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You can assume their intention is to encourage a lot of people to play for free. But in order to do that, you ALSO have to assume their intention is to lose their jobs, since no revenue = no payroll. |
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
It is not the intention of the devs to encourage a lot of people to play for free. They can if they want to, but the *goal* is to have everyone either subscribed, or picking up items from the store to enhance their Premium play experience.
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Since they probably don't want to lose their jobs, they probably don't intend for everyone to play for free. This is evident by the fact that we don't get 100% of the game for free. If we got absolutely everything for free, I can't imagine too many people would keep giving them money.
It is also evident by the fact that they've come out and point blank SAID their goal is to have as many people subscribed as possible, and offering a free-play model is a better way to achieve that than an extremely limited free trial.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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You got it straight from the devs. Freedom doesn't mean Free to Play.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
One could go and dig up the various articles which we've (collective we meaning various representatives of Paragon Studios) been directly quoted as referring to our business model as "Hybrid".
In fact, one of the slogans we bandied about internally was "This is *not* free to play, this is Freedom." We have no control over what a media outlet chooses to label our new business model, and the term "Free2Play" is used to mean various different things in many different articles. I won't lie and say that we went out of our way to correct them, those words connect with some people on a certain level, however we don't refer to City of Heroes Freedom as a Free 2 Play game in our verbiage, because it isn't, it's Hybrid. You'll notice that when we speak publicly about Freedom, we chose our words wisely - "You can play for Free!", "Free Offering", "Free Players will have blah blah...". A "traditional" Free 2 Play game is just that...completely free, completely supported by MTX's. Games such as Maplestory are a good example. (and yes, I know I referenced another game, but I'm playing the parent card and saying do as I say, not as I do.  ). I hope that helps explain and clear up some confusion over terminology. |
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Originally Posted by JakHammer
It is the job of the merchant or service provider to get as much as possible from the consumer.
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Which Paragon Studios is doing by not giving you everything you want for free. Which you seem to expect them to. Yet you accuse US of being communists or something because we point out that you should expect to pay for the server farms, development time and bandwidth you consume and not get it all for free along with your gov't cheese.
Man if that isn't the height of hypocrisy and confusion, I don't know what is.
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[sarcasm]Isn't that what a lot of freedom has been anyways? Adding a lot of new code so that people have an option of paying less or nothing and still play?[/sarcasm]|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
Which would be extra work for the devs, to benefit customers who by definition aren't going to pay.
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Seriously, I get that argument. My only intention was just spitballing out ideas for options that may or may not happen. As with all ideas, some are good, some are bad, some are one or the other but only to some people. Personally, I'm planning on paying a subscription so I don't have to worry about stuff like this, and think that if IOs are really important to you, the $2 is not much to ask for playing the game.
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Originally Posted by gameboy1234
Whereas now you're completely screwed over if you can't pay because you can't play at all.
I'm still having trouble seeing how folks feel getting to play for FREE is screwing someone over. If your top toon(s) have all of their builds filled with pricey IOs that you don't want to rip out and replace with SOs, play some other character that still has an extra build to spare. |
You don't NEED IOs, but most characters are very very weak without some form of enhancements slotted. If they have a lot of IOs, they only way to get SOs into the powers is to dump the IOs, which is losing a lot for some IOs. Yes they can keep some, but not all. Since they probably won't have auction house access if they don't have IO access, they could be losing a ton of stuff that they earned before and not able to get back ever without spending a lot of money in game again.
Should they have to pay to get some features, yes, not having access is one thing. However making someone discard and stuff they earned to keep playing with the lower level stuff they don't have to pay for is another. My thought was allow them to get SOME benefit from slotted IOs, not all, but at least enough that they can still play the game like they have SOs in there instead of IOs without losing their IOs. That way if they decide to pay the $2 or subscribe again later on down the road, they can have the full power of those IOs back again.
Another option which may work is open up some more alt builds. While they'll have to pay to fill up the build with SOs, they won't have to sacrifice their current IOs to do it, and if they resubscribe or get the license again, they can switch back to their IO build.
