think of the difference in terms of...
1. Super Strength: If you want SS, there is only one choice.
2. Base Damage: Scrappers have higher base, so they benefit more from damage buffs and their pseudopets are better.
3. HP/Regen: Brutes have higher base HP and higher HP caps, so they benefit more from percentage-based HP buffs and Regen.
4. Taunt Auras: Brutes have them, Scrappers sometimes have them. If you want a particular secondary and demand a taunt aura, then you may have to go Brute.
5. Hard Targets: Fights against single hard targets (AVs, Pylons, etc.) generate less Fury, which can reduce the effectiveness of Brutes comparatively.
6. Farming: Brutes have higher resistance caps and benefit more from being at the aggro cap. Plus, taunt auras may come into play here.
7. Control Auras: Some sets have control auras (e.g. Dark & Ice), both of which can interfere with Fury and make them less viable for Brutes, if used.
Sets like Shield Defense and Dark Armor are notably better for Scrappers, while Willpower is notably better for Brutes. Regen will be better on Brutes and Ice will be better (and exclusive?) for Scrappers. I like Claws, DB, Elec and KM more on Scrappers due to the way base damage comes into play (and the faster recharge on Spin).
Quote:
I agree with all your points except these. The control auras are no more harmful to Fury than cycling Footstomp every time its up. Further, with the most recent Fury changes, I've been able to build and maintain the "maximum" Fury level by simply attacking the RWZ dummies. Taking attacks is the fast track to build your Fury, but that is by no means necessary to maintaining it.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
5. Hard Targets: Fights against single hard targets (AVs, Pylons, etc.) generate less Fury, which can reduce the effectiveness of Brutes comparatively.
... 7. Control Auras: Some sets have control auras (e.g. Dark & Ice), both of which can interfere with Fury and make them less viable for Brutes, if used. |
I'd like to add a few points to what you had as well.
8. Damage auras: These receive heavy benefit from Fury, especially considering the taunt effect to keep enemies in range. Scrapper damage auras will begin to edge away when consistent damage buffs are present, of course, such as with Claws (Follow UP) or Dark Melee (Soul Drain).
9. Not chasing a Fury bar: I believe there is some benefit to always dealing your maximum damage all the time, from the second you start fighting to the second you stop. There are also situations where Fury cannot be maintained, like the low level game where you need to rest more often, or in teams that spend very little time actually fighting mobs because of overwhelming AoE damage.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Surivival is binary. You don't get extra credit for living more easily... you do, however get more reward by killing faster.
In my opinion, scrappers kill faster and can live long enough. I feel no reason to reduce my damage output to get more survivabilty.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
Quote:
I strongly disagree. Survival of a single event may be binary, but survival over a series of events becomes a measurable statistic. No one survives everything all the time, not even my Dark Armor tank. If you can survive everything you fight all the time you fight it, that means you are not fighting at your full potential.|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Surivival is binary.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
In my opinion, scrappers kill faster and can live long enough. I feel no reason to reduce my damage output to get more survivabilty.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I'll get back to you on this one. When brutes get Broadsword I'm recreating my BS/DA scrapper as a brute (I'm not deleting the original, just making a new one) |
Originally Posted by streetlight
Sets like Shield Defense and Dark Armor are notably better for Scrappers |
I have a feeling if I recreate my exact build (positional soft-capped) the brute will prove superior. Dark Armor brutes get a taunt aura in Death Shroud, so I can skip OGloom and CoF and keep everything on me, that should help my AoE damage output (one of my scrapper's weak points)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
The breath might be wasted on the intended person, but the rest of us certainly appreciate the hell out of it.
You cannot let misinformation like that stand without rebuttal. For every poster there are likely ten lurkers, and you risk them learning incorrect things about the game.
The only necessary thing for the triumph of stupid, is for smart men to do nothing.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.