Nobody is advocating a controller not attacking. But damage is not where a controller's "true power" is. A controller will never be a better tank or never be a better blaster, they will always be better controllers. That's what we're saying. And I defy you to show me a viable build that does "tons" more damage compared to it's standard build. Maybe "some" more damage, but not tons. The idea that a controller is somehow just a "sidekick" if they don't emphasize damage, is silly and just plain wrong.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Don't know bout y'all, but my controller is a tankmage.
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Sorry, but I strongly disagree, especially with that last statement. When I play my Earth/Rad or Earth/Storm on teams, I can provide far more control than Plant, Fire or Illusion. On a team that already has high damage, especially lots of ranged AoE damage, that ability to provide large amounts of control and debuff is far, far more important that if I was on a controller who focused more on damage and less on control. In my experience, Controllers who provide control over damage are more valuable on larger teams. (I have run my Earth/Storm on several TFs lately. When the team has plenty of damage, that's my favortie controller to use. If the team is a bit light on damage, I can pull out my Plant/Kin.)|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
The reality of the game is, with the right primary you can make builds that support just as well as any support controller, control a little bit less and do a ton more damage, all at the same time. Damage doesn't come at the sacrifice of the controller's ability to be a force multiplier. The high-damage sets of fire, plant and illusion all offer remarkably good control and nothing stops a controller from mezzing, buffing and debuffing while they attack.
This game has never rewarded crippling overspecialization. Builds that combine good damage/buffdebuff/controls will always be better than low-damage sidekicks. |
On a lot of TFs, my Earth Controllers have been the only controller on a fast team. They didn't need damage, as there was already plenty of teammates who could kill things much faster than any controller. They needed a controller to keep the foes in place and keep the foes from doing damage to the team. The same thing works with Ice and Electric controllers. I have even been on Fire and Plant controllers where my controls were far more important than my damage . . . but both of those sets give up some added control for damage -- both have one-shot primary control powers that, once used, take a while to recharge (They also have an AoE Hold, but again, on a long timer). Earth and Mind have three AoE control options, at least one of which will be up virtually all the time. Ice and Electric have continual toggles. Illusion has PA and Spectral Terror, but Illusion is kind of a special case.
Those controllers who do more damage sacrifice some control. On large teams who already do a lot of AoE Damage, those controllers contribute less than controllers who can provide a lot of control.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Hrm... not 100% sure I agree with that, Local; I'm pretty sure that Plant/Storm is something of an outlier, true, but mine puts out enough control to deal with three or four x8/+0 spawns solo without any particular difficulty (unless they're confuse-resistant, in which case it drops down to two spawns with some difficulty :/), while still doing more than enough damage to wipe them out promptly. Admittedly, a respectable chunk of that damage is coming from the confused mobs, but it's still damage that I'm arguably responsible for.
Eh. *waggles hand* I'm not sure that controllers have to sacrifice as much control as one might think to gain solid damage. That being said, just about any pair of heroes or villains is greater than the sum of its parts in CoH.
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
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You have partially made my point. You said "mine puts out enough control to deal with three or four x8/+0 spawns solo . . ." You are trying to compare solo damage to team effectiveness. The problem is that the key power, Seeds, is a one-shot. Once you have used it, you are out of luck until it recharges. Yes, you have other options . . . Vines (but another one-shot with a long recharge), Creepers (doesn't really provide full control, moves slowly from group to group). The same thing happens with a Fire Controller -- once Flashfire is used, you are limited to an AoE Immob and a long-recharging PB AoE Hold.|
Originally Posted by TeChameleon
Hrm... not 100% sure I agree with that, Local; I'm pretty sure that Plant/Storm is something of an outlier, true, but mine puts out enough control to deal with three or four x8/+0 spawns solo without any particular difficulty (unless they're confuse-resistant, in which case it drops down to two spawns with some difficulty :/), while still doing more than enough damage to wipe them out promptly. Admittedly, a respectable chunk of that damage is coming from the confused mobs, but it's still damage that I'm arguably responsible for.