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Much too strong.|
Originally Posted by AquaJAWS
In hindsight, 'screw over' was too strong of a phrase to use.
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| However, I can see the concern of some people with the IO situation, and how it could put off some returning players to not have their IOs after coming back to the game, |
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| Yes, there's a lot that could do that, but the IOs are something they could have had all along and did earn somehow before when they did pay and subscribe. |
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| I don't think its too game breaking or unreasonable for them to be able to access the ones that they do have slotted, at least partially, when not having them means they have to dump what they did earn previously to get working things now. |
1. Use your second build.
2. Play a new toon so you don't loose any already slotted IOs.
3. Hang out in AP and role play instead.
4. Play with friends who can buff you and don't mind your IO-less status.
Especially #2 above. Leveling new toons is half the fun in this game, why not just do that? You won't loose any IOs and you can enjoy all the new lower level content to boot.
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| Since they probably won't have auction house access |
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| if they don't have IO access, they could be losing a ton of stuff |
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Alt builds already exist in the game. They can simply use the first for IO's and the second for TO's, DO's, SO's, & HO's.
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Originally Posted by AquaJAWS
Another option which may work is open up some more alt builds. While they'll have to pay to fill up the build with SOs, they won't have to sacrifice their current IOs to do it, and if they resubscribe or get the license again, they can switch back to their IO build.
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Right, because not having money to spend on a video game automatically means the person in question is unemployed. |
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
if you have every slot filled and every build filled with tricked out IOs and can't afford $2 per month then yes: I have absolutely no sympathy for you or your screwed-up priorities. Get a job.
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Sorry, chief, but buying formula, diapers and food for my 11 month old son trumps ANY video game I could ever play. This game is the last luxury I've allowed myself in the midst of working 2 jobs and taking college courses, and it's the next thing to go if I get hit with another money crunch.
Did it occur to you that some people have to pay bills that total more than they make? And "live within your means" is a cop out response to that. 6 months or a year ago those people WERE living within their means and lost their job, leading to them having to accept a lower paying one. When "live within your means" equals "lose everything you've worked for for years" it's not a very fair thing to tell someone.
Some people genuinely CAN'T afford to spend $2 a month on a video game. Because other things they could spend that $2 a month on are more important than escapism.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yet you're spending ~$14 per month right now. I can tell because you require a subscription to post your screeds here.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Some people genuinely CAN'T afford to spend $2 a month on a video game. Because other things they could spend that $2 a month on are more important than escapism.
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Nevertheless, if you can't afford $2, then fine, but don't complain that you don't get any IOs. Just make do, ok?
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I don't think anyone on these forums falls into the can't afford the $2/month category simply because they are currently paying $15.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
Yet you're spending ~$14 per month right now. I can tell because you require a subscription to post your screeds here.
Nevertheless, if you can't afford $2, then fine, but don't complain that you don't get any IOs. Just make do, ok? |
I think people are just expressing concern for the future where players may bounce between subscribed and/or paying for the license and going FTP due to circumstances that may be similar to what Claws was describing, and suggesting ways for them 'make do' that is seems more fair than just saying that they either have to delete that character to make a new one in some of their few slots (remember even Premium players will have a more limited number of slots), throw away IOs they may have worked hard for in game, or struggle to play a character that is missing vital enhancements, or wait until they can afford the $2. Some of us would rather those people still be able to play somewhat effectively and have fun in the game than be hindered by their lack of money.
And the thing is in the eyes of the media, MMOs come in two flavors, subscription or free to play. I think it was Turbine that first introduced the hybrid tiered model and proved it successful enough that seemingly everybody is jumping on board.
At least our free to play tier isn't called "Scavenger" like the future FE tier system is called.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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On the plus side, if they make a point of only spending half or less the points they're getting while subscribed they should be able to continue using IOs as normal for months even if they do have to stop spending money on the game.|
Originally Posted by AquaJAWS
I don't think anyone on these forums falls into the can't afford the $2/month category simply because they are currently paying $15.
