The poor human thugs could use a upgrade too...
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No. Your hero rescues Flower Knight and then the two of them work together to defeat the foes. Your hero is an insignificant waste of oxygen compared to BaBs and Sister Psyche.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
BABs & Sister Psyche > Flower Knight
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| Regardless, a little explanation why you can't be defeated (since they would actually die in this scenario) in the new tutorial would be a good thing. The hospital got destroyed, so they can't use mediporters and the giant shivan is interfering w/ regular teleportation. |
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Originally Posted by Flarstux
Indeed. If the purpose of a tutorial is to help new players understand the game mechanics, this fails completely.
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
One thing to remember is that I don't think you can really call this a tutorial anymore. It's more like a hook. It's purpose is to make players want to stick around, to show off just how awesome and crazy this game can get. To provide players a taste of the kind of experience they'll be getting if they choose to continue playing.
In terms of actually learning the game, the Devs went a much smarter route and, instead of cramming an entire game's worth of knowledge in between the two shortest levels, they instead spread it out over the course of story arcs that immerse your character in the lore, provide a fun and interesting story and gameplay, and ensure you're not overloaded with knowledge. |
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That's all it's meant to be. It's still better at what it does than the old one, which was click on guy, read, run, click on other guy, read, run back, click on another guy, read, etc. With a couple interludes of hit Brawl 3 times to beat up a Contaminated/Prisoner.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
You can complete the new tutorial using four single uses of Brawl to tag the only actually required defeats in it and then let the NPCs do all the work. You cannot go below 1HP in it, so there's no danger or challenge or need to avoid mobs at all. The encounter with the Giant Shivan is a cutscene that you can run around in if you like.
I was all 'wow, coool' the first time I ran it. But when I slowed down and had a look at its substance, I saw the man behind the curtain lol. Eco. |
I'll take the new short tutorial any day, since the flipside of that is I'm out and playing at level 2 in under 5minutes, and we get the truly awesome Educational arcs with Twinshot or Dr. Graves. They're actually damn close to my two favorite arcs in the entire game, and if I'm not paying close attention, I don't even notice it's trying to teach me stuff. I feel more Heroic/Villainous in those lowbie arcs than I do in most 45-50 arcs.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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If being useless while the NPCs handle things is a 'taste of the experience' then no thank you. Might as well watch TV.
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
Just 'cause, ya know.
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Moving, avoiding obstacles, targeting enemies, attacking, reading instructions, these are all things the new tutorial would have taught me if I'd never played before. I'm not sure what you consider game mechanics, but I think those are some of the most basic and important, and that's what the tutorial was distilled down to.
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Originally Posted by Flarstux
Indeed. If the purpose of a tutorial is to help new players understand the game mechanics, this fails completely.
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I have a set of toons ( 1 per server ) that I've always left in Outbreak to assist any alts I may have wanted to send through for Isolator. They've been there since year 3 maybe 2..
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
If you'll miss Breakout, then Join Us!
Roll up a toon, park it in Breakout, and on Zoo Day, we can all party down at lvl 1!
I intentionally tested this early on. Toons I parked in Galaxy popped up in old Galaxy but immediately zoned to the Atlas 1st appearance steps..
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Originally Posted by Kinrad
Won't the same issue affect anyone who is currently logged out in Galaxy City as well? Since that is going away with I21?
Justice Shall Prevail Where The Laws Of Men Fail
22079 - Best MMO of the Year : "Heroes of Paragon City "
137005 - Introduction to Mission Architect : the Heroic Badge Collection
149433 - The Fall of Mender Moebius : Part 1 : The Beginning of the End
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You do realize that the NPCs are there for flavor, to make it more epic and allow the Freedom Phalanx/Longbow/Arachnos a chance to do something in the field, and that you actually do have to fight your own Shivans during a part, right?
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Originally Posted by Flarstux
If being useless while the NPCs handle things is a 'taste of the experience' then no thank you. Might as well watch TV.
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Clearly you missed the bit where there was a massive Air Strike. If you were really "looking behind the curtain" as you said, you'd see that said new heroes were one thing; bait.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
when they've just apparently easily defeated a GIANT SPACE ALIEN!
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Did you have any trouble learning these things when you did the old tutorial for the first time?
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Moving, avoiding obstacles, targeting enemies, attacking, reading instructions, these are all things the new tutorial would have taught me if I'd never played before. I'm not sure what you consider game mechanics, but I think those are some of the most basic and important, and that's what the tutorial was distilled down to.
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Nope. But I also didn't enjoy repeating the same actions, running down a long street needlessly, stopping to sort out a wall o'text every few moments, and basically being yo-yo'd around by a bunch of people standing around doing nothing.
Give me 5minutes to cover the basics and a really fun series of arcs to run alongside my normal missions for the more complicated things. Stop expecting me to remember all those things I read while I'm out in the game world, and just teach it to me while I'm "living" it.