Eh. *waggles hand* I'm not sure that controllers have to sacrifice as much control as one might think to gain solid damage. That being said, just about any pair of heroes or villains is greater than the sum of its parts in CoH. |
What I'm saying is that on a fast moving team, that's not enough. The team doesn't need your damage -- they can kill stuff a lot faster than you can with your slow DoT from Roots or Hot Feet. They need control -- to keep the foes in one place, to keep the foes from attacking the squishier teammates, to reduce the damage taken by even the tougher teammates. They need buffs and debuffs so they are free to use their plentiful damage. They can kill stuff faster than you, and you can help them kill stuff faster with your controls and buffs/debuffs.
With your Plant/Storm: Assume you use Seeds, Roots on the first group, but in seconds, the team has wiped out that group. Maybe you got off Freezing Rain or maybe you didn't. By the time you get to the next group, Seeds hasn't recharged yet, so you might use Vines, and Freezing Rain if it is available. Now that group is wiped out, and Seeds still isn't back yet. Creepers? OK, that will provide some mitigation, but it certainly isn't complete. Next group, Creepers is creeping behind you, not there in time to help. Seeds might be up by then, so you use it. Next group, you don't have Seeds, Vines, Creepers . . . the best you can do is throw out Roots and use your secondary. That DoT from Roots isn't doing much for the team.
Compare that to, say, an Ice Controller. First group, Ice Slick then run in with Arctic Air. Next group, Ice Slick is recharging, but there's Glacier and still Arctic Air. Next group, you still have Arctic Air, so you follow the tank as soon as he grabs aggro. Next group, you still have AA and a few other tricks (like Frostbite, or even Flash Freeze). AA mitigates about 60-70% of the damage on melee teammates and it is always up. And that's not even taking into account the secondary.
Earth has three types of AoE control, one of which is usually up for the next group, with some other tricks always up (Quicksand, Stone Cages) for the next group. Electric has the sleep patch, Jolting Chain and the endurance drain toggle which are up pretty much for every group. Again, the secondary can make a big difference.
The point I'm making is that controllers are often, especially on big teams, better off being controllers than damage dealers.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I guess I play my controller a bit different than you guys.
Before I get into what I do, here is what the toon has:
70-ish smash/lethal res
35-ish fire res
36-ish def ranged
T4 rebirth, T3 cardiac, T4 ionic.
Transfusion (big heal up often)
Permacreep (actually 1.5 times)
Siphon speed (more recharge)
Hasten (more more recharge)
Transference (endless endurance)
Fulcrumshift (perma 300% dam boost)
Tactics (perception, more to hit)
Hover (keep opponents at range)
Fireblast (dps hard targets)
Fireball (this plus roots = big AOE attack chain)
Spirit Tree (LOL, I like to farm)
So, if this is not a recipe for a tankmage, I don't know what is.
Now for the gameplay, it's quite simple. Just hover in. At this point, you may have a ton of aggro and are possibly taking some damage. The high def and res (for MOST enemies) allows for some leeway when you have to hit transfusion or not. Generally, not. Heck, you could go with fly trap to soak some aggro.
Cast your creeps. Creeps will draw some aggro, cause knockdown, and do tons of damage. Now cast roots. Roots is important for two reasons here. It keeps targets at range since not all maps have a lot of head room, and it establishes containment on the lesser foes.
Fulcrum shift, then hit fireball. All mins and most leuts are now dead or dying. Vine entities are fulcrum shifted and are ripping apart most anything remaining. Mop up the bosses. Rinse and repeat. No need for team really.
If your opponents are a bit more difficult or you want to be lazy you could lead with seeds. Most times it is not necessary. Seeds is also a good way to get out of a tight situation.
For farming (hobby of mine), is where spirit tree shines. Cap res, cap range def (you are hitting single purp and orange insp as they come in) with 40-50 hp/sec regen (two trees out most of the time) means you survive. Not enough, rebirth.
Lol, I sometimes forget judgement since I'm having so much fun.
On a team, I'm usually doing the most damage. The times that I am not are when all mins and leuts are dead and there is only one AV or boss left to fulcrum off of. Good thing those brutes/tanks have come along.
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I play an Illusion/Rad, and I do a fair amount of damage(I do solo about 60-80% of the time), but as the team I'm on grows larger, the my damage output becomes less and less relevant. Put simple, once a team had 4+ people in it, assuming we have a dps person or two, I don't care about dealing damage. Sure my hold and pets deal some damage, and I'll throw a spectral wounds out there if I don't have anything else to do right this second, but my primary focus is to support my team.