I think people are just expressing concern for the future where players may bounce between subscribed and/or paying for the license and going FTP due to circumstances that may be similar to what Claws was describing, and suggesting ways for them 'make do' that is seems more fair than just saying that they either have to delete that character to make a new one in some of their few slots (remember even Premium players will have a more limited number of slots), throw away IOs they may have worked hard for in game, or struggle to play a character that is missing vital enhancements, or wait until they can afford the $2. Some of us would rather those people still be able to play somewhat effectively and have fun in the game than be hindered by their lack of money. |
Those who come back expecting access to everything they used to have pay to use and now expect to get it all for free will possibly be disappointed, but access to most of it will still be very cheap. Far cheaper than it was before Freedom launched.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Yep, and the genius of it is that if you can level your free toons up to level 50 and play most of the content, then many people will get attached to those toons and want to make them incarnates, improve their builds with sets, etc.
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Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
No.
While interesting those are not the reasons for the change of model. The primary reason it to dangle a shiny lure out to get people to try the game. And if they don't subscribe then to lure them into buying things anyway from the Paragon Store. That is the primary reason for the change of model. It is all about adding new VIP accounts not about attracting and keeping Free or Premium accounts. |
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Originally Posted by PBAtty
Yep, and the genius of it is that if you can level your free toons up to level 50 and play most of the content, then many people will get attached to those toons and want to make them incarnates, improve their builds with sets, etc.
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I think it is, or should be, a tertiary goal just to get more folks playing. There more people are online, the more fun it is for everyone. The primary goal I'm sure is to get more VIP sign-ups. The secondary goal is to get those who don't want to be VIPs to buy stuff in the store.
Towards that end I support some changes that might make it easier for new folks to sign up and enjoy themselves. Global friend tells, for example, and a Freedom channel. Also I'm thinking that gifting items from the story, including the points/status you would have got from the purchase. That way, your friend can sign up, and you can send him 400 points so he won't be on a noob account anymore. That I think would be a huge deal for getting new blood in.
Where I draw the line is nerd rage like "free play screws me over" or nonsensical hyperbole like "my infant baby will have no formula to eat." That stuff is just beyond the pale.
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That is an excellent idea.
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Originally Posted by gameboy1234
Also I'm thinking that gifting items from the story, including the points/status you would have got from the purchase. That way, your friend can sign up, and you can send him 400 points so he won't be on a noob account anymore. That I think would be a huge deal for getting new blood in.
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Gifting points/items would most likely ended up with people selling it for money. And soon there would be endless spam selling points and store items from the game.
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LOL...why would someone buy Paragon Market items from someone random schmoe off the net, when they can buy it straight from the game, which comes with purchase security? Scammers are not stupid, they won't sell things for a loss. They'll continue to sell inf to stupid people with more money than sense, which cannot be purchased on the market. They'll continue to sell PLs to stupid people with more money than time, which cannot be purchased on the market. They won't purchase items on the market and then turn around to sell them, because there is no way to profit off that - you can't sell them for more than the store is selling them for, or people won't buy them....you can't sell them for less than the store is selling them for, or you are losing money.
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Originally Posted by Pancasila
Gifting points/items would most likely ended up with people selling it for money. And soon there would be endless spam selling points and store items from the game.
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Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Maybe because they live in South America and NCSoft has always given them a hard time with electronic purchases up to and including denying them the ability to make a purchase.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
LOL...why would someone buy Paragon Market items from someone random schmoe off the net, when they can buy it straight from the game, which comes with purchase security?
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Hardly what the person making the claim meant. "Endless spam" only pops up when there are significant potential buyers. A tiny, tiny portion of the player base does not make "endless spam" happen.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Maybe because they live in South America and NCSoft has always given them a hard time with electronic purchases up to and including denying them the ability to make a purchase.
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Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I thought it was obvious from what I quoted that I was referring to the first part of their post about people buying items and gifting them for real money, and not the spam itself. CoH has a bad rep in some parts of the world because players there frequently have to deal with third parties in order to make digital purchases. |
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Hardly what the person making the claim meant. "Endless spam" only pops up when there are significant potential buyers. A tiny, tiny portion of the player base does not make "endless spam" happen.