This is that the new tutorial+arcs does, and they do it much more efficiently quickly and amusingly than the old.
If I were judging the game based on the tutorial and first 10 levels, CoH with Outbreak would get a 4, and CoH:Freedom would get an 8.
By most objective measures, while functional the old tutorial was barely adequate, and boring. The only reason to prefer it is nostalgia, and there's no objective measure for that.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Not a flavor I care for. I'd much rather encounter another new hero and team up with them to defeat foes that are within the limits of our capabilities than be a witness to the epic awesomeness of the Big Guns handling the situation without any need of help from my hero.|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
You do realize that the NPCs are there for flavor, to make it more epic and allow the Freedom Phalanx/Longbow/Arachnos a chance to do something in the field, and that you actually do have to fight your own Shivans during a part, right?
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Just a reminder, as it seems to have been lost in the shuffle: I'm not against the new tutorial. I don't like it, not the idea of it or the execution of it, but I'm not asking for it to be removed. What I would like is the *option* for those of us who prefer the old tutorials to be able to continue to do them. Are you opposed to this?
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Which was why we were given the option to skip the tutorial. Options are GOOD.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Nope. But I also didn't enjoy repeating the same actions, running down a long street needlessly, stopping to sort out a wall o'text every few moments, and basically being yo-yo'd around by a bunch of people standing around doing nothing.
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In the new tutorial you can run into a large group of 10 or 12 shivans and take them all down, sure, but since you cannot go below 1HP no matter how many hits you take, there's no challenge. You can in fact take down an i fi ite amount of shivans this way, as they'll respawn and keep attacking, but none of them give XP so it's pointless. |
Originally Posted by Flarstux
So in this new tutorial can I round up 4, 6, or 8 - or more - bad guys and attempt to defeat them all before they take me down? Because I can do that in the current ones. It's fun.
 Can we do THIS in the new tutorial? |
Playing with the 'I win' toggle enabled isn't as much fun as it sounds.
Edit: what I mean by pointless is you can literally go AFK whilst standing there and nothing will bad happen to your toon. Try that standing next to 2 Contaminated in Outbreak.
New players will be taught that 12 shivans cannot defeat them at lvl 1.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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And you think this is 'epic'? |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Clearly you missed the bit where there was a massive Air Strike. If you were really "looking behind the curtain" as you said, you'd see that said new heroes were one thing; bait.
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/baffled.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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it's more epic than herding lvl 1 Contaminated o.O
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As has been previously stated, those lvl 1 Contaminated can DEFEAT YOU and all those endless epic hordes of Shivans CANNOT.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
it's more epic than herding lvl 1 Contaminated o.O
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There's no 'epic' to it when you can't lose.
There's practically no way in regular gameplay you would ever die in the tutorial, even if you were completely new. I can't think of the right word, since manipulate or gaming the system don't seem to apply for what you do. But your pseudo danger is something I wouldn't consider since you have to go out of your way to do it. There's no real fear of being defeated when you have to kill what amounts to...6 Contaminated in hunts? and then a skippable mission.
I understand you'll be missing out on your fun, but this is such a extreme case of a niche thing to do that I can't see the Devs really considering keeping the old tutorials (even though I'm partial to Breakout) outside of Ouroboros.
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You can skip this tutorial too. Or did you miss that in your rush to complain about it?
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Originally Posted by Flarstux
Which was why we were given the option to skip the tutorial. Options are GOOD.
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Sure 'nuff. "Draw the monster out and distract it long enough for the bombs to drop" is a pretty classic gambit.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
And you think this is 'epic'?
/baffled. Eco |
There's perceptually epic and actually epic. I feel a lot more heroic going against that big ol monster than I ever did in the tutorial where the NPC I "rescued" proceeds to do more damage and kill more drug crazies than I can.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I don't always fight mass quantities of Contaminated in Breakout, nor do I get the Isolator badge on each and every hero, but the option to do so is there if I feel like it. I like that.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
There's practically no way in regular gameplay you would ever die in the tutorial, even if you were completely new. I can't think of the right word, since manipulate or gaming the system don't seem to apply for what you do. But your pseudo danger is something I wouldn't consider since you have to go out of your way to do it.
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There is no such option in the new tutorial. I don't like that.
Once the new and shiny has worn off this new one, what's going to be left? How long until this one is even more boring than the old one, because all it really amounts to is a glorified cut scene?
The option is there, it's just that one little detail.
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Getting a little personal there, eh?
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
You can skip this tutorial too. Or did you miss that in your rush to complain about it?
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One is better than none.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
The option is there, it's just that one little detail.
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Personally, I prefer the new tutorial over the old because the old was very dated, and I was pleased to see Coyote stick around in the new one. It is a great hook to the game and it does feel very epic for me- but I do agree that there's a bit of a drop off from "giant space goo monster" to "fight some Hellions in a cave". I'll agree that Praetoria probably has the best tutorial, because it introduces game mechanics in an unobtrusive way and puts you right in the heart of your own story.