That means I hold the difficult enemies, lay my debuffs down to help my team kill faster, summon PA when my tank is having trouble holding aggro, and jumping in to heal that scrapper who just accidentally took an alpha. Perhaps even more than defenders, controllers are team players, and on any sufficiently large and diverse enough team you're job is to shift the tides of battle to you're teams favor, not to kill things. Controller is the only class that doesn't get a damage focused powerset.
As for time, I personally think any set will benefit from time. Time looks to be a very strong and well rounded set, with buffing, debuffing, heals, and even some control. In fact it might just be the most well rounded defender set ever, it's biggest disadvantage being that it will take some time to mature as many of it's best abilities are late in the set.
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Yes, but that's only one situation. You may also be playing on a team of low-damage ATs who survive just fine but need help killing things. Your team may be fighting AVs or mez immune enemies where mezzes are useless but a little extra damage might help. You might even be soloing, blasphemy of blasphemies. That's why powersets that offer adequate damage and adequate control are better than those that specialize too heavily in one or the other. They can function well in a wider range of situations and that's more valuable than a slight advantage in one specific case.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
On a team that already has high damage, especially lots of ranged AoE damage, that ability to provide large amounts of control and debuff is far, far more important that if I was on a controller who focused more on damage and less on control.
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There's a lot that I find wrong with your posts, like how you fail to consider that controller aoe mezzes usually only mez Lts and minions, which die within seconds on aoe heavy teams anyway, so the advantage of control heavy sets is debatable. You seem to measure control ability only based on aoe mez power and disregard other more subtle advantages, e.g. illusion's ability to handle a wide range of mez-proof enemies. You fall into the classic trap of comparing fire and mind based on counting the number of AoE control powers. But most of all, I don't get the obsession with support. Controllers are great force multiplers, sure, but properly built, they can be powerful fighters in their own right. A character who's both is always going to be better than one who's only one or the other.
Jack of all trades, master of none - but better than a master of one!
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That depends on what you're trying to do with the controller. In a large mixed team that Earth/TA may be the best thing for the team, and their damage output is pretty horrible all things considered.
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Originally Posted by Laevateinn
That's why powersets that offer adequate damage and adequate control are better than those that specialize too heavily in one or the other.
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A brief review of Laveatinn's post history will reveal why this conversation is likely to go nowhere. Frankly, there are few posters whose positions and posting tactics I have less sympathy for. His/her misplaced elitism and refusal to even attempt to see why someone wouldn't care about always playing some kind of tank mage, combined with a history of making unprovoked personal attacks, is fairly well established.
Some controllers can do good damage but unless you plan on soloing, I'd slot for control over damage. On big teams there is plenty of damage. Your control is more helpful. Heck teams of 8 controllers optimized for control still have plenty of damage with their epic AOEs.
@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
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I'm more with Leviathan. (sp?) I know you've gone on to parse this more closely, but I still wonder if there's not some hangup on either historical or by-name definitions of controller role. I would have said myself: "there's no point in going overboard with control" when you can balance in other factors-- and a perfect example is choosing an aggressive primary, Plant or Fire, over Earth.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I'm with Mental Maden . . . this is not understanding the role of a controller. You have one powerset designed for control. You have a secondary designed for buff/debuff. Neither of the powersets are desiged as damage.
The true power of a controller is to support a team. Control + Buff/Debuff means that the damage dealers can wipe things out more quickly while taking less damage. |
De/Buff is what controllers can bring to teams that matters most. Mitigation via control and damage are both secondary, and [despite whatever I think about the now ancient control nerf and the missed opportunity to make control more relevant with AI changes/ambushes/mission goals] frankly I think the best examples of good control/good damage vs great control/mediocre damage (Plant or Fire vs Earth or Ice) would bear out that in teams the extra area damage will come out ahead. Could be wrong, I don't play much earth.
Haven't had any chance to study Time yet. If it's a super-aggressive de/buff set (like kin or storm on steroids-- I didn't get that impression), I can see an earth argument.