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And it's not hard to believe that someone who has had every legitimate option blocked by NCSoft, might be willing to pay a third party more money for something than it costs in the store because NCSoft is refusing to take their money.
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As translated by Arcanaville and made pretty by me:|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Bob
the premium player....is basically screwed. you get to keep those crappy vet rewards...woo hoo!, but pretty much after that you get squat!
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
I love this, Snow Globe. Made me laugh.
Since this thread is a repeat of several others and I enjoy repeating myself, I'll sum up what I think:
- A major problem currently is the lack of information about this on the Freedom website. The IO situation should be made abundantly clear so that people will know what to expect. They'll still be disappointed but will be able to manage that better than if they're surprised by it when they go Premium.
- Lack of IO's won't be a problem for new players. The game is playable with SO's. It's only a problem for people who've already invested a lot in IO's.
- Many people will feel it's a real problem. Telling them their opinion is wrong will do nothing but convince them you're not worth talking to. I wish I'd learn to take this advice myself, but it's just fun telling people they're wrong. So if like me you sometimes can't resist, at least try not to make it personal. They're not idiots or cheapskates with self entitlement problems. Even if you think that, keep it to yourself.
- It's not the end of the world. You might have to say goodbye to your uber characters, but you're still getting to play your beloved game for free. Great opportunity to play some new characters, that's what I've decided.
- My opinion is that allowing IO's to continue to be used, just not be able to slot them will benefit both players and the game (make more money, be less bug prone).
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Look I'm not trying to be obtuse but what isn't clear about the IO's on the Freedom website?|
Originally Posted by Dark Sweater
I love this, Snow Globe. Made me laugh.
Since this thread is a repeat of several others and I enjoy repeating myself, I'll sum up what I think:
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Inventions (IO's Invention Origin) are:
Purchasable on the Free accounts
Limited on the Premium accounts
Included on the VIP accounts
It's the whole "Limited" term that's fuzzy. If it was just purchasable it would have said "Purchasable" but it doesn't. So everyone read into what "Limited" meant.
Some thought it may mean no Set IOs but common ones were available. Maybe they limited recipe and iSalvage so you would be running back and forth between the market and where the crafting tables were, not to mention the Inf cap would limit what you could try to buy.
Everyone was wrong. I don't think anyone thought of a diamond shaped, multiple tiered scheme that would grant some Preemies with access while others are lumped in with the Freebies.
I understand why they did it. You don't want you long term subscribers to simply drop the the Premium level but on the other hand you would like to do something for former players who popped back in to check out the game, something better than what Freebies get.
If they came right out and told us "Limited" means some will get it, some won't based on the length of their previous subscription but it's still purchasable then they wouldn't have to fight the momentum of assumptions.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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No, it would be extra effort by the devs to benefit people who might be enticed to pay, but never will, because they forgot that you actually have to show the mule the carrot before you pull it away.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
Which would be extra work for the devs, to benefit customers who by definition aren't going to pay.
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Scenario: former player decides to give the game another look. The download the client, start the game and then are immediately faced with the need to either respec/level a second build or to re-subscribe for $2 a month instead of $15 if they wish to play their old characters.
If they weren't in the mood to subscribe for the last 2 years, then they have experienced absolutely nothing at this point to change their mind. The whole "entice them to resubscribe" part never gets to happen, because the first thing you hit them with is a pretty strict limitation instead of an enticement.
For new players it makes sense, because IOs aren't something you hit right away with brand new players, but for returning players it's backwards. You don't hit them with the "gimme money" spiel as soon as they walk in the door. You need to get them a little drunk first - show them a good time - then you hit them up for the cash.
Yes, he'll be playing for free. That part doesn't suck.
Actually, now that I think about it, the fact that his IO will stop working sucks for ME. I spent 75 merits on something that is going to be completely pointless soon. And I'd kind of feel like a jerk if I asked for it back.
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.