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| The point I'm making is that controllers are often, especially on big teams, better off being controllers than damage dealers. |
Normally I'm not one to propose "agree to disagree," but experience of frequently vs rarely dying on big teams in high-danger situations (e.g., the trials in question) probably constitutes a significant difference. For example, PUGs where 75% of toons are blueside-native damage-primaries, yeah, I'll want (to play or play with) an Earth controller. In a normal 8-man of my play experience, there's typically at least three de/buff sets, and one control set. And that's already over the "prefer fire/plant" threshold in my experience.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
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OT, do you find faults with the arguments (or posting tactics) the poster has made in this conversation? If so I trust you would point them out.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
A brief review of Laveatinn's post history will reveal why this conversation is likely to go nowhere. Frankly, there are few posters whose positions and posting tactics I have less sympathy for. His/her misplaced elitism and refusal to even attempt to see why someone wouldn't care about always playing some kind of tank mage, combined with a history of making unprovoked personal attacks, is fairly well established.
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Saying something like "conversations with so-and-so never go anywhere because of their personal tastes and tendency to make a lot of personal attacks," is ad hominem, for these purposes, it seems to me. Pot, kettle, black.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
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Supposing we agree that on big teams AoE damage outstrips most effects of ST damage, you may find a measure I've sometimes used relevant: DPS x Radius. I felt what I got was pretty intuitively sound. I don't know how to account for Brute and Blaster self-buffs as well as I do for containment, and these figures also don't assume any de/buff: I have Plant control at at ~485, and Fire control at ~414, compared with AR at ~1023 (this exposes the love my formula shows cones, and also doesn't include ignite), Fire Blast at ~924, Electric Blast at ~436, Psy blast at ~292 (these are all the blaster/primary version).|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
There are controllers that can do damage, sure. But I wouldn't call it "ridiculous" when compared to many Blasters or Scrappers or Brutes or even some Corrupters. The image of a controller as a damage dealer mainly comes from the ability to control AND Buff/debuff AND do damage in relative safety while solo. Most higher level damage from controllers is either AoE Damage over time (Fire, Plant) or single target (Illusion, Gravity, Mind). An AT designed for damage (which is pretty much all the others), will be able to put out more damage, especially when benefitting from the controls and buffs/debuffs that a controller can use to boost that other AT's damage production.
Some controller combos can put out a "ridiculous" amount of damage, like a team of Fire/Rads. |
Like I say, these reflect my intuitive sense of contained controller AoE dmg ballparking mediocre blast AoE dmg (before the brute & blaster self-buffs). I agree it's another story solo, but big team, you want a few AoE attacks to throw and let the people who don't have much besides dmg and self-def clean up the bosses and hanging-on lieutenants.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
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Originally Posted by Enantiodromos
OT, do you find faults with the arguments (or posting tactics) the poster has made in this conversation?
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I feel like there is a fairly obvious answer to this question.
Addendum: Just to restate my take on all of this, character slots and access to XP are not nearly scarce enough to justify skipping everything but the absolute best combos. While there is some argument that can be made about, say, Plant Control being very good, nothing can change the fact that I find it insufferably boring. In any case, what is "best" is extremely subjective and depends entirely on the context of what you are trying to do. IMO the worst you could do in this game is to fail to see it allows you to build a stable of characters who offer different advantages and play experiences.
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Since you've not pointed them out, I take it you withdraw your criticism of the poster's character. I always said you were a nice guy.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
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| ...character slots and access to XP are not nearly scarce enough to justify skipping everything but the absolute best combos. While there is some argument that can be made about, say, Plant Control being very good, nothing can change the fact that I find it insufferably boring.... |
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| ...In any case, what is "best" is extremely subjective and depends entirely on the context of what you are trying to do. |
Naturally, different mobs do have different resistances, damage types, and de/buff powers, and there is indeed a spectrum of best-solo-performance to best-large-team-performance, that makes some powers more effective in some circumstances and with certain objectives. There're even a few unusual objectives (mostly: travel-related) sprinkled through the game at which some powers will excel.
But these variables are mostly accounted for by the OP, though to be honest I know little about iTrial content, opponents, and maps. Keys sounds weird. I plan to pick up running my 50s through that content once the weather's cold.
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| IMO the worst you could do in this game is to fail to see it allows you to build a stable of characters who offer different advantages and play experiences. |
I still think you're a nice guy though.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
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No, I wouldn't say that's one situation -- it is a lot of situations. Depending upon your playstyle, it may be most situations. Not everyone plays a level 50+1 Controller fully tricked out with all the highest and best IOs and tier 4 Incarnates. And even then, some folks build their controllers to Control for teams, and not as damage dealers. Not everyone builds controllers to be softcapped. Leveling up and before the "end game" content, a controller built for team benefit will provide more overall benefit than one built for damage whenever the team has sufficient damage, which is most of the time.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Yes, but that's only one situation. You may also be playing on a team of low-damage ATs who survive just fine but need help killing things. Your team may be fighting AVs or mez immune enemies where mezzes are useless but a little extra damage might help. You might even be soloing, blasphemy of blasphemies. That's why powersets that offer adequate damage and adequate control are better than those that specialize too heavily in one or the other. They can function well in a wider range of situations and that's more valuable than a slight advantage in one specific case.
There's a lot that I find wrong with your posts, like how you fail to consider that controller aoe mezzes usually only mez Lts and minions, which die within seconds on aoe heavy teams anyway, so the advantage of control heavy sets is debatable. You seem to measure control ability only based on aoe mez power and disregard other more subtle advantages, e.g. illusion's ability to handle a wide range of mez-proof enemies. You fall into the classic trap of comparing fire and mind based on counting the number of AoE control powers. But most of all, I don't get the obsession with support. Controllers are great force multiplers, sure, but properly built, they can be powerful fighters in their own right. A character who's both is always going to be better than one who's only one or the other. Jack of all trades, master of none - but better than a master of one! |
I have been responding to your posts that assert that controllers who do lots of damage are better than low-damage controllers or controllers focused mainly on providing team support. You specifically said, "That's why powersets that offer adequate damage and adequate control are better than those that specialize too heavily in one or the other. They can function well in a wider range of situations and that's more valuable than a slight advantage in one specific case."
Most people in this game play damage-focused characters. That's not exactly surprising, since Damage defeats enemies and all other ATs have a Damage Primary or Secondary, or both. Even high damage controllers (Fire, Plant for AoE; Illusion, Grav, Mind for single target) can't come close to out-damaging the damage dealers ON TEAMS.
Obviously, this is very different solo. In the pre-containment, pre-IO days, soloing a controller was painfully slow. Containment allows a controller to do decent damage when used properly so a controller can solo even before pets. Some high level damage-focused controllers may be able to out-damage a low-damage Defender, but for the most part, any of the damage-dealing characters can out-damage a controller even with Containment.
To show why I disagree with your statement quoted above, take an Earth Controller in general and an Earth/Rad in particular. No question that it is a low damage build, mainly desiged for AoE control and buffing/debuffing. It provides awesome AoE control, some of which will affect bosses (Earthquake + Quicksand, Volcanic Gasses + Quicksand), or with some additional effort, will allow bosses to be controlled (Volcanic Gasses + Fossilize). In some cases, the secondary can have further effect on that ability (Volcanic Gasses + Choking Cloud or EM Pulse, or Stalagmites + a stun from the secondary like Thunderclap). An Earth/Rad can easily be the only controller on a fast team of 8, or even a slow team. Any of the three opening mez powers (Stalagmites+Stone Cages+Quicksand, Earthquake+Quicksand, or Volcanic Gasses+Quicksand) can then be followed up with the great Rad Debuffs. Two of those three AoE controls are persistant -- they continue to operate after the initial casting. The huge -Defense and substantial -Resistance will help the team kill off foes much faster. Keeping the foes in a tight group will also help the foes be defeated faster. AND that's all available leveling up, and not just on a level 50+1 Max IO End Game build. And yet that Earth/Rad controller, with very little damage, has the flexibility to provide all kinds of team benefit. Compare that to a Fire/Rad, who can provide decent control with Flashfire+Fire Cages (but it won't control bosses) or Cinders (will control bosses if combined with Char), but those controls won't be up every group. The slow DoT from Hot Feet is certainly nice for the right situation, and the continual control from Choking Cloud is certainly useful . . . but only if there is enough time. On larger teams, that slow DoT isn't contributing much. Bonfire isn't contributing lots of helpful damage, is it?
I have taken every control primary to 50, except for my level 47 Elec/Rad and my level 45 Mind/FF (but I also have a level 42 Mind/Storm and a level 43 Mind/Energy Dom). I have a few primaries with more than one level 50. I don't claim to be the game's top expert on Controllers, but I would say that I have a lot of experience with them. (I find it somewhat amusing that you claim that I "disregard" some subtle aspects of control sets such as Illusion's ability to handle mez-proof enemies. Uh, have you looked at my Ill/Rad guide? I talk a lot in there about all the benefits of Illusion. After taking Ill/Rad, Ill/Storm, Ill/TA and Ill/Cold all to 50+ and a variety of other Illusion controllers to higher levels, I think I have a pretty good idea of how to play Illusion and its strengths.) I frequently mention in my various posts how controllers have other forms of control other than the classic "hard" controls, and many of these other forms of control work on bosses.
But on larger teams, the Controller rarely has to worry about bosses. The Tanks, Scrappers, Brutes, Blasters, Corrupters, Stalkers and even the Dominators, HEATS and VEATS often focus on taking down the bosses first. So the AoE control that helps the team take down the larger groups of foes faster by keeping them together and debuffing them.
Don't misunderstand me . . . I like builds that are flexible enough to solo, small team and large team. My Ill/Rad guide specifically states that flexibility is one of the main strengths of an Ill/Rad. But the general tone of your post is "if your controller can't do a lot of damage, then your controller sucks" is not right. (You did not specifically say that, but I think that's a reasonable interpretation of your comments.) Low Damage Controllers focused on supporting a team can be optimal in the right situation, and that "right situation" is quite common.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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This is, I think, part of the root problem that Mental Maden has been objecting to on the Forums for a while. Not everyone is aiming for "power performance" in the incarnate trials. Many of the posts in this forum only discuss characters who have been Min-Maxed with the extremely expensive IO sets, PvP sets, and all Tier 4 Incarnates. Many of the posts act as if the only way to make a decent controller is to make a "tankmage" with capped defense. Sure, it is nice to have some characters who are designed that way. But other controllers are fun, too. And they can provide a substantial contribution to a team that will vary depending upon the team make-up and playstyles. Those can be great characters.|
Originally Posted by Enantiodromos
Haha. 'Extremely' subjective? To begin with, the objectives of the game, taken as a whole experience with the limitations it imposes, are in fact fairly narrow. (This is nothing like saying "the scope of things you can do while logged onto the game is extremely narrow." You can always file your nails and call it playing CoX, but that doesn't mean that Ice/Rad controllers, which afford a lot more time to file your nails than do Mind/Kin controllers, are better to play CoX with if you're a manicurophile.) Indeed, they're 'extremely' narrow if we're talking (we are) about objectives of power performance across entire sets in incarnate trials.
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Well, except Gravity. Gravity sucks.
(Actually, I had a lot of fun leveling up my Grav/Storm . . . but it was definitely sub-par in terms of "performance," and I don't really plan on doing another Gravity unless the Devs proliferate Traps.)
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Hrm... Local, either you're on teams that move significantly faster than the ones I'm used to (and based on the chatter in the ones I'm used to, they move pretty quick according to many people's expectations), or else you're grossly underestimating the amount of recharge I've got stuffed into my build; I often have seeds recharged fast enough to fire twice in a spawn that's even slightly problematic. The only teams that I've had difficulty getting controls off in are ones that are moving so fast that even on my blasters I'd have trouble getting more than one or two attacks off (admittedly, this is a subjective comparison, as I don't dual-box, but the speed is roughly equivalent by feel, at least).
As I said, I'm expecting that my build is something of a weird outlier- I already had so much recharge when Incarnates rolled around that I wound up going Musculature for more damage and the immobilization bonus (since a lot of my damage comes from stuff that would slap non-Rooted mobs all over the map), for example- and my playstyle is also a bit odd by all accounts, but I would contend that it is possible to have a high-damage controller that doesn't sacrifice dramatically in control.
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
Which is why I dont use illusion control anymore. Its WAY overused and people dont even choose the power for the "power" itself anymore, they only choose it as a cheap way to kill AVs without having to worry about aggro towards themselves. Bleh! I'm so over Illusion, honestly. I wouldnt mind the power getting nerfed. Fin!
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Time/Fire Defender.|
Originally Posted by Malakim
With Time manipulation coming out, which looks really cool, I'm looking to make the best time manipulator that I can.
I really loathe asking this on the boards, but I'd like to ask what power set out there that can go with TM to make the most effective character. 'Most effective' meaning most useful in incarnate trials... able to survive and overcome medium sized groups of +1s to +3s. I'm currently leaning towards a fire/time controller. Although I would have loved to make a grav/time for thematic reasons, I don't think grav/time would be as effective in trials. Perhaps */TM corruptor or MM would be better? Opinions? |
Defender gives the better buff/debuff numbers, so you're helping your team out more. Fire Blast gives a good amount of AOE and ST damage...AOE for cannon fodder death and ST for the AVs.
More AOE will also mean better chance of getting the higher tier rewards on the iTrials.
Not so sure how the slows will play out on iTrials, I dont find the enemies to be crawling when slows are used on them, but the +Defense will help everyone out, and the -Resist will help out damage. Some character wont notice the +RCH, while others will.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
The OP defined "best" as "'Most effective' meaning most useful in incarnate trials... able to survive and overcome medium sized groups of +1s to +3s."
I'm behind BrandX. Time/fire defender. I really don't notice doing much controlling needed on incarnate trials. Have enough damage on BAF, particularly AOE damage, and you don't really need to control the prisoners either.
With the consideration of Incarnate-hood, heavy IOing, and general survivability boost from time defense, just skip the controller part and play a defender for straight up damage.
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You may have a super-mega Recharge build, and that's great. That kind of build goes outside of the points I was trying to make, which was that controllers intended for team support can be better for large teams than controllers focused on damage. |
Originally Posted by TeChameleon
Hrm... Local, either you're on teams that move significantly faster than the ones I'm used to (and based on the chatter in the ones I'm used to, they move pretty quick according to many people's expectations), or else you're grossly underestimating the amount of recharge I've got stuffed into my build; I often have seeds recharged fast enough to fire twice in a spawn that's even slightly problematic. The only teams that I've had difficulty getting controls off in are ones that are moving so fast that even on my blasters I'd have trouble getting more than one or two attacks off (admittedly, this is a subjective comparison, as I don't dual-box, but the speed is roughly equivalent by feel, at least).
As I said, I'm expecting that my build is something of a weird outlier- I already had so much recharge when Incarnates rolled around that I wound up going Musculature for more damage and the immobilization bonus (since a lot of my damage comes from stuff that would slap non-Rooted mobs all over the map), for example- and my playstyle is also a bit odd by all accounts, but I would contend that it is possible to have a high-damage controller that doesn't sacrifice dramatically in control. |
But there are a few times when you may not have enough control on a Plant Controller . . . like when the group is too spread out to be caught in your Seeds cone, or a fight where there are lots of Adds, or where you have a lot of bosses. An Earth Controller can handle those situations with two of its three AoE controls being "persistant" controls instead of "one-shot" controls. Electric and Ice both have continual control powers and persistant controls vs one-shot powers. Certainly a high-recharge build lets you provide a lot more control than a Plant control normal build . . . but part of the point of the game is to level up and play characters before they get to that end-game build.
There seems to be a frequent attitude that low-damage controllers are somewhat useless. I'm just trying to suggest that low damage controllers can be very effective on larger teams, even without a "tankmage" build.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Because I already have a Fire/Dark Corrupter I'm probably going to go with a Ice/Time Corrupter or a Time/Ice Defender. Haven't really decided which yet. |
Originally Posted by Freem
The OP defined "best" as "'Most effective' meaning most useful in incarnate trials... able to survive and overcome medium sized groups of +1s to +3s."
I'm behind BrandX. Time/fire defender. I really don't notice doing much controlling needed on incarnate trials. Have enough damage on BAF, particularly AOE damage, and you don't really need to control the prisoners either. With the consideration of Incarnate-hood, heavy IOing, and general survivability boost from time defense, just skip the controller part and play a defender for straight up damage. |
Basically it'll come down to Scourge vs earlier and more potent Time powers. Scourge is gold with Rain powers and vs AVs.
Which version of Rain of Fire are defenders getting? The Blaster version, a la Ice Storm or a normalized version specific to Defenders?
This game has never rewarded crippling overspecialization. Builds that combine good damage/buffdebuff/controls will always be better than low-damage sidekicks.